Advice on Chopin étude Op. 25 No. 6

[malabdal]

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on Chopin's Op. 25 No. 6. From the first week of practicing, I realized that this is the kind of works that will need a life time in order to be perfectly controlled. Nonetheless, I went and learned it. I am sure I will be taking it again every month or so, just to keep it in my blood so to speak. At this moment I, more or less, have the notes comfortably under my hands.

However, my only problem is that I have a block when it comes to the first two measures (may be a psychological block). I have a clear idea in my mind about what quality of sound I want to achieve in those two measures (the piercing depth and the whispering quality of the "romantic version" of Ravel's Ondine). From the 3rd measure on, the thirds are alright for now. What suggestion to you have for those two measures:

1) Should the hand be very close to the key before starting or should it approach lightly from a slight distance? (of course it should be very close to the key during playing, in order to achieve a proper legato but my question is about preparing the sound before one starts playing).

2) What recommendations do people have about the use of pedal in these two measures?

3) What do you think is the best way to achieve the sotto voce quality which Chopin indicates?

4) Is there a fingering that helps me achieve the sound better? (of course this depends on the pianist's hands, but maybe there is an objective fingering I am not aware off).

I practice two fingerings currently:

3  5      or,   4  5  3  5  3  5       (Naturally the second fingering introduces a slight rubato)
1  2             1  2  1  2  1  2

Let me know what you think. Thanks in advance.

[jimroof]

Go with 1/3 2/5 for the opening trill, but switch to 1/4 2/5 2/3 when it starts the 'turn' just before the rising chromatic scale.

And, do a LOT of table top practice.  Contrary to what some may think, it takes strength to play quietly and under control.  Get your fingers strong by playing the difficult passages forte or fortissimo, then back off and be more in control when you play sotto voce.

As a general rule, figure out the fingering then stick to it.  Only make a change if you really hit a brick wall with velocity. 

Also, as for pedal... I would flutter pedal the opening trills and use the same approach for the vast majority of the piece.

[anamnesis]

Hello everyone,

I am currently working on Chopin's Op. 25 No. 6. From the first week of practicing, I realized that this is the kind of works that will need a life time in order to be perfectly controlled. Nonetheless, I went and learned it. I am sure I will be taking it again every month or so, just to keep it in my blood so to speak. At this moment I, more or less, have the notes comfortably under my hands.

However, my only problem is that I have a block when it comes to the first two measures (may be a psychological block). I have a clear idea in my mind about what quality of sound I want to achieve in those two measures (the piercing depth and the whispering quality of the "romantic version" of Ravel's Ondine). From the 3rd measure on, the thirds are alright for now. What suggestion to you have for those two measures:

1) Should the hand be very close to the key before starting or should it approach lightly from a slight distance? (of course it should be very close to the key during playing, in order to achieve a proper legato but my question is about preparing the sound before one starts playing).

2) What recommendations do people have about the use of pedal in these two measures?

3) What do you think is the best way to achieve the sotto voce quality which Chopin indicates?

4) Is there a fingering that helps me achieve the sound better? (of course this depends on the pianist's hands, but maybe there is an objective fingering I am not aware off).

I practice two fingerings currently:

3  5      or,   4  5  3  5  3  5       (Naturally the second fingering introduces a slight rubato)
1  2             1  2  1  2  1  2

Let me know what you think. Thanks in advance.

I'm going to give some unusual advice.

My suggestion is to actually create a melody from the notes available to you.  

Repetitive sounds likes trills tend to turn the ear off to the voice leading that connects the aural-motor connection that enables quick, fine responsive adjustments needed for motor learning.  We can also process and perceive melodically easier than harmonically.  

Work on hearing that melody despite both notes being played and then you will find it much easier to fine tune the double trill.  

So from each double third pick one note for your melody.  

For what's it's worth, here's what I do:

First two sixteenths as an "upbeat pick up":
D# C#

Then I just keep repeating a basic progression of an ascending fourth that steps down until it reaches the B and then repeats with a fourth leap.  (Similar to the octaves in the Heroic Polonaise)

(B E D# C#) (B E D# C#) etc....

What ever physical adjustments you explore, connecting it to tonal effects like this, makes it much easier to absorb then just trying to go for a vague hazy sound that your brain has a harder time trying to figure out how to adjust to.  It then makes it easier to do gradual dynamic effects.  

