Scales and Arpeggios

[drkz4ck]

Hello there!
I've played the piano for a few years, but I've always lacked a teacher to guide me.
My former teacher never taught me technical stuff such as scales and arpeggios and now, almost 7 years since I've started I know pretty much nothing on that.

Because of that, many passages in many pieces become a real pain , so I've decided to practise those from now on.

The thing is, I don't really know how....
I've got Hanon's book with all scales and arpeeggios, but what should I do first?

* Do I have to practise as many scales and arpeggios as I can at a time? Or should I master one before moving on to the next?
* Which scales/arp. should I start with? Should I just follow the books order?
* Should I play legato? Maybe stacatto?
* SHould I play in duplets? triplets? 16ths? ....
* Should I put crescendo? or put in any dynamics?
* How many octaves up and down should I do it?

Well, these are some questions that popped up in my mind while practising, so I thought I should get a little help
Thanks everyone =)

[adodd81802]

.

[feddera]

You'll probably get lots of different answers, as everyone has a different approach to this. I can only speak for how I practice, but I'll try to give reasons for it as well.

I advice you to pick ONE key, and stick to that one key for some time. Of course, it's good to know all the keys, but for focused technical work, it should be more about perfecting evenness and sound, than about memorizing sharps, flats and fingerings. Besides, with limited time to practice, the more keys you do the less time you end up spending on each of them.

I recommend E major as the first key to focus on. It's both comfortable and symmetric (RH ascending is the same as LH descending).

As for legato/staccato, duplets, triplets etc, you should practice a bit of everything. I've tried to come up with "systems" in the past, where I had this list of different things to do each day, but now I would advice against it. It gets very tedious, and you'll end up just going through the motions just to get the session over with... There's no need. One day I'll play everything staccato, the next day legato, some days with a metronome, some days without. As long as you work on something, it does not really matter what it is.

For patterns hands together I recommend 4 octaves up and down, and the "grand scale pattern", which is two octaves up in similar motion, two octaves in contratry motion, two more octaves up and down in similar motion, two octaves in contrary motion, and finally two octaves in similar motion down again. Do this with hands a 3rd, a 6th, an octave and a 10th apart. Also practice hands separate, but again, I would not recommend making a list of patterns to go through each day. Rather, find out where your weak spots are, isolate them and fix them.

For many, the weak spots will be where the thumb crosses under the hand. For me, the hardest part of a scale is right at the top, when changing from ascending to descending. I'm currently working more on that than anything else.

Anyway, hope this helps and good luck!

[timothy42b]

One scale at a time, for at least a week, and the majority of scale practice HS.  Listen, listen, listen;  at this stage the purpose of a scale is primarily to learn to listen to evenness of rhythm and tone, and secondarily to produce evenness of rhythm and tone. 

[reiyza]

Hanon's scales are a good place to start, though you'll want other scale books as well in order to look at different fingerings(and find the fingerings you find much comfortable for you to use).

Though hanon will serve it's purpose better if you have a teacher who knows how to use it properly.

+1 to sir feddera on staccato practice, it tends to help smoothen the scale a little.

[louispodesta]

Hello there!
I've played the piano for a few years, but I've always lacked a teacher to guide me.
My former teacher never taught me technical stuff such as scales and arpeggios and now, almost 7 years since I've started I know pretty much nothing on that.

Because of that, many passages in many pieces become a real pain , so I've decided to practise those from now on.

The thing is, I don't really know how....
I've got Hanon's book with all scales and arpeeggios, but what should I do first?

* Do I have to practise as many scales and arpeggios as I can at a time? Or should I master one before moving on to the next?
* Which scales/arp. should I start with? Should I just follow the books order?
* Should I play legato? Maybe stacatto?
* SHould I play in duplets? triplets? 16ths? ....
* Should I put crescendo? or put in any dynamics?
* How many octaves up and down should I do it?

Well, these are some questions that popped up in my mind while practising, so I thought I should get a little help
Thanks everyone =)

In that the OP's question is not valid, why should I respond?  Hey, if you think you can learn how to play the piano or any other ionstrument on the Internet (without private instruction):  Good luck with that.

