To Be a Pianist Or Not to Be???

[olivarius]

First of all; hello everyone  (I’m new here) 

I have a question about wether I should try to become a professional pianist or not…
Advice from teachers and professionals is welcome…

I’ll explain my situation… (sorry it’t hard to keep it short)

I’m 17 years old (almost 18) and I will finish normal high school at the end of this school year (2004-2005).  I must say piano is my greatest passion.
My father is a professional pianist and my grandfather also plays a lot and very well. That’s probably why I got attracted so much by the piano.
 And my dream is to go at the conservatory (or high music academy, I don’t know how they call it in other countries).

But the problem is that I don’t know if I will be ready for it one day, because in fact I only started playing seriously when I was 16 (1 ½ year ago).
Before then, I could only play pieces like Bach’s first prelude,  the 1st movement of beethoven’s moonlight sonata,  then I started to look at the youth album (Schumann) and some easy peaces by chopin (prelude nr4). In September 2004 I started taking lessons every week (I know… I probably should have started sooner; my father never wanted to push me…I regret it in some way).

 Since I have a teacher ( who is very good btw) , I got more motivated I started to practice more and more; I learned Mozart’s “sonate facile”,  with her  and started to practice with hannon. I also learned two third of Chopin’s 20th nocturne by my own and some other pieces.  I also regularly download and print piano sheet music.
 The result is that now, I’m totally in love with piano and music; I couldn’t imagine life without this divine instrument.  Sometimes I try to compose a little bit or to improvise a bit.
I told my teacher about my “dream” to go to the conservatoty; she has been thinking for 10 seconds and then said it wasn’t impossible. Anyway I feel ready to do whatever needed to make up my arrears.
I asked my father for advise and he says it’s up to me;  I have a certain talent, according to my teacher and my father, but I have another problem: I can read notes, but very slowly and not fluently at all…  so that’s another thing to catch up

I read what I must be able to play and to know for the entrance examination of the conservatory in Brussels  ( https://www.kcb.be/eng/index.asp ). I must be able to play e.g. two etudes by chopin by hearth, and things like that… which is not my level yet… My teacher suggested to spend some years preparing the conservatory (one, maybe two years, or even three);

BUT I don’t know if it’s worth it … the only thing I know is that piano is the greatest dream I have (my other study options (Chinese language and culture for example) are only “interests of mine)

PLEASE; if anyone know what I should, or what I could do, or just knows some general advice for people like me… don’t hesitate, post it…

OlivariuS

PS (sorry for the quantity of text and the mistakes in english)

[willcowskitz]

I'm certainly not someone to tell you what to do, but according to how you feel about the instrument and music, you might later regret it if you didn't give it a try. It might be too early to enter the conservatory exams, but as your teacher said a year or a couple of work should produce results. Getting into a conservatory is very demanding in comparison to regular studies, which is why it requires some commitment. What I would probably do in your position, is, go study languages and culture if they're interests of yours which you think you could feed and keep up, and study piano at the same time to prepare for your actual passion of a career or whatever you want it to be. In any case, I don't think it is wise to hurry too much. Let ideas bounce around and give them time to settle and integrate in your mind with your self to create some sort of a vision of your future, then go for that vision.

Oh and your English seems fine to me.

[olivarius]

Hello Willcowskitz;

thanks fot your advice; i'll try to speak with some teachers from the conservatory; they probably kow more about it than i do;

you said that I shoudln't hurry too much, but i will have to make a choice "next year";

because, if i start studying something else than music, that will probably be time-consuming; so i will may not have enough time to prepare an eventual piano career;  plus:   i don't know how much it costs in your country; but here in belgium studying is quite expensive; and i don't think my wallet nor my mother will like that i start studying , say chinese, if i want to stop 2 years later. (subscription in an average faculty costs around 550euro's a year, without eating, transport, and without a room)

so, in total i have till september to think about it = 9months

Oh and your English seems fine to me.

thankyou;  i work on it

olivarius

[gyzzzmo]

Hi,
Often there are pre-studies for the conservatory. It means you are obliged to keep studying a lot of hours a day. Also piano pieces you dont really like to play.
This takes 'only' a year and might be a good indication if you want to start playing the piano profesionally or studying chineese.
Good luck,
Gyzzzmo

[olivarius]

mmm, i talked to someone who said that pre-conservatory studies don't exist anymore in belgium ; quite weird isn't  it??  i'll have to look it up...

