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Playing Double note (Read 2452 times)

Offline ivchks

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Playing Double note
« on: April 14, 2016, 03:20:27 PM »
Hello :)

How do you guys actually practise double notes and get the 2 notes be played simultaneously and get them really fast? Sometimes when I just don't focus on practising them for a while, my fingers will just "misbehave". Any advices will be most welcomed. ( and by double notes I mean,for example, you play C and E key with your 2 and 4 fingers and then play D and F with 3 and 5 fingers). 

Cheers

Offline jimroof

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Re: Playing Double note
«Reply #1 on: April 14, 2016, 03:45:53 PM »
The answer that most people would give you, by EXAMPLE, would be lots and lots of fast and sloppy practice...

But we all know the answer is just the opposite.  Slow and arduous work is always the answer to this kind of question.

MY question is - what piece requires a lot of 2/4 3/5 work?  Even the thirds etude (Opus 25. #6) manages to avoid this combination with rare exceptions.

Brahms' second piano concerto DOES have thirds that run very rapidly across the 1/3 2/4 3/5 combination, but in most cases there are other things going on that serve to somewhat mask what is already a blur of speed. 
Chopin Ballades
Chopin Scherzos 2 and 3
Mephisto Waltz 1
Beethoven Piano Concerto 3
Schumann Concerto Am
Ginastera Piano Sonata
L'isle Joyeuse
Feux d'Artifice
Prokofiev Sonata Dm

Offline adodd81802

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Re: Playing Double note
«Reply #2 on: April 14, 2016, 04:00:13 PM »
I'd agree with Jimroof here. Playing 3rds is one thing, but there are often better fingering's than 2/4 + 3/5 alternating.

1/3+2/4 is obviously first, but can become tiring with the 3/4 alternating. On a lot of Chopin pieces, I think you can get away alternate, more comfortable fingerings, eg for me, 1/4 + 2/5 which feels quite nice as well as 1/4  + 2/3, really I find anything that combines the on/off use off the thumb, allows you to employ your whole hand and forearm more and takes the strain away from the fingers.

I think the 3rds in trills technique should be competent just as the 4/5 trill should be in that it shouldn't feel comfortable, but you should not consider it a core technique that needs to be refined.

Unless you're silly like Jimroof and decide to tackle Chopins Etude in 3rds ;)
"England is a country of pianos, they are everywhere."

Offline preludetr

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Re: Playing Double note
«Reply #3 on: April 14, 2016, 05:18:35 PM »
It seems like they come easily to some people and not to others. Personally, I find third trills are a huge stumbling block in pieces like Chopin's Barcarolle and Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso. For third trills, wrist rotation isn't going to help you much, and you need to use a lot of finger action.

Offline mjames

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Re: Playing Double note
«Reply #4 on: April 14, 2016, 06:20:52 PM »
omg i want to play the barcarolle one day so how the heck do you even get to playing those double trills ;(
Composing/improvising

Chopin's 4th ballade and 3rd sonata.
Scriabin Op. 42 no. 1, 2, and 3.
Bach Partita No.4

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Playing Double note
«Reply #5 on: April 14, 2016, 11:17:56 PM »
Hello :)

How do you guys actually practise double notes and get the 2 notes be played simultaneously and get them really fast? Sometimes when I just don't focus on practising them for a while, my fingers will just "misbehave". Any advices will be most welcomed. ( and by double notes I mean,for example, you play C and E key with your 2 and 4 fingers and then play D and F with 3 and 5 fingers). 

Cheers
In answer, I proffer an answer that I posted in 2013, which specifically addresses the kinesiology associated with playing any note/notes.  It is taught by my coach, Dr. Thomas Mark ("What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body").

"Finally, for those who want to know something about how he teaches key attack, I enclose a link to his bio from his website.

As an example, when he teaches double notes or octaves, he uses the Tobias Matthay philosophy of key push back.  One lets the physical action of the key propel you on to the next one.

When I play the opening section of the 3rd movement of the Schumann Concerto, I just let the piano do the work for me when I come to the double notes.

www.pianomap.com"

Please reply by PM if you desire further comment.

Offline bzzzzzt

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Re: Playing Double note
«Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 05:24:57 AM »
I found these tips useful (Josh Wright)

Beethoven 2/3
Chopin 10/9

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Playing Double note
«Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 10:59:37 PM »
I found these tips useful (Josh Wright)



Thank you for your suggestion, however, did you notice the size of this man's hands?  This is directly related to the common tragedy experienced by most university piano majors.

That is they study under someone who has a tremendous amount of natural technical ability, who doesn't even remotely know how to teach it to their students.  Accordingly, when then get a student who has similar natural ability, then that student is featured and then everyone raves about that particular teacher's greatness.

Conversely, my recommendation for thirds is based on the philosophy/premise of minimal key attack from the surface of the key (Tobias Matthay), which allows for the key push back to the next set of notes (single or double).

When the person on this video holds his hand up high (or the pianist he sites who recommends playing with high fingers), the amount of actual key depression is the same.  Except, with high-stepping fingers, it does one no good when attempting to play the rest of the repertoire from the surface of the key.

Once again, I learned the concept of minimal key depression from my late teacher (Robert Weaver), who taught it as five finger scale quick soft staccato with normal hand position.  Glenn Gould called it "tapping"  And, Earl Wild always stressed playing from the surface of the keys, which he was taught as a teenager by Egon Petri.

For those who wish for more specifics, I offer, (for free, as always) my further comments, as a PM, regarding this matter.