Is virtuosity still accessible

[kuska]

First of all, hi to everyone. I'm a new user here.

So, now to my questions   But first, my story:

I started learning piano when I was around 7 years old. I finished my primary music school, then I went to a regular secondary school and after a pause I returned to my piano when I was senior. Then I went to a music college at first and around that point I started my secondary music school. As I changed my major on the way, I dropped out from my music school as well. All in all I did like 9 years of formal piano education. And some of classical guitar in the college.

So, I finished my studies in the different field, started working full-time. Now I'm like 34 and last year I decided to do something with my life. You know, to make this journey inside myself to find out what I've lost during the process of growing up. I started violin in October. However as I continue to attend lesson I've started feeling this is not really my pair of shoes (even though it's better than guitar). And so I apologized my piano. I didn't like practicing downstairs on an upright piano as it is loud and I was like out of practice for years. So I've just bought recently Yamaha DGX 650B and it's changed a lot.

At first I had problems with a vista and my brain didn't want to put it together too well. But then I discovered that this is my real love and I was stupid to break up (how typical, right? ) and from that point things are getting more and more smooth.

The thing is, I've never been this type of a person that spends long hours in front of their instrument. I prefered sets of like 5-10 minutes, many a day and only when I was after my primary school (in the childhood I was never very keen on practicing dilligently). However my secondary piano teacher was telling me I do make progress and it's promising. In the past people used to believe one should start learning piano in a very young age but if I remember well (if not, please correct me) recently Chopin contest was won by a woman who started at age of 19.

So, do you think it is still possible for me, after such a break, to achieve some level of virtuosity and finger dexterity?

Btw, as I'm after such a long break (I guess like 10-13 years) is it possible to post on this forum recordings of my repertoire in order users could give me some advice as what to improve? As I've said: it's getting smoother but I'm pretty sure there're a lot things I've forgotten.

[bronnestam]

Hi and welcome here.  

First, you should know that postings of this kind occur rather frequently and the replies are rather predictable as well by now. There is a big group claiming that what you dream of is impossible because "experience shows that ... " and "nobody has done this before ..." and all that usual stuff. Heard by every pioneer and inventor in the history of mankind, by the way.

Then the "realists" who will rather harshly tell you that it is impossible to give an answer to that as we don't know you and have not heard you before etcetera.

And then the dreamers like me who say "anything is possible if you just put your mind into it". Etcetera.

So, I say, just pursue your dream and keep on working, and see where the road will take you. Follow your heart, to put it more poetically. It is foolish, to say the least, to give up a dream just because a bunch of self-appointed experts tell you that your chances are small. Don't ask for approval och wisdom outside yourself in this case - I don't mean you should not take any education in piano playing, of course, but that this nobody-has-done-it-before is SUCH RUBBISH. If you ask too much about what some strangers think your "chances" are, it is like you are asking for permission to pursue your dream. Or approval from an impressed audience.

I say, don't ask. Just do it. If you are just dreaming of becoming a celebrated artist and get lots of praise and fame, then I think you can find easier careers. But if your true love is about piano playing and piano music, then you should let nothing stand in your way. Just do it. Maybe you will make it, maybe you will one day find that you want to do something else - if you have been just honest to yourself, just followed your heart, you will answer to nobody and you can just be proud of yourself. It is your life; you should do what YOU like with it.

I think you can be as good as you believe you can be. Question is: how good DO you think you can be? And don't seek opinions from anyone else, just ask yourself.

[briansaddleback]

First of all, hi to everyone. I'm a new user here.


Tldr

Let me just answer simply without reading anything, if you really have to ask, I say no.


You won't achieve virtuosity.


Thanks. Hope this helps.

[pjjslp]

I say, don't ask. Just do it. If you are just dreaming of becoming a celebrated artist and get lots of praise and fame, then I think you can find easier careers. But if your true love is about piano playing and piano music, then you should let nothing stand in your way. Just do it. Maybe you will make it, maybe you will one day find that you want to do something else - if you have been just honest to yourself, just followed your heart, you will answer to nobody and you can just be proud of yourself. It is your life; you should do what YOU like with it.

I think you can be as good as you believe you can be. Question is: how good DO you think you can be? And don't seek opinions from anyone else, just ask yourself.

+1000

I have a similar background to yours (OP), I think. Serious study from age 5 to 19, then a long break with very occasional playing. I'm now in my mid-40s and have returned to playing and learning new pieces. My experience is, of course, my experience.... but I would say my musicality has improved as I've experienced a lot more LIFE since I was 19. It took some time and patience and exercises to regain dexterity in my fingers, but I have. I have mild arthritis that makes playing difficult and clunky some days, but other days I play better than I ever did. I also have the confidence and patience to take on pieces I always wanted to learn but didn't have the time or patience for. I practice in 20-30 minute stretches typically, thanks to the demands of family, work, etc. I don't really care if it takes me weeks or months to learn something new, because I have total freedom from deadlines, recitals, and exams.