[ahoffmann]

1) Should the hand be very close to the key before starting or should it approach lightly from a slight distance?

2) What recommendations do people have about the use of pedal in these two measures?

3) What do you think is the best way to achieve the sotto voce quality which Chopin indicates?

4) Is there a fingering that helps me achieve the sound better?

1) I sort of start out of the keys - as if I was playing all along and there's nothing particularly new happening movement-wise. That's because I want the sound to be like that.

2) I generally leave pedal down there. Depends on the room and piano though.

3) Be careful not to over-emphasize the left hand. People often think they have to bring out some melodic line in the left hand as if the right hand is just accompaniment. That's not the way I perceive the piece at all. Try practicing just the left hand as ppppp as you can and once you've gotten used to that, you might be surprised at how sotto voce you can play the whole piece.

4) I use

4 5
1 2

I find it by far the easiest because the two trills are more separate.

[briansaddleback]

3) Be careful not to over-emphasize the left hand. People often think they have to bring out some melodic line in the left hand as if the right hand is just accompaniment. That's not the way I perceive the piece at all. Try practicing just the left hand as ppppp as you can and once you've gotten used to that, you might be surprised at how sotto voce you can play the whole piece.

This is what I feel as well. The left hand has to be hinting at the melody somewhat and not prominent. That way, it leaves more of an 'ominous' presence to the piece that I always get .

[danielo]

Does anyone actually use
1 4
3 2

for the opening trill?

[pencilart3]

I always just used 1-3 2-4. Do a light cresc and make the pedal follow the cresc marking. Slowly press it down and then slowly release it as you get louder and then softer. But most importantly make sure you retain the beat in these first measures so you don't lose the audience right off the bat.

[mmm151]

The technique for thirds actually involves an undulating arm movement, while the fingers at the same time are alert with their tips resting on the key surface. Hence, from my own experience of playing Op 25/6, You will need to discover the arm gesture involved for technical control & refinement of nuance at speed, then practise this movement daily at a slow speed for a month or two, or until it it feels natural.

The following worked for me:

1. Play each third firmly, using a pronating movement (rotate towards the thumb) then play straight down - fingertips pointing straight down into the keys. Make sure that the forearm is in the centre of the two third notes & that the 2 notes of each third play exactly together. This will aid security & muscle memory, but not with the ultimate speed until the arm is more involved.

2. Most consecutive thirds or consecutive thirds & sixths, and the like, involve a technique similar to that of tremolo ie elbow in & out. This skill also requires immense freedom at the wrist in particular. Play the first third BD sharp (the third containing the thumb) with a forward (elbow out) arm movement followed by the next third C sharp E( the third not containing the thumb) with a back towards the torso (elbow in) arm movement. You can try all the pairs of thirds in the piece this way. In addition, for the opening trill & other trilling third passages, try pulling up slightly on the "no thumb" third at the same time as back towards the torso. As you increase the speed, it feels as if the wrist & forearm act like an opening & closing hinge. At great speed this undulating movement becomes very small & you just focus on a slight downward pulse on the 1st third in each group of four & later in each group of 8 for excessive speed.
3. For the chromatic third scale passages, try 1. & 2. above, but not the pulling up action. Instead take each pair of thirds & go from the 1st third to the next in each pair in an anti- clockwise shape. Then, at a moderate speed, pulse in groups of 4, then pulse in groups of 8 as the speed comes up to tempo. Ultimately, in performance, you just mentally note these pulses without doing too much on them. They become mental signposts for organising focus. The trills also eventually have have a slightly anti- clockwise small shape too.

For the opening fingering, it depends on your hand. I would stick to 14/25 or 13/25 or something similar, not changing the fingering mid-trill as I think you suggested.

Stick with the above routine for a while & eventually it will become accessible & natural...It is an unusual technique. Chopin Etude Op 10 No 7 has the same technique.

[jimroof]

The technique for thirds actually involves an undulating arm movement, while the fingers at the same time are alert with their tips resting on the key surface. Hence, from my own experience of playing Op 25/6, You will need to discover the arm gesture involved for technical control & refinement of nuance at speed, then practise this movement daily at a slow speed for a month or two, or until it it feels natural.

Correlation does not equal causation...

