How important are Etudes?

[immortalbeloved]

Hey everyone,

I was wondering how important, in your opinion, etudes are. I posted here a while ago about my teacher's reluctance to give me etudes to study, since it might interfere with my other pieces (classical, pop, and jazz). But, I don't know, for some reason I think just doing scales, arepegios, and triads (especially triads) are useful to a certain point only.

Do some of your teachers follow this model as well? And if so, do you like it?

(on a side note, I almost have to force my teacher to let me study certain composers, like Bach. I also know she dislikes Beethoven to a certain extent and can still remember her face when I told her I chose to study his Sonatina . . . urgh. . . . I also begged for a grade 5 Mozart piece and because she could not find one in the RCM book decided to not look for one and give me one).

[preludetr]

Your teacher doesn't want you to play etudes, Bach, Beethoven or Mozart? Sounds like it's time to find a new teacher.

[feddera]

Haha, the poster above me does have a point.

Anyway, my advice would be to at least try some etudes and see how it works for you. You really don't need your teachers permission to work on something on your own. Go to imslp.org, and print out the first two etudes from Czerny's op.299. Should only take a couple of days to memorize both.

[adodd81802]

Hey everyone,

I was wondering how important, in your opinion, etudes are. I posted here a while ago about my teacher's reluctance to give me etudes to study, since it might interfere with my other pieces (classical, pop, and jazz). But, I don't know, for some reason I think just doing scales, arepegios, and triads (especially triads) are useful to a certain point only.

Do some of your teachers follow this model as well? And if so, do you like it?

(on a side note, I almost have to force my teacher to let me study certain composers, like Bach. I also know she dislikes Beethoven to a certain extent and can still remember her face when I told her I chose to study his Sonatina . . . urgh. . . . I also begged for a grade 5 Mozart piece and because she could not find one in the RCM book decided to not look for one and give me one).

I find it interesting that you don't ask your teacher these very questions. You need the knowledge to make an informed decision.

If she says "because I don't want you to" or some fobbed off excuse like that you know she's not a good teacher.
However if she comes out with 5-6 sensible reasons then you can decide from there. You are also doing quite a wide set of genre's maybe she doesn't want you to have too much on your plate at the moment.

Teachers will always have their ways and preferences, mine is the opposite, loves Beethoven, hasn't suggested any Bach as of yet but has introduced me to a lot of classical outside of the "romantic" style music I am used to.

There is a lot to be learned from all styles and pieces, and you must not limit yourself also to what your teacher is giving you, what stops you from learning an Etude or another piece by yourself and just presenting it to her for some comments?

[marijn1999]

All I can tell you is that pretty much everything can be useful If you have any idea what you want to achieve and if you know if that certain etudes or piece can help you achieve it. I think etudes are a great way to improve not your technical ability (because you can't improve your overall technique, since it doesn't exist) but to learn how to tackle a piece to a perfect level.

Since etudes usually present one certain kind of technique which you'll have to deal with, you will be able to perfect that certain technique for that piece (and that piece only) to the highest level and learn the piece very thorougly.

On the other side, I don't think etudes should be played too much since most technique and knowledge is gained by actually playing pieces. But they are great ways to get an idea on how to practice a certain kind of difficulty.

BW,
Marijn

[visitor]

helps if OP can differentiate between types of etudes. there are those which are more suited to exploiting a technical challenge at the highest levels of pianism and virtuosity. these works typically are not really ideally suited to 'building technique' , they tend to work best in the context of an already fully developed apparatus at the keyboard and harnessing/refining it within a musical context.

generally these works are just as much performance or artistic music lit than they are 'technique' pieces, or learning /pedagogy type works. ie advanced level works of Chopin, Liszt, Scriabin, Lyupunovm Bartok, Debussy, Raphling, Kapustin, etc.

then there's earlier type etudes like Czerny, Hummel, and the like. there's some middle ground to be found w Moszkowski and similar.

all of these can be thought of as tools. so the more specific the job is, the better suited a specialized tool can be.

how useful are needle nose pliers, pretty useful for certain tasks. how useful is  a hammer, it's a broader range, so useful for most tasks, completely useless as well for many others.