I love to play. But, I have no intention to try to make a career out of it, or enter competitions or otherwise perform publicly. I honestly don't think I would have that in me anymore, mostly because my family and career need my time right now. Piano is how I relax, how I choose to spend my leisure time. I don't consider myself a virtuoso, never have. For me, virtuosity is no longer accessible, and I'm good with that.

Long way to say that I totally agree with bronnestam, do what makes you happy  . And yes, post recordings and I'm sure you will get some good feedback.

[adodd81802]

Then the "realists" who will rather harshly tell you that it is impossible to give an answer to that as we don't know you and have not heard you before etcetera.

1. This would be me, and so I also say no - to the virtuosity part, based just on what you've written. Let this not be confused with the ability to be able to learn to play great music even some of the most difficult, (as you mentioned SOME level of virtuosity) but I highly doubt that it would compare to the true virtuoso's unfortunately.

2. Yes to posting your performances for improvement.

3. Finally, to summarize. You cannot detail your life story minute by minute up until the present day in a short paragraph, on a piano site. Therefore you cannot get a truly accurate answer by anybody on this piano site. Only you honestly know, but the fact remains you have to go on the evidence you have, not the evidence you wished you had, and be real about your progress rather have your head up in your clouds whilst your hands crash and burn.

4. P.S - I would like the link to the Chopin contest you're referring too and background on the lady of which you claim had no prior knowledge of the instrument before the age of 19. (As a realist, evidence is key for 'us'!)

[kuska]

Thanks so much for thoughtful answers <3

To be honest, I wrote that a bit with attitude "oh, well, I'll probably try it anyway" as I wouldn't be myself if I didn't   But your opinions are important to me in a way that maybe someone had similar experience and knows how much one could still bend the reality. And you did. Thanks.

The thing is I've never achieved such speed like here:

, so that's why I'm a bit afraid right now as this is not only about regaining dexterity but going even further.

However, I'm aware also that my motivation is different now and my focus isn't centered on my brand new adult life rather than practicing. As far as I remember e.g. I've always had problems with staying with even rythimic values when tempo was going faster. And I wasn't too patient. Now I think I'm giving more attention to it. I'm still not very patient but I can take some more time if there's a need.

I don't dream of a classical career, but I guess I would like to be able to perform here and there and to make my own music for some money. But at the same time I need something to run for, if you know what I mean

4. P.S - I would like the link to the Chopin contest you're referring too and background on the lady of which you claim had no prior knowledge of the instrument before the age of 19. (As a realist, evidence is key for 'us'!) Cheesy

I wasn't sure about this, I did some research yesterday and I guess that was a hoax somebody sold me

[adodd81802]

However, I'm aware also that my motivation is different now and my focus isn't centered on my brand new adult life rather than practicing. As far as I remember e.g. I've always had problems with staying with even rythimic values when tempo was going faster. And I wasn't too patient. Now I think I'm giving more attention to it. I'm still not very patient but I can take some more time if there's a need.

I don't dream of a classical career, but I guess I would like to be able to perform here and there and to make my own music for some money. But at the same time I need something to run for, if you know what I mean

A career on some level is definitely possible if you are good at what it is you want a career in. You don't have to be a virtuoso to be a great piano teacher, you don't have to be the best classical pianist to play great jazz, and you certainly don't have to even be good at the piano if you want to compose.

If you want something to run for, make the goals, small and achievable, not look at one advanced difficult study and compare your current ability to that. If Czerny is what you're currently using to measure your ability or progress you will probably be aware there are many other of his books of studies that will be at your level that you can first complete before working towards the OP.740 and I believe 299? I can't remember the opus numbers, but there is also a preliminary book of dexterity.

Lastly don't confuse speed with virtuosity. True, it is often more difficult to play pieces of a faster tempo, but it is the performance that is 'virtuosic' (for use of a better word) not the piece itself.

You may have heard of Cziffra and Katsaris, 2 well known classical pianists. Cziffra was senior to Katsaris and a well respected pianist at his prime, with a competition dedicated to him. Here is Katsaris bringing him to tears with his performance of Grieg op.54 no.4

Where's the blistering speed, the crazy runs, the massive chords?

Lastly patience is most definitely key. The brain does not have an insta-learn switch. it takes years of dedication for true noticeable improvement, and so don't expect to pick up this op.740 in a couple weeks or even months with any real chance of tackling the pieces.

[visitor]

Really depends on how op defines virtuosity.
on my end i subscribe to the
definition used by gymnastics panels at worldclass events.
that is, effortless perfection in the executuon of fundamentals coupled with rare-uncommon creativity.
That is viruosity is the result of someone who is able to easily and consistently perform the basics perfextly while creating original expression to the highest levels of refinement.