Accordingly, do you really think that for over 250 years people have wasted all of their time learning how to play this great instrument ALL BY THEMSELVES!!

Make no mistake about it, the future of music matriculation is electronic.  Your approach is not without merit.  However, at this point it is most premature.

[drkz4ck]

Hey, if you think you can learn how to play the piano or any other ionstrument on the Internet (without private instruction):  Good luck with that.

I've never said that.
Unfortunately I can't have lessons at the moment. And I don't intend to stop studying altogether just because of that.

I've come online for help because I believe there are many people with a lot more of experience here than I, and maybe they could offer some advice. I see it more like asking a classmate for help on a subject.
Even if there are many different answers, they've actually been really useful for me  .

Besides, having private instruction doesn't automatically means it's a good thing. A bad teacher won't do good for you, as I have experienced. I've developped many bad habits and an injurie right in front of them and was never told something was off.

Thanks everyone =)
(Still open to advice  )

[kawai_cs]

Things my teacher wants me to do when playing scales:
->play them very, very SMOOTHLY, legato. This is what she stresses all the time,
->do not raise fingers, they must be very close to the keyboard,
->play musically, like it is a piece of music
->she also encourages me to play chromatic scales

For practice I do play HS, as timothy mentioned above, to eliminate uneven spots.
 

[mjames]

In that the OP's question is not valid, why should I respond?  Hey, if you think you can learn how to play the piano or any other ionstrument on the Internet (without private instruction):  Good luck with that.

Accordingly, do you really think that for over 250 years people have wasted all of their time learning how to play this great instrument ALL BY THEMSELVES!!

[reiyza]

Things my teacher wants me to do when playing scales:
->play them very, very SMOOTHLY, legato. This is what she stresses all the time,
->do not raise fingers, they must be very close to the keyboard,
->play musically, like it is a piece of music
->she also encourages me to play chromatic scales

For practice I do play HS, as timothy mentioned above, to eliminate uneven spots.
 

Sounds very effective since I've noticed that playing scales HT, the smoother hand tends to cover the uneven sound of the other hand. My teacher tends to follow the "HANON" rule, play HT, raise the finger high then plonk! Since my teacher has gone hiatus for 1 month, I have been exploring the way with scales, and it is indeed effective to learn a scale HS and playing musically.

You've got a good teacher. Thumbs up. +1 to kawai_cs

+1 to mjames for the humor.

[xdjuicebox]

Just make sure you develop control. Be able to get any sound you want. So if you want to be able to play legato, practice legato, portato, jeu perle, staccato, or even try to imitate sounds you hear on other instruments. You have to know what you're trying to do though, and a teacher helps tremendously in that regard

[tenk]

Hey, at least he didn't say something like, "I have some golden bit of information but I can only share it with you via pm." aka I have something to sell. That's what I usually expect to see in Mr. Podesta's posts.

[briansaddleback]

PM me for some exclusive info on scales and arpeggios that only the few privileged can heed. All personal opinions and life experiences are invalid in this thread. When I go to my grave in a few short years, I want no one there to notice I was gone.

[bernadette60614]

May I also suggest:

I think for most people the left hand is not as dexterous as the right hand.  When I do scales and and arpeggios, I always do twice as much left hand work as right hand.

Also, may I also suggest:  While learning scales and arpeggios is wonderful on many levels, it is also a wonderful time to work on touch and tone.  One of my persistent challenges is playing "deeply" into the keys and doing slow practice.  I find doing scales/arpeggios at the outset of any practice session and doing them deeply and slowly puts me in the right frame of mind to conduct my practice session similarly.

Good luck, have fun!

[kawai_cs]

All personal opinions and life experiences are invalid in this thread.

LOL, what do you mean?

Reading the above post by bernadette I feel like practicing scales every day again

[briansaddleback]

LOL, what do you mean?

Reading the above post by bernadette I feel like practicing scales every day again

I was making fun of someone on here



yeah, feeling and doing are completely different things. Kudos you feel like doing them.

[louispodesta]

May I also suggest:

I think for most people the left hand is not as dexterous as the right hand.  When I do scales and and arpeggios, I always do twice as much left hand work as right hand.