[MarkAllison]

Hi,

I am new to the piano (two years) and therefore cannot advise you an what to do regarding piano, however I may be able to offer you some general career advice. The most successful people in any career are those that LOVE what they do. IF you don't love what you do, then you should stop doing it, and seriously consider pursuing what you do love doing.

It sounds like your decision is already made to me...

Go for it, and put your heart and soul into it. Never do anything half-heartedly - it sounds like your heart is fully committed already to music!

Mark.

[gyzzzmo]

Hi, me again,

you can follow the study in Holland (im dutch myself).
I dont know the price anymore, but i do know that its cheap.

[ehpianist]

I will not beat around the bush.  You started at 16?  Yes you can be a pianist, no you will never be professional, income-earning solo classical pianist in the traditional sense.  This should not stop you from pursuing your passion but you have to be realistic about your abilities and inventive in ways of putting them to use.  Perhaps you need to seriously think about what you see yourself doing with your piano ambitions.  Personally I think classical solo piano performance is overrated, and it is definitely oversaturated with world class performing machines. But there is also a whole gammut of other genres, concert oportunities and collaborations, fusion of styles, etc., which may be perfect for you and help you find your niche so that you can earn a living at it.

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[olivarius]

 

no you will never be professional, income-earning solo classical pianist in the traditional sense.

I love doing things, when people say i can't

but indeed, it's a fact that i have to be realistic (what doesn't mean i won't aim high enough)

OlivariuS

[Daniel_piano]

I will not beat around the bush.  You started at 16?  Yes you can be a pianist, no you will never be professional, income-earning solo classical pianist in the traditional sense. 

Do you realize that this is fallacious belief?
We've expanded our knowledge of learning and how the mind works in the last 50 years and its so absurd that accademies and piano teachers still believe on old useless and unscientific beliefs even if they do know that they don't know what they're talking about
They think they're so brilliant and smart with their heritage of useless tradiational beliefs that make no sense, but actually they ridicolous and people notice this

The most stupid thing of all is when a piano teacher say that if you start at 16 you can play jazz, rock or pianobar but you can't play classic music professionally
Can't the people see how haughty and snob is this ?
Just because they feel good in believing that classical pianists are gods and that their music is so difficolout that you need to start at 6 to learn it it doesn't mean it is true

But even if it were true that classical repertoire is harder than jazz, who said that you need to start at 6 to learn hard repertoire?
This goes against anything is known about biochemistry and physiology

I know lot of people who started in their 20 and got their diploma in 6 years and once you have a diploma you're able to play anything any other pianist is able to play

I would really like to know what in the 21th century is though to be obtained by starting at 6 that you can't obtained starting at 16?
There's nothing you can't get only because you're older, nothing, in any sense scientifical sense just on the limiting beliefs based on obsolete piano myths

Never is also a word that we should stop using in the new century, it means nothing
Not only it is completely useless to know if there are other classical pianists who started studying music later but actually there are many pianists who started later and even if not among the most famous, they are among all the other national pianists that every night play in some city
As a matter of fact being famous is not synonimous with being better, there are less known pianists who are way better than the famous ones

I hope olivarius will listen to your suggestion to think of other beautiful possibilities other than being a classical piano repertoire performer and I hope he won't listen or care for your suggestion that he can't become a classical piano repertoire performer just because he began studying piano at 16
Not only this is a useless and unscientific limiting belief and that's probably the result of so few people trying to be a concert pianist starting their studies later (that in turnis the result of so few concert pianist having started their studies later) but it goes against emphirical facts too since there are several pianists in the world who started their studies later or started when young and resumed their studies after a long pause