Its a broad but applicable definition. If the natural talent and aptitude are already there, then with enough work and the right access to proper coaching, it can  be achieved

[kuska]

Have I mentioned I lack patience? I tried to record and here's the thing. I don't have any place to put my camera so that it doesn't stand so close to the Yamaha. But anyway I recorded Chopin avista, Preludium. It's also recorded once again (so in fact not that much of avista) just a sound. BUT. It turned out I don't have appropriate USB cable to take it off from Yamaha and I didn't want to wait until tomorrow. So I recorded it once again with a voice recorder ^^ There's some noise in the background but the sound is quite clear. I hope it doesn't bug you too much. If you still need to see my hands, I guess I'll record something with my boyfriend once I learn it well enough.

These recording are just what I am right now. Except for Chopin, these are like just a couple of hours practice. Only Gazebo a couple of days. There wasn't much more before, only like a Manha de Carnaval, which is also a popular one and some very easy etudes. So I guess this is a good evidence of my level just after a long break. And yes, I know I lack control over the sound What else?

https://soundcloud.com/alklonth/sets/exercises

P.S. Czerny is Exercises in Passage-Playing Op. 261, first two, for right hand and for left hand

[bernadette60614]

I've thought about this as well.  For me, the question becomes:  What level of virtuosity?

One of my favorite pianists is Kissin.  I've learned that his mother was a piano teacher, and that at some point, his piano teacher lived with his family.  I also love Glenn Gould, and if the documentary I viewed on him is true, his mother decided before he was born that her child would be a classical pianist.

If every moment of my life was suffused with piano from birth, I would doubtless be a far superior pianist than I am now!

I believe that I can achieve a level of virtuosity for someone who "took piano" for a few years as a teen, and started taking lessons again as a mature adult.  I am neither able....nor frankly willing...to play 4 to 7 hours a day (my piano teacher who makes a living as a pianist practices a minimum of 5 hours a day).  I will become as good as I can in 45 minutes to 90 minutes of practice a day.

 

[kuska]

Well, I can't say for you but in the past I dreamed a bit about finishing secondary piano school and passing diploma. I don't feel I need any paper anymore but I guess it would still be splendid to achieve that level. At least, maybe a student of music academy. As I've said I'm not even dreaming that big I'd work in philharmony e.g. but technical stuff is great for setting up challenges and maybe this is why I love piano. On one hand it's easy enough for me as practices don't tire me as other stuff could but on the other there's always something to improve. And it keeps you going.

Btw, c'mon, guys, no thoughts about the recordings? It could be just anything like "give us your hands" or "about level x" or even better what to work on right now. It's really hard to get a teacher in my town who would teach stuff after primary school (read: mission impossible), so I rely on you very much ^^

[reiyza]

3. Finally, to summarize. You cannot detail your life story minute by minute up until the present day in a short paragraph, on a piano site. Therefore you cannot get a truly accurate answer by anybody on this piano site. Only you honestly know, but the fact remains you have to go on the evidence you have, not the evidence you wished you had, and be real about your progress rather have your head up in your clouds whilst your hands crash and burn.

Off topic, this brings back lots of memories when I first started in january. I posted like this and hell, when I back read my posts. I sounded like a lost little lamb! Haha. I self studied some piece(s) by then, and when i realized that I wasn't improving and at the same time, accumulating bad habits, I got a teacher a month later.

To OP - it all comes down to what level you want to achieve, it will depend on how much devotion and structured plans you are willing to devote to the piano.

[timothy42b]

So, do you think it is still possible for me, after such a break, to achieve some level of virtuosity and finger dexterity?

No.

Your age alone does not prevent it.  34 is too old for the rarified competitive world of solo classical piano, but nowhere near too old to achieve a high level of skill.

Your approach will prevent it.  You are self teaching.  At least, none of your posts mention a teacher except for way back in secondary.  You cannot achieve a high level of skill without  good - not just average - instruction at your age.  You can get to some level of self satisfaction but you will hit a wall and it will be soon.  You may already be there and not know it.

Secondly, you are quick to let obstacles derail you, as your attempts to video your playing show. 

So, if you really do want to succeed, you have to:
1.  Set some realistic and measurable goals
2.  Get a good teacher (and change if the first one doesn't work out)
3.  Persist in the face of difficulties. 

[pjjslp]

Btw, c'mon, guys, no thoughts about the recordings? It could be just anything like "give us your hands" or "about level x" or even better what to work on right now. It's really hard to get a teacher in my town who would teach stuff after primary school (read: mission impossible), so I rely on you very much ^^

Well, your playing is ok. Most of the notes were right, although I think you skipped an entire measure toward the beginning in the Mozart (only listened once and didn't have the score in front of me). Musically, I didn't hear much variation in dynamics. I agree with Tim that you would really benefit from a good teacher, if you are looking to attain a high level of skill and ability to play advanced works. If there aren't any in your area, I'm sure you could find one to work over Skype or something. FYI, when I first started back to playing, my hands were clunky and lacking in dexterity, making trills and ornaments very difficult. A few weeks of Hanon got things moving better again (although I know many dislike Hanon, the exercises were just what my stiff old fingers needed to get moving). But, not knowing your previous abilities, I don't know if that might be helpful for you as well.