I have studied this etude for the last 5 months and have viewed numerous world-class performances on YouTube.  The arm seems to follow the fingers and not the other way around.  For me, during the trills, my hand and wrist are nearly stationary as I get better and better at it.  That does NOT mean the arm is rigid or tense.  It just means there is as LITTLE motion as possible being deployed to get the job done.  I think the hand comes into play with the 'turns' that come out of the trills, but again, I do not think this is because the hand motion is driving the technique, but rather the hand is in a state of relaxation while the fingers do their work.  It is not, for me, any kind of arm gesture as much as it is my arm being relaxed and allowing my fingers to move efficiently. 

Just looking at the trills, in general, here is what I see from different performers:

Lisitsa - arm barely does anything.  Very quiet hand and forearm.  Just the natural little movement during the 'turns' that allow the fingers to get to where they need to go to.

Kissin - Same thing.  Hand just seems to hover over the trilling fingers.  Economy of motion clearly evident. 

Trifinov - Ditto.  Hand is just along for the ride during the trills.


I agree 100% with the fingers resting on the keys.  This comes under the general idea of economy of motion. 

In my opinion, the hand and arm will fall naturally to what they need to do to allow the fingers to do their work.  Not the other way around.

Moral of the story... keep hand, wrist and forearms relaxed and when the fingers play there will be natural motions in the arm and wrist that are DRIVEN by the fingers. 

The ONLY exceptions to this, to MY experience, are the G7 and F7 broken chords and the broken diminished 7's that absolutely ARE partially driven by a tremolo-like rocking of the hand.

[mmm151]

What I have read of piano technique & learned in remediating my students & my own technical issues, is that no one component of the playing mechanism - fingers, hand & arm actually drives the piano playing process & neither did I state this. It is really a collaboration between all playing parts & more to do with achieving the correct balance between them, ie between the fingers, hand & arm.

I agree that when you observe Kissin, Lisitsa & Trifonov etc, who are very adept at playing this Etude, it appears as if their right arm is moving very little, if at all. This is because all the movements are minimised for economy of movement in order to achieve extreme speed & ultra refinement of nuance. Hence, as a result of this minimisation, (& similarly in all piano performance really), the observer can't see what is actually going on underneath the playing anymore & therefore it looks as if the fingers are playing the major role. This is why many pianists have technical problems & have found piano technique so mystifying, because of a consequent over-emphasis on finger activity during practice as the sole source of achieving technical mastery. And, as stated in my previous post, when one achieves maximum speed, it just feels like small movements anyway, as well as little impulses at regular intervals, which is typical of all fast playing no matter what the underlying technique involved is.

The problem with many pianists who attempt to play Op 25/6 without the arm collaboration, is that the fingers feel tangled & uncontrolled & such players often struggle to play this Etude at all as a result. When the arm movement I described is added, a sense of just how much arm, hand & finger activity is required begins to occur & more success is assured. In the end, it will (I agree) seem that the fingers are mainly doing the job, but there will be an additional freedom that occurs, which is also necessary to play this piece comfortably.

Most pianists can play much of the technique in the repertoire naturally, without the need to analyse what is going on underneath physically during the process of learning. Some can undoubtedly learn Op 25/6 this way, too. However, for those who are struggling to make inroads into mastering it, I am offering a method of practising that I know works, whereas just trying to do it with minimal arm movement & fingers alone often promotes tension & failure to succeed. For those of you in this latter category, please try what I have suggested & persevere for a while.

By the way, the middle section involving 7th chords features a wider interval between the two thirds in each pair & it is well known that, the wider the interval in a tremolo situation, the more exaggerated the arm movement. This is why the arm involvement is more obvious at speed than in other parts of the work. Trills & tremolos, as you know, are lumped together as having the same technique...It just feels & looks different when the interval between the notes becomes larger.

[jimroof]

Your first post seemed to imply that 'arm motion' was something of a 'secret' method by which one could master this etude.  Perhaps I read it wrongly.

My contention that arm motion, in the case of the original question, was more likely to be the result of a reaction than an action in and of itself. 

For many who practice this work, a stationary arm MIGHT at first induce fatigue and tension.  So, a stationary arm is not the starting point for the trills.  However, it IS where the ending point should be, for the most part.  The fingers ARE capable of moving quickly enough and with enough coordination to play every note of the trills and the ascending minor thirds scales without any significant aid from the arm and wrist other than to just cooperate and stay loose. 