[briansaddleback]

Etudes are important to those who want to play etudes.

[immortalbeloved]

I find it interesting that you don't ask your teacher these very questions. You need the knowledge to make an informed decision.

If she says "because I don't want you to" or some fobbed off excuse like that you know she's not a good teacher.
However if she comes out with 5-6 sensible reasons then you can decide from there. You are also doing quite a wide set of genre's maybe she doesn't want you to have too much on your plate at the moment.

That is it. She says if I have etudes, on top of classical, jazz, and pop, than it will be too much. But, what annoys me, is she clearly sees how much I want to study them and just does not budge.

I know I can study my own and present it to her (like I did with Bach) but does that not seem like me openly ''rebelling'' against her, and might not that cause some tension?

[immortalbeloved]

Your teacher doesn't want you to play etudes, Bach, Beethoven or Mozart? Sounds like it's time to find a new teacher.

It's not that she doesn't want me to, it is that she follows the RCM guides and pretty much selects what she likes from them. One day I was sight reading some of the pieces and I played the Bach and fell in love with it so I just played it the next week and asked for her thoughts. Since Mozart is not in the RCM books, and even though I always ask for him and talk about him, I would have hoped she could have found me one bloody level five piece.

And with etudes, she gives me a reason, but I have asked her so much about it that I thought she would have budged a little bit. But no.

I know I can self-study and just tell her ''well, can I show you this etc'' but that seems like openly rebelling. I already did that with a Bach piece. I just don't want undue tension.

[immortalbeloved]

helps if OP can differentiate between types of etudes. there are those which are more suited to exploiting a technical challenge at the highest levels of pianism and virtuosity. these works typically are not really ideally suited to 'building technique' , they tend to work best in the context of an already fully developed apparatus at the keyboard and harnessing/refining it within a musical context.

I would have hoped my teacher could help on this issue. I remember once she asked me why I want to study etudes and I said ''to play Chopins and Liszt's etudes'' and she kind of smiled and said that is AR stuff. I said ''well, I have to beign somewhere''

[visitor]

I would have hoped my teacher could help on this issue. I remember once she asked me why I want to study etudes and I said ''to play Chopins and Liszt's etudes'' and she kind of smiled and said that is AR stuff. I said ''well, I have to beign somewhere''

fair. fyi you don't have to study etudes to 'work up' to chopin and liszt type etudes. just consider them top tier short works, your work up of pieces like sonatas, character pieces, etc will provide adequate prep provided they are of sufficient difficulty. volume total music studied is more important than ensuring you start w etudes.
personally, their sort of boring to learn, the harder ones require so much time and repetition to nail and they can and tend to be  a little one sided for the most part, it may sound cool when you watch/listen to them, but they are tough and working them up is not exactly fun.

[outin]

It's a bit strange that your teacher does not want you to study an etude every now and then if you want to... After all you can replace a classical piece with one... Does she teach you specific techniques when you study your pieces? She could as well teach you some when you are learning an etude. Or did you give her the impression that you actually want to study concert etudes?

I personally don't like most etudes because I have a really hard time memorizing anything repetitive. So after I have conquered the technical challenge the etudes tend to become a drag...I have learned quite a few "half etudes"...maybe your teacher after observing you thinks you wouldn't really have the patience either?

[immortalbeloved]

fair. fyi you don't have to study etudes to 'work up' to chopin and liszt type etudes. just consider them top tier short works, your work up of pieces like sonatas, character pieces, etc will provide adequate prep provided they are of sufficient difficulty. volume total music studied is more important than ensuring you start w etudes.
personally, their sort of boring to learn, the harder ones require so much time and repetition to nail and they can and tend to be  a little one sided for the most part, it may sound cool when you watch/listen to them, but they are tough and working them up is not exactly fun.