Wrong old beliefs are not made to last forever and I can't understand all this useless conservativism in piano teaching
There are thousands of notions who thought to be true or law and now are known to be false and uncorrect, the same should be for a lot of piano myths that were based on ignorance and mannerism while today could be based on science and superior knowledge


Daniel

[dreamaurora]

I think the issue here is not whether you started late or how well you play, but how creative or adaptable you are to the music market. I started piano way late than you with no foundation ( I started at 17, never touched piano and read a single note before in my life ). The traditional classical piano market is oversaturated like Elena have mentioned, and even those that have devoted their entire young age studying classical repertoire and winning major competitions find it hard to make a living solely by performing. Daniel, I don't think Elena is implying that you can't be a proficient classical pianist when you started late, instead there are way many external factors that affect us the late starters that prevent us from having a traditional classical pianist career, such as competition age limit, family objection, finance, juries' prejudice against late starters, and the list goes on.

However, this does not mean you can't have a classical piano career, like Elena said, you just have to be more creative about it. Program your recitals more creatively, create fusion arts ( e.g. recital + painting slide show or dance ), play your own composition, chamber music, conduct piano workshops, teach group classes at local music schools, music therapy, etc. All this can be accomplished regardless of your age, I know since I started late, I will never be a concert pianist in the vein of new artists such as Lang Lang or Yundili, but hey, that is no deterrent to pursue what you love. Do it for the passion and love, don't do it for the fame, and be creative, I'm sure you will be rewarded well in your pursuit.

[Daniel_piano]

Daniel, I don't think Elena is implying that you can't be a proficient classical pianist when you started late, instead there are way many external factors that affect us the late starters that prevent us from having a traditional classical pianist career, such as competition age limit, family objection, finance, juries' prejudice against late starters, and the list goes on.

The point is that all these issues are not necessarily always present
Prejudices is probably the only true limiting factor that it never stopped many late started to become concert pianists
Competition for example is a non issue since it is not an important to a career
In fact there's now a movement of pianist who believe competitions should be eliminated as they results in a competitive piano experience instead of a cooperative one, there pianists never attended any competition bu this never stopped them from making a career
Family ajbection is again a non issue since you can't let your family choose for you
That's like someone who could become a great painter or actor and the parents want him to be an attorney
It's better to be dead than to follow what others want you to do, because it would be like not living your life but someone else
Financies are again a non issue
Conservatories and music school are less expensive than any other university, they have the lower fees and the lower books and material cost
Money is a problem whether you start at young age or later, either they come from your parents or you get a part time job to have them but what school you do and what career you being and when doesn't chance the problems with money
Juries prejudices is a non issue if we talk about competition since they're obsolete, on the other hand it can be a problem if you need to be committed a concert
In this case the teather owner and the commitee will have to choose the pianist they think will attract more audience; hence more money
When there's money involved prejudices go away because they're too interested in earning to let their prejudices lose their money
So, if you're 30 and started at 20 but your music move people so much and people love your performances so much that when there is a concerto of your there's a lot of audience, any prejudices about age vahishes because they are witnessing that by hiring you they're making more money than hiring someone younger
It's like a job in comics drawing
Your diploma on art and drawing may be important as well as being young but if you're 70 and have no diploma but show them that you are able to draw and they aknowledge that your drawings will improve the comic as well as increasing the number of readers you get the job, no matter your age or your education

And again talking about age limit in competitions, olivarius is enough young for this not be a limitation till he is 26 or more

Remember that limitation always begins in our mind, and the first way to fight against limitations is to change our words
You said "instead there are way many external factors that affect us the late starters that prevent us from having a traditional classical pianist career" but actually the truth is "instead there are way many external factors that affect us the late starters that might prevent us from having a traditional classical pianist career
Because the truth is that nothing is really preventing the late starters, you just think that something could prevent you, but it's always a limiting hypothesis and many late starters have proved how this belief is wrong