Also, may I also suggest:  While learning scales and arpeggios is wonderful on many levels, it is also a wonderful time to work on touch and tone.  One of my persistent challenges is playing "deeply" into the keys and doing slow practice.  I find doing scales/arpeggios at the outset of any practice session and doing them deeply and slowly puts me in the right frame of mind to conduct my practice session similarly.

Good luck, have fun!

Politely, as a pianist philosopher, I ask those who have posted here to answer the following:

1)  500 years from now, are people still going to recommend scales, arpeggios, and exercises as the proper methodology associated with high level piano technique?  And, an answer to this question would be highly appreciated.

2)  My coach, Dr. Thomas Mark, wrote "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body."  He is a former Taubman practice coach and also a former student of Edna Golandsky and also Robert Durso.  Practically every University Piano Department Chair in the U.S. has a copy of this valuable technique "handbook" (his words) in their personal library.

He has never once mentioned to me personally or stated in print anything about the traditional aforesaid methodology associated with the development of proper technique.  And more importantly, this logic is coupled with the late Dorothy Taubman's tapes, and the very much alive Edna Golandsky's DVD"s.

3)  Not to be redundant, not one of these widely acclaimed technique coaches has never (AND I MEAN NEVER!) even so much as even broached the subject of scales, arpeggios, exercises, and so forth.  Go ahead and buy the Taubman tapes, and the Golandsky DVD's, if you want to disprove this centuries-old falsehood.  Better yet, obtain them from your local music school library for free!

For the record, I used to spend the first hour (20 years) of every practice session playing the old-school scales, et al.  It did me no good because, as I eventuallyy found out, THERE ARE NO MUSCLES IN YOUR FINGERS.  That is:  there is nothing to develop!

Do you not think that the three above mentioned world renowned technique coaches would have excluded this traditional methodology, if it was not for a reason!

4) Accordingly,  I have observed the following:

    a)  Daily physical total body exercise directly relates to technique performance at the
         piano.  Coupled with this is an old recommendation that gardening (pianist, or violinist)
         is a natural way to develop technique.

    b)  Working out at any decent body-building gym three times a week (or if you have the
          knowledge and expertise to do it at home) is an excellent way to develop technique
          strength in all of the right places.

    c)  The late Earl Wild and now Christopher Guzman were/are pianists whose initial
         instrument was the Cello.  They had/have no problems with piano technique because
         the ligaments and tendons in fingers 3, 4 and 5 third of their left hand were greatly
         strengthened. 

    d)  Further, when is came to sight-reading, music theory and their ability to quickly learn
         and memorize any new piece, they always finished at the top of their class.

Finally, may I suggest the following;

1)  In terms of your teacher 

[louispodesta]

I just got cut-off by the person who monitors this post, so I will keep this short.

Learning any scale and any arpeggio is absolutely essential to the proper matriculation at the piano.

But!

To take it to the next level and logically associate these notes to strengthening the human hand is 100$% BS.  For the record, neither Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky or Thomas Mark, can or chooses to provide any evidence to the contrary.

[brogers70]

Scales and arpeggios are great; at least I find them very helpful. Once you have learned them well enough that the notes and fingerings are automatic, you can use them to work out all sorts of problems in technique. You can put the playing of the scale on auto-pilot, except that you focus on one particular issue at a time. So, for example, play the scales and pay attention to how your third finger releases each note, focus on striking each note with the minimum tension necessary in the muscles controlling the fingers, focus only on the sensations in your wrist and eliminate tension there; focus only on the even sweep of your arms up and down the keyboard, focus on the motion of your arms at the turning points at the top and bottom of the scales. Play them with the arm weight down or the arm weight up. Play them with the fingers as close to the keys as possible to find the fastest most efficient movements. Play them with the fingers lifting as high as possible after each note (not to strengthen the fingers or slam them down, but to focus your mind on the release of each note). Play them with rapid finger staccato. Play them in polyrhythms to get 3 against 2, 3 against 4, and 3 against 5 engrained into your brain. Don't just play them legato and staccato; play them with every conceivable degree of overlap between the striking of a new note and the release of the previous note. If your inactive fingers tend to curl up or stick out tensely when you play, do the scales ultra slowly until you can train the inactive fingers to be completely relaxed and passive.