That is a great point, actually, it makes me quite happy. Your right, I can just consider them top tier works. But still though . . . cant certain etudes help you close weak holes in your playing? Can't they give u tools to attack level 6,7,8 repotoire pieces etc?

[immortalbeloved]

It's a bit strange that your teacher does not want you to study an etude every now and then if you want to... After all you can replace a classical piece with one... Does she teach you specific techniques when you study your pieces? She could as well teach you some when you are learning an etude. Or did you give her the impression that you actually want to study concert etudes?

On the technical side, she teaches me scales, arpeggios, and triads. I love them and understand their importance (not the triads however). She mentioned when I get to level 5 she would give me some but has not yet.

No I did not give her the impression I want to study concert etudes, though she says my number one issue in piano will be my impatience and wanting to progress quickly. But I did not give her the impression that I want to advance that far! I asked her for czerny that was it.

[immortalbeloved]

Haha, the poster above me does have a point.

Anyway, my advice would be to at least try some etudes and see how it works for you. You really don't need your teachers permission to work on something on your own. Go to imslp.org, and print out the first two etudes from Czerny's op.299. Should only take a couple of days to memorize both.

See! I don't even know what level those etudes are, Are they considered grad 5 pieces? I am in grade 5 RCM? I'll give them a look today, not on this iPad, and hopefully they provide me with more technical tools. Thank you for referencing them

[outin]

On the technical side, she teaches me scales, arpeggios, and triads. I love them and understand their importance (not the triads however). She mentioned when I get to level 5 she would give me some but has not yet.

No I did not give her the impression I want to study concert etudes, though she says my number one issue in piano will be my impatience and wanting to progress quickly. But I did not give her the impression that I want to advance that far! I asked her for czerny that was it.

Technique is much more than just scales, arps and such. It's how you make the things in your pieces sound the best with least strain on your system.

[outin]

On the technical side, she teaches me scales, arpeggios, and triads. I love them and understand their importance (not the triads however). She mentioned when I get to level 5 she would give me some but has not yet.

No I did not give her the impression I want to study concert etudes, though she says my number one issue in piano will be my impatience and wanting to progress quickly. But I did not give her the impression that I want to advance that far! I asked her for czerny that was it.

Technique is much more than just scales, arps and such. It's how you make the things in your pieces sound the best with least strain on your system.

I have to say that if I was your teacher and you asked for Czerny I would think that you just don't know what you are asking for

[immortalbeloved]

[quote author=outin link=topic=61393.msg657768#msg657768 date=1460996834

I have to say that if I was your teacher and you asked for Czerny I would think that you just don't know what you are asking for
[/quote]

Explain sir! Is czerny considered useless? Oh the difficulty of piano

[outin]

[quote author=outin link=topic=61393.msg657768#msg657768 date=1460996834

I have to say that if I was your teacher and you asked for Czerny I would think that you just don't know what you are asking for


Explain sir! Is czerny considered useless? Oh the difficulty of piano

Useless? Probably not. Boring and of little musical value? Yes, if you ask me

[1piano4joe]

Hi immortalbeloved,

I am currently in RCM grade 5. I have been studying from the RCM syllabus since the preparatory levels. I do almost every single etude in the RCM etude book. I think they are very important. I did 60 preparatory pieces, over 50 grade ones, 50 grade twos, 40 grade threes of which 17 were etudes and I have just recently finished only 30 grade fours of which 12 were etudes.