Also late starters should have more self confidence, if they keep believing that anyone has prejudices against them they will never succeed in their goal, because that's what people that will judge you or will hire you will see the most: your self confidence and they are are ready to give you a chance if they see that you're the first one who believe in yourself

And that's probably the major difference why those who start as children are succeding more: because children have no limitations and they don't believe in limitation and if they want to play the piano and perform professionally they will always transmit a sense of selfe condifence and faith to people taht will judge them

However, this does not mean you can't have a classical piano career, like Elena said, you just have to be more creative about it. Program your recitals more creatively, create fusion arts ( e.g. recital + painting slide show or dance ), play your own composition, chamber music, conduct piano workshops, teach group classes at local music schools, music therapy, etc. All this can be accomplished regardless of your age, I know since I started late, I will never be a concert pianist in the vein of new artists such as Lang Lang or Yundili, but hey, that is no deterrent to pursue what you love. Do it for the passion and love, don't do it for the fame, and be creative, I'm sure you will be rewarded well in your pursuit.

I agree with that and this will be a path that olivarius will try to follow only when and if his attempt to become a professional classical repertoire piano concertist fails, then he will have an alternative
But to give up before ever trying just because of fear of prejudices and limiting beliefs when other people who had the gut to fight for what they wanted was successful in their attempt, is an error and error at which he will always look back with regret
His passion and dedication is too strong for him not to try to destroy all the absurd limitations out there, he has a lot of chance to succeed despite limiting people beliefs
We should not forget that it is because of people who fighted against limiting thoughs that we progressed so much, because of people that had so much passion to fight the wring establishement even if they were alone
Weren't for people like these afro-american people would still be in cotton fields, women would be able to vote or be managers and teachers, women would not be playing the piano, small handed people would not be playing the piano and we would all believe that the earth is flat and that the sun moves around the earth

Daniel

[dreamaurora]

Daniel, I think you have not been put in the same situation as me before, so you did not really understand what I'm saying.

Firstly and most importantly, finance. I don't know about Europe there, but the conservatories in Asia here are damn expensive, and those with the lower fees and scholarships only accept the really good performers, and you guess it, they are prejudiced against late starters ( the professor at the conservatory told me point blank that although he thinks I play well, he would give the chance to the younger people since they are more likely to be musicians than me, although I disagree vehemently with this, but you have to deal with such unreasonable people in the music world, yeah ). I have been working my butt off in the IT industry for one year, slogging from 9 am to 6 pm everyday plus overtime, with little time to practice, just so I have money to pay for piano lessons and my living expense. I quitted my job last year and is now living on teaching piano, but I have to say since my parents disagree with my passion and I am of working age, I am expected to support myself. That is not definitely an easy path to take.

[Daniel_piano]

Daniel, I think you have not been put in the same situation as me before, so you did not really understand what I'm saying.

Firstly and most importantly, finance. I don't know about Europe there, but the conservatories in Asia here are *** expensive, and those with the lower fees and scholarships only accept the really good performers, and you guess it, they are prejudiced against late starters ( the professor at the conservatory told me point blank that although he thinks I play well, he would give the chance to the younger people since they are more likely to be musicians than me, although I disagree vehemently with this, but you have to deal with such unreasonable people in the music world, yeah ). I have been working my butt off in the IT industry for one year, slogging from 9 am to 6 pm everyday plus overtime, with little time to practice, just so I have money to pay for piano lessons and my living expense. I quitted my job last year and is now living on teaching piano, but I have to say since my parents disagree with my passion and I am of working age, I am expected to support myself. That is not definitely an easy path to take.

