Grade 5 pianist studying the WTC

[immortalbeloved]

Hey everyone,

So a quick question: on this forum I have read this and following response:

''I am learning an advanced piece for my level, I can't wait''

the two usual responses: ''oh great idea, it will teach you advanced concepts, help motivate you etc'' . . . or: ''No, don't, this will harm you, make you angry, frustruated, and it is not a good idea.''

Well, okay: so I really want to learn the prelude from Bach's WTC, but so many people have warned against it .  . . saying, even if you think you can handle it, you should not be studying pieces that are advanced . .  . just ''trust us'' you will thank us later.

I was wondering what people thought on this issue. I have looked over the piece, it seems doable, and not a grade 8 far away piece like some have warned me. But they seem to say that this was harm my development, almost like a kid who is 14 doing heavy weights. He might be able to lift the weights but it will stunt his growth.

[immortalbeloved]

Hey everyone,

So a quick question: on this forum I have read this and following response:

''I am learning an advanced piece for my level, I can't wait''

the two usual responses: ''oh great idea, it will teach you advanced concepts, help motivate you etc'' . . . or: ''No, don't, this will harm you, make you angry, frustruated, and it is not a good idea.''

Well, okay: so I really want to learn the prelude from Bach's WTC, but so many people have warned against it .  . . saying, even if you think you can handle it, you should not be studying pieces that are advanced . .  . just ''trust us'' you will thank us later.

I was wondering what people thought on this issue. I have looked over the piece, it seems doable, and not a grade 8 far away piece like some have warned me. But they seem to say that this was harm my development, almost like a kid who is 14 doing heavy weights. He might be able to lift the weights but it will stunt his growth.

[mjames]

ffs its a bach prelude not the liszt sonata or ocean etude, just go ahead and see if you have the chops for it by actually playing it.

[immortalbeloved]

Trust me, I felt dumb asking this question, but only because so many said what I wrote above I thought I would just ask.

On a second note, now I know what FFS is. (AFK, away from keyboard).

[mjames]

which WTC prelude?

[immortalbeloved]

This one:

  Prelude from book 1 in C Major:

(now you are going to get really mad lol--the C major one, FFS!!!)

[mjames]

Do you want to learn the fugue as well?

---

If it's just the prelude, then I don't see why you wouldn't be able to handle it. Of course since difficulty is relative, my advice is for you to go ahead and try it out. Although I have no idea why your acquaintances/classmates are sensationalizing the difficulty of the piece, it is literally an introductory piece for beginners. Go ahead and have fun, and if you're feeling adventurous: play the fugue.

[1piano4joe]

Hi immortalbeloved,

I play just the prelude. It's really no big deal. In fact, it's actually easier than most (if not all) of the RCM grade 5 pieces your studying in the RCM book.

It's an absolutely beautiful piece. You might be surprised just how fast you learn it. In my opinion, it will neither harm you nor teach you advanced concepts. It's just so satisfying to play and hear.  

Trust me, learn it, you will be glad you did, Joe.

P.S. There is NO way this prelude is an advanced piece and I would seriously doubt anyones qualifications who thought this. I'm pretty sure they were including the fugue part. It's the only way it makes sense.

Here is the link

https://www.mikeriv.com/downloads/cmusic/J.S.Bach_%20Prelude_In_C_Major.pdf

That is SO NOT advanced!

[immortalbeloved]

Thank you Pianojoe.

I will learn it, and well, maybe post it here? Who knows!

And thank you for the link as well.

[outin]

When it comes to your original question, as far as I know the piece mentioned really isn't that difficult for someone playing intermediate stuff already.

But when it comes to difficulty of pieces in general this is how I think now:

IMO grades mean nothing much when using a creative learning method. They are for those who want to use a structured and scheduled learning method. Both methods can work fine, but in the former case jumping to something more advanced can distrupt the learning process.

When  you take on a piece that is very difficult for you, you need to have flexibility in your method. First you have to have patience to spend as much time as needed with whatever you encounter. You may need to learn a new technique, read up on the style, use many different practice methods etc. You will often have to divert yourself from the actual music to solve problems.