There is Mozart in the syllabus if not in the books:

Grade 1:

1. Minuet in F major, k2
2. Minuet in d minor, Leopold
3. bourree in e minor, Leopold

Grade 2:

1. Allegro in F major, k1c
2. Minuet in G major, k1e
3. Menuetto in C major, k6

Grade 3:

1. Allegro in Bb major, k3
2. Menuetto II in F major, k6
3. Minuet in D major, k7

Grade 4:

1. Minuet in D major, k94/73h

In Grade 5, I am currently working on:

1. Intrada in C major by Graupner (List A Baroque)
2. Beethoven German Dance in D major WoO 13 no. 1 (List B Classical))
3. Mozart Minuet in F major k5 (List B classical)

I am working on other pieces as well but am mentioning these since they are NOT in the RCM book but ARE in the syllabus. I've finished completely 6 of the etudes in the Grade 5 book. The rest are in various stages of completion. It will probably take me the rest of the year to finish Grade 5 but I am in no hurry. I like to be thorough plus I do study pieces from both the earlier grades and some from a Grade or two higher.

There are two RCM syllabi. The older 2008 and the current 2015 both of which are available free online. I consult them frequently since I don't want to be limited to just the pieces in the book.  

I hope I have been helpful, Joe.

P.S. There is plenty of Bach, Beethoven and Mozart in the RCM syllabus. There is even a "POP" syllabus in RCM which is also available free online.

[immortalbeloved]

WOW 1piano4joe!

Thank you. I have to check out the syllabus, because for my RCM book 5 the only Beethoven I have is his sonatina Anh 5, not the ones you mentioned. And certainly no Mozart.

Now when you say syllabus are there separate books for them? Or, do you have to find them somewhere else.

And, that is it, I will re-introduce the etude questions to my teacher Wednesday.

[1piano4joe]

Hi immortalbeloved,

Here are links to the syllabi:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjBn9CviZnMAhVFbj4KHT3EAicQFggdMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fexaminations.rcmusic.ca%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffiles%2FS29_PianoSyllabus_2013%2520online_SECURED.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGpTeQl5hDIdUcL53_4pjrk4H0pHw&sig2=usRZq1aovNbaey5lxSsqHQ

https://examinations.rcmusic.ca/sites/default/files/files/RCM-Piano-Syllabus-2015.pdf

https://examinations.rcmusic.ca/sites/default/files/files/RCM-Piano-Popular-Selections-2015.pdf

I have found these quite helpful, Joe.

Many of the pieces can be heard on YouTube and sometimes by as many as 20 different performers. I listened to the entire Grade 5 List A (Baroque) syllabus and made a list of the ones I liked and might want to learn. Then I did the same for List B and List C.

I "trim" my lists down further to a more select size of choices. I then relisten to my personal choices and pick the ones I like best. 

Usually, I can find many of the List A and List B pieces at Petrucci Library (IMSLP).

List C can be trickier since many of those pieces are NOT public domain.

I hope that helps, Joe.

 

[abielikesu]

Hi,

There are a few lines of thought regarding etudes and technique practice.

My (guitar) teacher (a concert guitarist) believes doing scales alone are not a good use of practice time, and he prefers to develop technique by using etudes mainly. So I have learned and played a lot of etudes to develop my playing.

The same goes for my son in piano. The initial teacher had him do the usual scales and arpeggios, but once he entered the Junior conservatoire, the new teacher asked him to stop it altogether. Now he works on etudes - He's working on Czerny's The School of Velocity atm. He did some scales and arpeggios for a month or so, to prepare for a graded exams, and then back to etudes.

Regards,
Abie

[adodd81802]

Hi,

There are a few lines of thought regarding etudes and technique practice.

My (guitar) teacher (a concert guitarist) believes doing scales alone are not a good use of practice time, and he prefers to develop technique by using etudes mainly. So I have learned and played a lot of etudes to develop my playing.

The same goes for my son in piano. The initial teacher had him do the usual scales and arpeggios, but once he entered the Junior conservatoire, the new teacher asked him to stop it altogether. Now he works on etudes - He's working on Czerny's The School of Velocity atm. He did some scales and arpeggios for a month or so, to prepare for a graded exams, and then back to etudes.

Regards,
Abie

I like this idea. A lot of Czerny's velocity pieces consists of scales and runs anyway.