We all have different experiences and stories
I'm too a problematic student, even though for reasons different than age and have had several problems with school and piano learning
But I know people who where in your same situation yet they eventually managed to succed in their goal despite prejudices against them
I too have been able to put at rest the prejudices against me and what has really helped me has been faith in myself and self confedence
Anytime I was given a negative answer I realized it was because of my attitude towards the possibilities for my situation, but people started giving me positive response and their help when I eventually became able to have total self confidence in myself and faith on people around me
The same for the people I've met and know that eventually succeed in their goal, they all had lot of seld confidence and faith unlike those who failed
I guess there must be some problem with Asian conservatories since 30% of the students in our conservatories are Asian
But how many teachers have you talked about?
You said the teacher at the conservatory said that he would give the chance to a younger person did you keep asking and looking for teachers?
I had to look for 30 schools and talked with over 60 teachers before I could get someone accepting me despite my condition and of course have given more than 25 auditions
I've met hundreds of narrow-minded, idiotic or simply ignorant people through my life but I never let myself believe they were the norm because I know if I kept looking I would have found what I was looking for and people willing to help me and give me a chance
And all this looking happened without me being really in the condition, including fincially, of doing it but I did it anyway
I understand the problem with your previous job and it's good that you know can support yourself doing what you love to do or at least inside the musical world but I've to say that if your job turn ended at 6 pm you had lot of time to practice since rarely you need more than 3 hours and those who are proud of practicing 6 hours at day are just wasting their time using a unpractical approach
One of the girl I know who started late and succed in becoming a concert pianist at the age of 28 didn't even own a piano and after finishing her turn at 7pm had to pay for a room in the comunal music school who was 45 minutes away from her house
But, and this is something I've learned from her, she was always happy and faithful and so nothing was too hard for her and she didn't care for prejudices
And I'd like to say that her parents simply did not approve her passion but the truth was that both died

So, both from experiences of other people and my personal experience I think I can say I know what you're talking about quite well
It doesn't change three important thruths about life

1) keep looking around, because there's always someone in the world who share your thoughts, believe in your abilities and is willing to help you and giving you a chance

2) If you have faith in yourself there's nothing people prejudices can do to prevent you from meeting your goals

3) just because a path is not definitely easy it doesn't mean it is impossible


Daniel

[ehpianist]

Daniel, I speak as I have seen through experience.  I think it is more of a crime for teachers to lie to their late starting students as I have seen many times, making them believe they will have a full fledged professional career in classical solo piano performance having them waste their time in the wrong path believing their teachers rather than come outright and say it ain't gonna happen, not in that way.  How many world-class pianists do you know that started when they were 16 or 17.  I know many decent pianists that can hold their own that began at this age but the technique and sound will never be as polished as that of someone who began at childhood with the *right* training.

I didn't say the guy can't be a pianist, he can do whatever he wants.  I was just being realistic about the true possibilities exclusively in the solo classical concert scene.  This is much more practical and honest than telling him "you can do anything you want" and have him waste time and effort and money in a path which is clearly going nowhere.  There are so many other musical possibilities, and more interesting in my opinion than solo classical performance.  Like I said, if he wants to make A LIVING at it, he has a much better chance at pursuing these.  If he wants to play solo recitals for his own personal fulfillment, I have no interest in stopping him and would be the first to urge him on.

Clearly, you would like to hear differently but it just ain't so.  No reason to beat around the bush.

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[Noah]

I think Elena's totally right. The worst thing to do would be to tell you what you want to hear and lead you in the wrong direction... The probability that'll you'll be able to earn a living from playing the piano is already ridiculously small if you're a talented music student, so if you're almost 18, seeing the repertoire you've played so far and that you can't read music 'fluently', this probability becomes... well, smaller.

Of course, there might still be a small chance that you'll make it, none of us can tell because none of us has actually heard you. If you're crazy enough to give it a try, then do it, but make sure you've got something to fall back on if it doesn't work for you in music.

You think 550 euros per year is expensive? Get real... Juilliard costs $22,850 per year in tuition fees only and the English music colleges charge about £1,200 per year.
Anyway, I hope you won't be discouraged by this post, but it's important that you know what you're getting into if you decide to go ahead and try to make a living out of being a musician.

Btw, there's no pre-college stuff in Belgium, but there's the whole academies system, which is basically the same thing, and just as good if you manage to find a good teacher.