Of course you could do lots of this with passages from your pieces, but the great thing about scales and arpeggios is that once the notes and fingerings are automatic you can focus on one tiny technical issue at a time.

[bernadette60614]

In my limited experience (hence forth to be this: IMLE...viola, I have leapt into the digital age!):

Another aspect of scale and arpeggio practice I find valuable is "deep listening".  Really and completely listening fully to every single note individually. Developing that capacity to deeply listen has engaged me in listening more deeply as I practice.

I am not a composer, but I also enjoy doing some improve on the scales.

Good luck, have fun!

[xdjuicebox]

Scales and arpeggios help me a lot in sightreading. Not so much because of exact positions (because I rarely keep scale fingerings when reading), but because there's a "shape" each scale has, and if you're reading music and you don't see an accidental, well, staying inside of that "shape" is a much better bet than hitting a note outside of it, if you know what I mean.

[briansaddleback]

scales and arpeggios are bad ass.

[louispodesta]

"To take it to the next level and logically associate these notes to strengthening the human hand is 100% BS.  For the record, neither Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky or Thomas Mark, can or chooses to provide any evidence to the contrary.

For the record, the Chair of the Keyboard Department at Juiliiard is a former student of Dorothy Taubman.  Leon Fleisher is a former student of Dorothy Taubman.

With all due respect, what do the rest of you know that the top music schools in the U.S. don't know?

The point is: that after years of kicking and screaming, the top teachers in America have "moved on" to the next level of piano technique pedagogy.

And, it is high time that the founder/concert pianist of this website did the same.  Shame on you, Pianostreet!

In my opinion, you owe your members at least the opportunity of a formal discussion of this current level of Conservatory piano technique pedagogy.

[vaniii]

Scales are vital.

Even if not rehearsed for dexterity,  one cannot even begin to grasp the concept of harmony, melody and counterpoint without a deep understanding of the above.

If you believe playing scales is a waste then you do not understand music. Louis, it sounds like sour grapes; perhaps caused by a life time of mistakes.  If you spent 1 hour playing scales for 20 years and cannot see their usefulness, then unfortunately you never will. Music is nothing more than scales, broken into arpeggios and grouped in chords. I spent three years working on my vocabulary  (scales; over 200 including modes and broken scales and chords) and can endorse them completely for dexterity and understanding of concept.

First year harmony dictates it.

[timothy42b]

Scales are vital.

Even if not rehearsed for dexterity,  one cannot even begin to grasp the concept of harmony, melody and counterpoint without a deep understanding of the above.

True.  But ten minutes a day for a week should be sufficient to understand scales.  After that they are reinforced with every piece of music you listen to or play.

Alternatively, watch Sound of Music.  Do, a deer will tell you all you need to know.

[louispodesta]

Hello there!
I've played the piano for a few years, but I've always lacked a teacher to guide me.
My former teacher never taught me technical stuff such as scales and arpeggios and now, almost 7 years since I've started I know pretty much nothing on that.

Because of that, many passages in many pieces become a real pain , so I've decided to practise those from now on.

The thing is, I don't really know how....
I've got Hanon's book with all scales and arpeeggios, but what should I do first?

* Do I have to practise as many scales and arpeggios as I can at a time? Or should I master one before moving on to the next?
* Which scales/arp. should I start with? Should I just follow the books order?
* Should I play legato? Maybe stacatto?
* SHould I play in duplets? triplets? 16ths? ....
* Should I put crescendo? or put in any dynamics?
* How many octaves up and down should I do it?

Well, these are some questions that popped up in my mind while practising, so I thought I should get a little help
Thanks everyone =)

I am sorry:  is not he OP asking for an analytical comment on scales and arpeggios, as they relate to the development of a sound technique?

Just what are you guys talking about?  Music theory and piano finger technique (which Taubman, Golandksy and Mark do not ever espouse, in terms of scales and arpeggios) are not the same thing!