Perhaps what you are advocating is not so much a technique to achieve the notes by some kind of arm motion as much as it is advocating SOME arm motion that ensures the body above the finger level not lock up and become too tense - sort of like the Alexander method for the hand...

[mmm151]

No. What I am implying is that arm, hand and finger collaboration is an essential part of the underlying technique of the trill and tremolo passages, in particular, here even though,in the end at performance speed, it may not be evident to an observer or even to the performer, for that matter. So, in effect, I agree with you that, at speed, it seems as if the fingers are doing most of the work. This principle holds true for any advanced piano work. What I am talking about here is a practice strategy that will ensure quicker success than just fingers alone, especially knowing how frustratingly unwieldy this piece can be. Even Josh Wright (YouTube) said as much. Trifonov, too, said that these Etudes are "excruciatingly difficult".

 The approach I described for trills and tremolos, works for the scale passages too, even without the lateral shaping in pairs. What this arm movement (from my previous post) essentially feels like is a whole arm rotation to the left for the "thumb"third, and a whole arm rotation to the right for the "no thumb" third (or whatever chord is involved). So you actually practise the thirds in pairs with this rotational movement. It is also helpful to firstly try this approach in the Chopin Etude Op 10 No 7, which is more accessible than 25/6 and really lends itself to this kind of practice.


 As I said, the arm movement is a practice strategy in the slower learning stage that will definitely bring the performer to a controlled performance a lot quicker, than just trying to slog it out with the fingers alone. You said yourself in a previous post that you experienced a "rocking" motion occurring during your practice. What is this but arm movement?


There was a much earlier post (March 8 2004) from a respected and technically- informed forum member- Bernhard- who in his first sentence on the topic "Thirds" states that "thirds are played with the arm". He further explains that it is the whole arm that is involved with some elbow displacement.

Knowing what gestures - arm and hand choreography are involved in a given passage and then combining this with vital finger activity can bring mastery quickly, and as I said in the previous post, can make a piece accessible and capable of mastery a lot sooner than normal. It is not a secret. It is not the Alexander Technique. It is technical knowledge that can unlock the many vagaries of advanced technique that have been denied many aspiring pianists access to the virtuosic repertoire. Graeme Fitch is an inspiring teacher in this regard, as are writers like Georgy Sandor, Seymour Fink and Neil Stannard, amongst others.

My motive here is to help people play these advanced works. I was once in that place of having quite a lot of natural ability, but was often stymied by aspects of the technique when the repertoire became virtuosic. This knowledge has unlocked a lot of the mystery for me and brought a newfound freedom and confidence in my playing. Not to mention the joy of playing this repertoire that I felt was denied me. I simply wish to share and hope that some readers will try this approach.

[jimroof]

I guess this must have all come to me as second nature then. 

Breathing is a very complicated process too. 

[anamnesis]

I guess this must have all come to me as second nature then. 

Breathing is a very complicated process too. 

You'd be surprised at the amount of people who do not know how to breathe well. 

As for the fingers versus the arm debate, a lot of that is a matter of perception and can be reconciled by distinguishing between the actions of articulation that involves contact of the keyboard with the fingers, and the rhythmic actions between the production of tones which more heavily involves the rest of the playing mechanism. This is the essence of the technical debate that very few have tried to articulate out right and that even the best of pedagogues have only skirted around, with really only one notable exception.

The fingers can be used to help sustain and cue that rhythm, but they by themselves cannot generate it nor provide all of the proprioceptive feedback that refines it. 

Economy of motion requires the refining the efficiency of movement;however, where should that be perceived?  Here are a couple of thought questions. What is more gradated and refined? Many individual dots formed to make a curve or a smooth curve drawn in one stroke?  (A microscope may be needed to see what I believe is the answer.) Speaking of curves, take that drawing tool: the compass. Where is controlled to produce a smooth circle? The periphery or the center of its radius of action?

[jimroof]

To the original question...

Now that we have discussed how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, chased our tails in search of the age old question involving a chicken and an egg, considered that maybe - just maybe - the cart CAN push the horse... and more...

I would use 1-3/2-5 for the trills.  Stay relaxed.  Take your time.  Let your own body tell you how it is going to best achieve the goal of making it sound the way you want it to.