[olivarius]

i hadn't hope for such intersting replies;
thank you very much for it; now i  have things i will be able into take in account, when thinking about my future... (this doens't mean you may not post anything anymore)

PS:

You think 550 euros per year is expensive? Get real... Juilliard costs $22,850 per year in tuition fees only and the English music colleges charge about £1,200 per year.

i was speaking about the average faculty price(non-piano) , that would be lost if i eventually would choose for piano after all...

olivarius

[Noah]

i was speaking about the average faculty price(non-piano) , that would be lost if i eventually would choose for piano after all...

Then... Harvard - $37,928 p.a. 
My point is, education in Belgium is really cheap, and you should realise how lucky you are to have access to good education for cheap. And if you study something else before you study music, the money will not be "lost".

[Daniel_piano]

Daniel, I speak as I have seen through experience.  I think it is more of a crime for teachers to lie to their late starting students as I have seen many times, making them believe they will have a full fledged professional career in classical solo piano performance having them waste their time in the wrong path believing their teachers rather than come outright and say it ain't gonna happen, not in that way. 

A teacher as no power over this
A teacher can't lie about anything as they don't know either how professional you can become
This is the same for writers
There are a lot of famous and rich writers who was told by their literature teacher that they would never become a writer
Piano teachers have very little power over anything and they even don't know how to play the piano properly the majority of time, let alone if they know anything about a possible career
A teacher saying to a 7 years old student  that he will become a piano concertist is lying the same as a teacher who is telling a 19 years old student that he will become a piano concertists, they better shut up and admit they can't know the future being normal human beings who do lot of mistakes and not semi-god who think to know everything
I know good teachers and valid teachers
A valid teacher is asked if you can become a piano concertist will answer you that she/he can't know as it depends on many factor including chance
A teacher who will try to answer such a question lis just a presumptuos bastard that should not teach and admit what he/she can't know

How many world-class pianists do you know that started when they were 16 or 17.

I don't care for world-class pianists
I don't buy the idiocy that they world class because they're the better ones
I've known less famous pianists who have a tecnique and a sound superior to any world-class pianist
I know several less famous classical repertoire piano performers who are making a living, who have a faithfull audience and started late or later than what is considered the norm
If you think about the most famous pianists you will see 60% of them had poor technique, think about Horowitz he was famous but that's surely was not because of his technique 

I know many decent pianists that can hold their own that began at this age but the technique and sound will never be as polished as that of someone who began at childhood with the *right* training.

So, now it's you that are believing to a fallacious belief
There is no concrete and sicentific reason why someone starting late could not have a more polished sound than someone being in ones childhood
Actually, I've meet several late starters who have a far better technique and polished sound than someone starting in ones childhood, that's because childhood starters are more likely to develop a bad technique and will grow using it and will neven understand or get the chance to solve it while someone starting late has more control over the coordination and more learning maturity to understand when something is wrong
So I don't know what this wrong ideas of yours that someone starting late will never have a polished sound as someone starting in ones childhoos but not only is a something you can't know for sure cause your experience is limited and therefore never is a wrong wrod to use but it goes against my experience with late starter piano concertists I know

I didn't say the guy can't be a pianist, he can do whatever he wants.  I was just being realistic about the true possibilities exclusively in the solo classical concert scene.  This is much more practical and honest than telling him

This is not honest, this is as dishonest as it can get like a literature teacher that tell someone that he/she will never become a writer
Teachers should be more humble and stop letting their students believe that they know things that they absolutely can't know as they don't have a magic sphere where they can see the future
Anyone telling what it will be possible or impossible for your future is being disgustingly dishonest but their ego don't permit these people to admit that they can't know what they're talking about they're just guessing

"you can do anything you want" and have him waste time and effort and money in a path which is clearly going nowhere.

You can't keep using words like "never" or "nowhere" like you were a fortune-teller because no matter how long have you studied the piano, how long have you been around the accademical beckground, how good is your technique this are thing you can't know, it's just plain presumption to believe that because you've had few drops in the ocean of experience you know are the owner of the absolute truth, no one is and certainly teachers are not
Teachers should teach and stop playing the faity seer as they have ruined more career than what they have been able to nurture and a lot of artists have been able to become famous and skilled only because they didn't believe their teachers and their ridicolous presumption

Clearly, you would like to hear differently but it just ain't so.  No reason to beat around the bush.