Second you will most likely enter a state of diminishing returns at some point. At that point you must accept to let go. Let the piece rest even if not finished, take what you could manage this time and come back to it later when you have developed further. If you try to force your way through the piece even when not having what it takes yet, it will be difficult to unlearn the shortcuts you took and those things that didn't work. But if you take what you can from the piece at the moment and then leave it, you have already learned things that will benefit your learning of other pieces and when you return to this monster again it will be much more manageable. I have sometimes returned to a piece 2 years later to finish it.

I think it's a personality thing. Some people need to finish things and feel they are constantly progressing in order so they prefer to stay in their comfort zone and a little above it or just lower their expectations on quality when trying to learn hard pieces. I need to challenge myself constantly or I will lose motivation and I have learned to accept that some things will take a long time and I don't really need immediate rewards anymore. I also never could relate to structured learning or practice schedules but instead find it rewarding to constantly experiement and find new ways to approach whatever things I encounter.

I have seen many people end up quitting daily practice or playing altogether because they lost motivation when trying to jump into the deeper end too fast. It may be how majority of the people function. For me it was the other way round. The times when I actually thought I could not take it anymore and started feeling like not practicing anymore and even quitting lessons was when I spend too much time on studying pieces in the "right" order and choosing only pieces appropriate for my level. Whenever I realize I have taken in a too big a challenge, I don't even consider quitting playing, I just quit the piece for now

While I don't have much "finished" repertoire, I have gained a lot of skills that are transferable to learning pieces of many kinds. Those skills seem to stick even when the pieces they came from are gone. So works for me so far.

Oh, one more thing...Don't try my way without a proper teacher... Trying to do what I do without objective, honest and critical feedback is just not feasible.

[kawai_cs]

I completely agree with Outin above in terms of tackling pieces of greater difficulty. From my own experience I can tell that tackling one challenging piece at a time can give you a lot of extra motivation and so you will spend more time at the piano which is already beneficial.
Working solely on too difficult pieces can be however pretty counterproductive and lower your motivation. It is definitely much easier and QUICKER to pick up one skill at a time learning a piece that is of adequate difficulty than trying to play very advanced pieces where you really have to struggle because you are missing skills.
Anyways, everybody above have already suggested the piece you want to play is totally doable so have fun and maybe post it when ready!

[reiyza]

Sorry to hijack the thread temporarily, since difficulty is brought up by the OP, I was wondering how can you tell that a piece of music is too technically difficult for you at this time, is it because a certain piece has a numerous amount of technical difficulty(e.g bars that needs loads of time and effort to make it sound acceptable), or the amount of notes?

[outin]

Sorry to hijack the thread temporarily, since difficulty is brought up by the OP, I was wondering how can you tell that a piece of music is too technically difficult for you at this time, is it because a certain piece has a numerous amount of technical difficulty(e.g bars that needs loads of time and effort to make it sound acceptable), or the amount of notes?

That depends entirely on your personal strengths and weaknesses.

A teacher is very helpful in assessing this. But you should yourself be able to tell too: If something just doesn't seem to work any better even when you put some thinking and effort and several practice sessions into it, maybe it's just technically too difficult at this time.

The amount of notes or pages can be a difficulty in itself depending on one's memory and reading abilities.

[immortalbeloved]

Sorry to hijack the thread temporarily, since difficulty is brought up by the OP, I was wondering how can you tell that a piece of music is too technically difficult for you at this time, is it because a certain piece has a numerous amount of technical difficulty(e.g bars that needs loads of time and effort to make it sound acceptable), or the amount of notes?

I actually, but only casually, asked my teacher what level the WTC was considered and she said grade 8 (or 9). So, I went in with that mindset and thought ''well even though this looks playable, I am sure it is level grade 8 for a reason.''

[outin]

I actually, but only casually, asked my teacher what level the WTC was considered and she said grade 8 (or 9). So, I went in with that mindset and thought ''well even though this looks playable, I am sure it is level grade 8 for a reason.''

It's rare that the whole set of pieces (or even the whole piece) is of similar difficulty. So often the grade is determined by the most difficult piece/movement. If you pick a random piece from WTC it probably will be difficult, but with some research you can find the ones that are most playable for you.

[immortalbeloved]

Outin, I wanted to thank you for your first response. That was exactly what I heard but had some difficulty explaining it; you did a wonderful job and really helped me out. Thank you very much.