[kuska]

Well, your playing is ok. Most of the notes were right, although I think you skipped an entire measure toward the beginning in the Mozart (only listened once and didn't have the score in front of me).

I know what you're talking about but it wasn't me. If you listen carefully there's sometimes a tick hearable in that moment and I believe it was the voice recorder.

If there aren't any in your area, I'm sure you could find one to work over Skype or something. FYI, when I first started back to playing, my hands were clunky and lacking in dexterity, making trills and ornaments very difficult. A few weeks of Hanon got things moving better again (although I know many dislike Hanon, the exercises were just what my stiff old fingers needed to get moving). But, not knowing your previous abilities, I don't know if that might be helpful for you as well.

Thanks. Really precious. It sparkled through my mind that Skype would be a good solution but I wasn't sure there are some teachers. I'll search a bit. I'm from Poland, so hourly fee in pounds or dollars can be sometimes a wall for me as well but I'll search somebody first here, maybe around 30km from my town.

Secondly, you are quick to let obstacles derail you, as your attempts to video your playing show. 

I agree that I have problems like being demotivated but it is rather because of people not challenges in themselves. However, my point is, I know that and this is what I am working with from some time on. I was also diagnosed with vascular malformation of the brain and my migraines cause a huge problems in keeping focus but now I've worked through it for a big part really. And I don't agree my attempt to video showed that  There was some joke in it but what I meant was rather giving you something effective at that point. I've got my USB cable a day after. I found out I could try using a violin sheet stand but at that moment I just thought it was more important for you to see at what point I really am than to record it a week or two later when maybe I'm already further (or not). Of course the latter is also important but that way you'll be able to see if there's any improvement, right?

So, if you really do want to succeed, you have to:
1.  Set some realistic and measurable goals
2.  Get a good teacher (and change if the first one doesn't work out)
3.  Persist in the face of difficulties.

This is useful for me. Thanks

[adodd81802]

Thanks. Really precious. It sparkled through my mind that Skype would be a good solution but I wasn't sure there are some teachers. I'll search a bit. I'm from Poland, so hourly fee in pounds or dollars can be sometimes a wall for me as well but I'll search somebody first here, maybe around 30km from my town.

It surprises me that the land of Chopin is not riddled with piano teachers, are you that far from any main city? I went to a small concert in Krakow, I find the city itself is very proud of the Chopin heritage.

The benefits of Skype at least is that they do not even have to be in the same country.

If you have a genuine desire to improve, i'm happy to help you, as long as you're realistic about your goals and actually willing to learn.

[timothy42b]

FWIW.

I just had my first Skype lesson this week.
I thought it was every bit as effective as in person lessons.  The caveat is I've had in person lessons from this teacher in the past, and we know how each other works. 

[rullorh]

Evening, Kuska!

I was wondering where you live exactly, I'm from Poland and I would gladly see you every once in a while to give some feedback - providing you're not too far away.


Incidentally, this happens to be my first post on the forums, so: Hi, folks!

[timothy42b]

Evening, Kuska!

I was wondering where you live exactly, I'm from Poland and I would gladly see you every once in a while to give some feedback - providing you're not too far away.


Incidentally, this happens to be my first post on the forums, so: Hi, folks!

Welcome.  You seem to be a reasonable and good hearted chap.  I hope we see more of you, and I hope he takes advantage of your kind offer.  I suspect he would be a high maintenance student (English phrase that may not translate exactly) but he probably has potential. 

[kuska]

Evening, Kuska!

I was wondering where you live exactly, I'm from Poland and I would gladly see you every once in a while to give some feedback - providing you're not too far away.


Incidentally, this happens to be my first post on the forums, so: Hi, folks!

Hi
Sure, I'd be more than glad. I'm West Pomeranian. I only have an option like 30km from my town there's a bigger city or 2 hours from here by train is another one with secondary school. Unless you are from one of them, I'm afraid you ARE far away But maybe Skype?

[rullorh]

(An utterly irrelevant block of text used to be here.)

[pjjslp]

If you do, feel free to record yourself and show us your super-sexy uber-equal semiquavers. Aren't they hot, folks.

I think your English is fabulous! Thanks for the laugh!

I may be too new myself to offer a welcome, but welcome 

[kuska]

Lol. Thanks. I'll try it. There's a chance my violin teacher will find my a piano teacher . Depends if he's going to come back from UK in July