I don't need to hear differently, because I don't think it doesn't matter what I hear form a piano concertist, a teacher or student because they don't know, they never know, they can't know
So I don't need you telling me what the possibilities are since I've seen myself and you can't deny the experiences of late starters who know are piano concertists even though they're no world famous (hence they're probably better players than worse ones)
Think about Verdi
If it weren't for his determination in not believing in people like you that think that with few years of living your can predict the future, we sould have missed a lot of wonderful operas since he was neved admitted at the conservatory, he was said to be too old to learn music and the teachers he consulted told him he would have never become a composer

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

I think Elena's totally right. The worst thing to do would be to tell you what you want to hear and lead you in the wrong direction...

The worst thing to so is to be so presumptuos to pretend you can tell and know something that you can't know
It's not what you say that make the difference, people is not so stupid to take someone words as gospel, they eventually try and see for themselves what it will be because no one know since no of us can see into the future

The probability that'll you'll be able to earn a living from playing the piano is already ridiculously small if you're a talented music student, so if you're almost 18, seeing the repertoire you've played so far and that you can't read music 'fluently', this probability becomes... well, smaller.

Smaller is a better term, but to say "impossible" or "never" completely wrong since it is already happened before as we can't deny the truth that there are pianists who started late and there are thousands of instances in which a presumptuos teachers told a student she/he would never become a professional musician, writer or artist and then it happened
Teachers being unable to tell if someone will become famous or a professional artists are the norm compared to teacher who know how to nurture a talent and are intelligent enough to admit they can't know what his/her future will be

Of course, there might still be a small chance that you'll make it, none of us can tell because none of us has actually heard you. If you're crazy enough to give it a try, then do it, but make sure you've got something to fall back on if it doesn't work for you in music.

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying
No one know, no one can see the future and history is full of example if people who though something was impossible and the it happened or people whose future completely changed from what they planned it to be
If we were to listen to teachers who believe thwy're semi-gods or to follow any limitation and any "certain" and "secure" path we would never progress NEVER, because we should keep in mind that anytime something improved or progressed in human life it was because someone didn't follow the "easy" path, because someone had the gut to fight the establishement, because someone didn't follow the limiting though of what is known to be the norm, because someone chose not to believe in people who said "never" or "nowhere"

Because of the fact that no one can really know, because of several examples around us of people who did something hard or that was thought to be impossible, because of several examples in history in our experiences who managed to do what olivarius is trying to do and because of the emphirical truth on how useless and wrong are usually previsions from teachers and musicians he should try, he should definitely try and of course keep an alternative in case it doesn't work, but then again planning the future is just an illusion you can keep any alternative you want and attend all the universities you want but no one know for sure what his/her future will be and schools and universities don't guarantee anything

We should always imagine how detrimental could have been suggestion containing the phrases such as "be realistic" "never" "nowhere" and so on
Just think how thousands of genius and innovators we would have missed if they would have listened to people spitting limitations beliefs on their face
If you start thinking about them now you'll end the next month listing them, but I want to give some hint of what the world would be if humanity had listened to the "be realistic" phrase: no 90% of all the classical repertoire, no women musicians, no women composers, no cds, no copyright, no cinemas, no computers, no electricity, no afro-american musicians, no afro-american composers, no ecology, no books, no no 90% of all existing literature ....  does anything want to continue with the list?


Daniel

[ehpianist]

Daniel, I wish you the best of luck and much success at everything you do. 

