rubato

[BoliverAllmon]

I know how to use rubato. my question is how much is rubato allowed in say Beethoven and Haydn? I am working on some of their sonatas and I have a feeling that when I go back to school in a week or so and show my teacher that she will not be to thrilled and the added nuances.

boliver

[anda]

could you be more specific? which sonatas, where do you want to use rubato?

[BoliverAllmon]

sure Beethoven's sonata 2/1 first mvt.

here are some places.

Measure 20: the RH begins on the f flat. I like to give a little rubato here and accelerate into the SF f flat in measure 22: I really like this effect wherever this pattern is ued in this movement.

Measure: 28 I like to rubato on the 3 eighth notes in the RH and in the same patterns in the following measures. that is the main points on the beethoven. I do it acouple of other places, but that is mainly feel. I never think about it, it just happens.

Haydn sonata 34 in D maj. first mvt.

I don't have measure numbers in my edition and I am too lazy to figure that one out right now. Just start with the beethoven.

boliver

[faulty_damper]

I don't recomend the noticeable use of rubato in the descending passage at messure 20 which repeats itself.

I have not learned this sonata yet but my edition is the Schirmer edition and it starts after a decrescendo from the 8vs into p and I would interpret that as the inversion of the opening motif which should have been played to strict time.  Also note that the broken octaves that the melody caries itself does not lend too well to much rubato.  If I were to mark the inverted line at m20, I would say it should be played delicatissimo.  The sF should come as a surprise so it should not be advertised.

At m28, I don't think it lends itself to rubato either.

Let me work this out on the piano with your thoughts of rubato and I will get back to you if I have any changes to my comments.

fdsf

[BoliverAllmon]

I have the urtext edition and there isn't a decrescendo there. I do have the Piano marking though at the beginning of the downward passage. I don't see how the broken octaves don't lend themselves to rubato. Maybe I am missing something there. I do somewhat agree with the surprise aspect.

boliver

[richard w]

With the Beethoven, try recording yourself and seeing if you like listening to the effect as much as you enjoy playing it. It's worth noting that it's quite easy to get into the habit of doing something because you like doing it. This applies especially with rubato. At first it starts off with a bit of flexibility, and with each repetition it becomes more and more exaggerated. Before you know it you have completely lost touch with what you should be aiming to create. Not that I'm suggesting that's what you're doing here. But listen, and then compare your rendition to that of as many other practitioners as possible. Listen to the mood other players create and see if you feel your rubato is still applicable.

You've probably sensed that I would discourage your suggested rubatos (rubati?). There is certainly scope in a few places in this movement for a bit of flexibility, if you wish, but you have to read into the 'writing' a bit more deeply to find those places. I would not encourage your particular rubato places because I feel the LH quaver rhythm should not be disturbed. Beethoven seems to be building up something which is rather greater than your rubato would suggest - in fact the climax is b 33, not b 22.

Now consider bbs 41-48. The writing here is free from the 'relentless' quaver movement of the previous passage. Furthermore, Beethoven asks us to play 'con espressione'. Whatever you do, make it subtle, but if you want to add some flexibility, here would be the place to do it. For instance, you could us it to make the fortissimo chord more special by 'placing' it and holding it just slightly.

Those are my thoughts anyway. The Haydn I don't know.



Richard.

[faulty_damper]

I have the urtext edition and there isn't a decrescendo there. I do have the Piano marking though at the beginning of the downward passage. I don't see how the broken octaves don't lend themselves to rubato. Maybe I am missing something there. I do somewhat agree with the surprise aspect.

boliver

I have gone over the several passages and I do not see if it is wise to to accelerando into the sforzando.  Considering the character of the piece, there is no precedent to for the acceleration but there is much that suggests that the tempo should remain steady because it reflects how the movement starts.  Look at how the left hand triad is accented the fourth repetition at the beginning of bar4 and again at bar5 (accented both with a contrasting triad and an increase in dynamics.)  You would not crescendo these triads or accelerate the tempo.  This character should be reflected in the downward passage at bar20.  Moreover, the sF should be a giveaway as to how to interpret these passages.  If it were f, then there could be room for an accelerando.

They decrescendo is marked in the Schirmer edition, but with the p the decrescendo is implied.

The broken octaves are strict in that they are there for the "filler notes" to accompany the melody.

At bar 27-9, with the triplet-like figures, because they do rise there should be an increase in dynamics and of course the subsequent increase in tempo.  The climax reaches its height when the figure is concluded at bar29 and the tempo should be brought back down.  This is actually edited into the Schirmer edition but it seems to be redundant as with almost all of Schirmer editions of Beethoven's sonatas.

[BoliverAllmon]

With the Beethoven, try recording yourself and seeing if you like listening to the effect as much as you enjoy playing it. It's worth noting that it's quite easy to get into the habit of doing something because you like doing it. This applies especially with rubato. At first it starts off with a bit of flexibility, and with each repetition it becomes more and more exaggerated. Before you know it you have completely lost touch with what you should be aiming to create. Not that I'm suggesting that's what you're doing here. But listen, and then compare your rendition to that of as many other practitioners as possible. Listen to the mood other players create and see if you feel your rubato is still applicable.

You've probably sensed that I would discourage your suggested rubatos (rubati?). There is certainly scope in a few places in this movement for a bit of flexibility, if you wish, but you have to read into the 'writing' a bit more deeply to find those places. I would not encourage your particular rubato places because I feel the LH quaver rhythm should not be disturbed. Beethoven seems to be building up something which is rather greater than your rubato would suggest - in fact the climax is b 33, not b 22.

Now consider bbs 41-48. The writing here is free from the 'relentless' quaver movement of the previous passage. Furthermore, Beethoven asks us to play 'con espressione'. Whatever you do, make it subtle, but if you want to add some flexibility, here would be the place to do it. For instance, you could us it to make the fortissimo chord more special by 'placing' it and holding it just slightly.

Those are my thoughts anyway. The Haydn I don't know.



Richard.

well put, I think I will record myself. as for the rubato into the LH passage. Brendel has a little flexibility here. I think he is on the right path, but stops short of what can be accomplished.

I do say that this is one of the better topics i have been apart of. Really educational.

[anda]

sure Beethoven's sonata 2/1 first mvt.

here are some places.

Measure 20: the RH begins on the f flat. I like to give a little rubato here and accelerate into the SF f flat in measure 22: I really like this effect wherever this pattern is ued in this movement.

no, not under any circumstances!

Measure: 28 I like to rubato on the 3 eighth notes in the RH and in the same patterns in the following measures. that is the main points on the beethoven. I do it acouple of other places, but that is mainly feel. I never think about it, it just happens.

what you probably feel is the need to emphasize the 2nd note (the as). for this, mr. beethoven wrote a pair of signs (which i don't know how they're called in english - we call them "forks") cresc-decresc. respect them, but no rubato, definitely!

beethoven is very very precise in his notations. he totally disliked pianists (especilly those who tried to impress him by playing him his own works), so he wrote on the score exactly how he wants each note to be played. so, basic advice: stick to his indications and don't try to embellish his works, he knew what he was doing! (a very old pianist who had played beethoven everything gave me this advice years ago)

best luck

[BoliverAllmon]

thanks for the info.