Legato Octaves

[Petter]

Collapse the wrist or not? Or keep it straight? Collapsing the wrist seems to add some relaxation but also might be related to increased discomfort under the shoulder blade.
 Thanks

[perfect_pitch]

Collapse the wrist or not? Or keep it straight?

Do NOT collapse the wrist.

[Petter]

Right, thanks.
  Is it suppose to be impossible to play a descending scale from, lets say A to D, all white keys, while the same thing is easy when ascending. (with the right hand, as the opposite is true for the left hand. The only way to accomplish this without pedal is to shift fingers. Which is awkward.

[stevensk]

The only way to accomplish this without pedal is to shift fingers. Which is awkward.

Shift fingers. You will get used to it

[adodd81802]

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[Petter]

Thanks all.

 What exactly is the danger with collapsing wrist? Is it actually physically deteriorating or is it just excessive movement? As in impractical for achieving speed and accuracy...

[adodd81802]

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[Petter]

I see, thanks.
 I'm trying to make sense of Cortots notes on Chopins opus 25. no 10, and it seems to me that the proper movement would be to use your underarm (from the elbow, for the actual motion), while the wrist remains fixed. (but not rigid).

[adodd81802]

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[anamnesis]

Hm I see. You know, the problem with theory books on practical exercises, is it simply doesn't show you how to do something and how it should feel. No amount of reading about how to drive a car and how it should feel could prepare you to drive a car 100% first time... Cortot's comments and theories have often been questioned (most likely just as every other theory book on playing the piano goes) with some users even suggesting injury from his instructions. I have no doubt his instructions are sound and can no doubt prove a massive success for some, however...

I wouldn't take the concepts explained in books even by the best pianists word for word, because nobody can truly explain how it should feel or be to you, except you. Take their ideas and experiment yourself (if a piano teacher is not available) and see what works. Often core ideas of a practical matter are similar, for example all Olympic sprinters run on 2 feet, all top level pianists play the piano with 2 hands and 10 fingers, but when we get down to the nitty gritty details, generally known as "technique" we see many pianists approach and act very differently.

Despite her reviews, the camera angles for Valentinas performances are often very good for the etudes to give you some ideas.

Looking at her performance you can see her wrists remain high and it looks to me here is a combination of her wrists fluttering with a downward motions of the forearm. Again it may not be exact for you, but you could at the very least then consider a straight or U shaped wrist probably wouldn't work.

When I try and practice this motion, to get as fast as I can (not even at a piano) what I find is the hand is still the lead of the movement and that drives the forearm down at quick speed, I don't think it's coming from the elbow, but I imagine that the wrist is flicking down and almost being rebounded from the keys to counter weight and then back down again and that makes the forearm follow.

I imagine it as a hammer hitting a spring. If the head of the hammer was at the bottom rather than the top, you'd have no weight on the downward force.

Lastly we must think of the fingers, if you tried to hit them down on the keys dead straight, it would be, in my opinion the same as jumping from a great height without bending your knees! OUCH!

What happens when we jump and bend our knees? Without thought we straighten again, it's not conscious, we just do it to get back to position.

I think for octaves at this speed similar happens, as you come down I imagine your thumb and pinky give way for a split second and then spring back to shape providing you the "spring off" upward force you need without actively trying to do it.

My personal view is that trying to control the motion from the wrist is a dead end.  The interaction between the hand and the forearm ultimately determines what happens at the wrist; the wrist is something you observe as a secondary effect from other areas.  

The specific interplay between the hands and forearm is one of the things that allows speed to occur because it allows you to produce tone in parts of the rhythmic cycle that a lot of people ignore.

To make it clear with an analogy, take walking as an example and sense the contact with the ground. You can take the foot and leg as an analog to the hand and forearm.

You should feel two major time points of contact with the ground, on the way down, but also as you are coming back up. Many people who struggle with speed only make this sort of contact during the down portion, completely missing the up portion.  In order to smoothly integrate both portions, your actions have to be rhythmic (like a walking gait/swimming/dribbling/etc...) and not a chain of discrete actions added together.  

This is also related to legato.

Legato action for the pianist has to come from some sort of continuous source from the body, much like the for the singers it requires the continuous breath. It is not the physical connection between keys, but our physical self that must be legato. 

The only continuous joint in the upper extremity is at the shoulder girdle, in particular the glenohumeral joint, which is a ball and socket joint, much like at the hip when walking.  It's this smoothness that allows a flowing rhythm that can be sustained that also produces a continuous line in music.   

[Petter]

Hm I see. You know, the problem with theory books on practical exercises, is it simply doesn't show you how to do something and how it should feel. No amount of reading about how to drive a car and how it should feel could prepare you to drive a car 100% first time... Cortot's comments and theories have often been questioned (most likely just as every other theory book on playing the piano goes) with some users even suggesting injury from his instructions. I have no doubt his instructions are sound and can no doubt prove a massive success for some, however...

Yea I realised this long ago, itīs especially incomprehensible if your first language isn't english, like in my case. I remember reading things like "lateral forearm movement", "supple wrist" and not really understanding what it meant. I still don't!
 I do not intend to play this piece though - just interested in building some technique. Thanks for your input, and yours too, Anamnesis. Cheers!

[pianorahrah]

Do not collapse your wrist. It might help if you have a small hand to actually lift your wrist higher and keep your fingers firm. Do not loosen everything, just your arm and wrist.
Then exchange fingers from 5 to 4 or even 3 if you have big hands.