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[xvimbi]

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying
No one know, no one can see the future and history is full of example if people who though something was impossible and the it happened or people whose future completely changed from what they planned it to be
If we were to listen to teachers who believe thwy're semi-gods or to follow any limitation and any "certain" and "secure" path we would never progress NEVER, because we should keep in mind that anytime something improved or progressed in human life it was because someone didn't follow the "easy" path, because someone had the gut to fight the establishement, because someone didn't follow the limiting though of what is known to be the norm, because someone chose not to believe in people who said "never" or "nowhere"

Wow, Daniel, you are on the war path. Calm down

You state correctly that without trying one does not know, and without those who do try we would not make any progress. But you neglect the fact that for those few who do succeed, there are many more who fail. I think it was absolutely honest for Elena to say that the chances are slim. I would give her the doubt of being somebody who knows the scene fairly well (assuming that she indeed is who she appears to be - one never knows).

Experience has demonstrated that the younger you start the higher the chances of success. I'd say, whoever wants to give it a try should give it a try, but they should not be surprised if it doesn't work out. That is the message Elena tried to convey, and I don't see anything dishonest, fallacious, pretentious, semi-godessness or whatever in it.

[Daniel_piano]

Wow, Daniel, you are on the war path. Calm down

You state correctly that without trying one does not know, and without those who do try we would not make any progress. But you neglect the fact that for those few who do succeed, there are many more who fail. I think it was absolutely honest for Elena to say that the chances are slim.

I have no problem with that
Saying that the chances are slim, that the path with be hard is correct
The problem is that Elena didn't say this
He said there are no chances and that he better not try
I see a lot of difference between "might be not easy" "there are few chances" and "it's impossible"; the same difference that there's between succeding and failing for all those pianists who started late


Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

Daniel, I wish you the best of luck and much success at everything you do. 

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

Thanks, you too
Anyway I was not arguing about problem I have, I've other problems but not age or late beginner problems
So, I was defending a "cause" that doesn't belong to my situation

Daniel

[Daniel_piano]

Wow, Daniel, you are on the war path. Calm down

I'm sorry, it didn't mean to sound aggressive
It's just that I began promoting "free though" when I've experienced what "put your life on someone else or an expert" means, because it meant death to me and I will never forget the lesson I've learned
People who think teachers know all and you should neve question them and thin kfor yourself, people who think that attorneys know everything and you can leave it to them, people who think that doctors know everything and that you can put your whole life on their hands
All these "experts" should start being honest and telling peope that they do lot of mistakes and there are a lot of things they don't know including the ones they would like people to think they know
Free thought mean that you can need at the 30% the help of an expert or the suggestion of someone in the field, but the other 70% must come from you, from your mind and your free thoughts
No one can take someonelse words as gospel not even if they have a Ph.D in surgery
Doing so can only lead someone to disasters and pain
My uncle is a well known writer in my region and he is making a living writing books that people love and identify with, someone even said to him once that reading his book has saved his life
He started at 30 because teachers and writers he consulted told him he had no chance and he had so much faith in their words, like they certainly had to know
He learned the truth eventually
I can't stand it when I see a human being so brainwashed by this idea that he can put his life, his money, his deducation, his family, his health, his future on someone else hands just because "he/she is an expert, he has a Ph.D, he must know for sure"
The world will go really nowhere if people don't begin using their own mind instead of relying on someone else counseling like he/she were protected by all the good instintutions and people working in it, hogwash; they're all human beings with their fears, with their lack of knowledges and daily mistakes and neglicence .. but they lack the humbleness to admit this and lot of people lives get ruined and destroyed

No one should put all ones faith in an expert, no one should take each work of the expert like gospel, no one should think the expert even knows what he/she can't absolutely know ... be it a teacher, an attorney or a doctor
I can't understand how can people live their unaware and ignorant lives while someone else out there is playing havoc with their future so willing to consider themselves inferior compared to all the "good people who can do our thinking task while we shut our brain down"; I can't understand who they can be so naive

Daniel

[ehpianist]

No one should put all ones faith in an expert, no one should take each work of the expert like gospel, no one should think the expert even knows what he/she can't absolutely know ... be it a teacher, an attorney or a doctor
I can't understand how can people live their unaware and ignorant lives while someone else out there is playing havoc with their future

I agree with you 100%

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com