finger problems!

[protescent]

i'm have problems with my pinky finger and the finger next to it...i can't lift them up high  enough to achieve the strength needed for my fast piece. whenever i play a scale which puts those fingers next to each other, the sounds mush together and it sounds terrible! how can i solve this issue and increase those two fingers' strength?

[Bacfokievrahms]

maybe try tilting your hand so that your pinky and your finger next to your pinky are naturally higher without having to raise them?

[protescent]

its kinda hard to do quick enough for my piece which is winter wind by chopin. (etude  op.25 no 11 I believe)

[protescent]

i guess what im looking for is an excercise maybe that will increase the strength of those two fingers. what i try to do right now is practice playing two keys next to each other using only those fingers very quickly. i don't think it's helping though because however hard i try it's still impossible for me to play those keys quickly and powerfully.

[MatthewClarke]

I lifted my fingers high for years, trust me it just gets in the way.
Now I have eliminated all lifting of anything, the only way to make a sound is a simple, quick down action and now my technique is better than ever before WITHOUT TRYING.
You have enough strength to be able to play a note down right? So it is not about strength, you have enough strength, try working on not lifting for strength, but using small coordinated movements, using your mind and ear and not the physical lifting.
Read Act Of Touch.. Tobias Matthay.

[xvimbi]

i guess what im looking for is an excercise maybe that will increase the strength of those two fingers. what i try to do right now is practice playing two keys next to each other using only those fingers very quickly. i don't think it's helping though because however hard i try it's still impossible for me to play those keys quickly and powerfully.

I assume that you are a beginner, because every beginning pianist runs into this "problem". This issue has been discussed over the centuries by every pianist, and so have we on this forum many times. Search for "finger strength", and you will find a few threads, I'm sure.

More to the point: I recommend you stop the "exercise" you are doing - immediately. It will lead to injury. Piano playing is not achieved by moving the fingers. It is achieved by mobilizing the entire playing apparatus (torso, shoulders, upper arm, foreram, wrists, hand, fingers), where the fingers are the last element in the chain. Many would say, the fingers are not even the most important ones.

It is an anatomical fact that the fingers cannot have the same strength by themselves, and they cannot be independent, particularly fingers 3, 4, and 5. It is highly recommended to educate yourself in these matters to avoid acquiring misconceptions and to avoid getting injuries (lifting fingers high and with force is a sure way to injury).

To give the fingers similar strength, one has to involve the forearm by correctly positioning the hand and the fingers over the keys, as well as rotating the forearm and using the weight of arm and hand to route force through to the fingers, so that the finger itself should have to do very little to produce the sound you want.

All this is very advanced, and you will need a knowledgeable teacher to guide you through this, but this is among the most important and basic aspects of piano technique. Most pianists do not pay enough attention to it and as a consequence end up injured (about 80% of all pianists have injuries).

Finally, it is best to stay away from any exercise for finger strength and independence (e.g. Hanon, Czerny), unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing. Finger independence is an entirely neurological process. It has more to do with "telling" those muscles that are not supposed to do anything to - well - not do anything. It is a matter of coordination, not strength. To repeat it again: fingers 4 and 5 cannot be independent.

Good luck!

[Edgar]

Excellent post, xvimbi ! I could not agree more with the concepts you expressed so clearly.

protescent, in addition to a "movement aware" piano teacher, I think Alexander Technique would also be beneficial to you. Especially if you took AT lessons from someone who had already worked with pianists.

[ehpianist]

great post xvimbi, all true.  I am not fond of excercises myself but if you want to chekc out finger-independence excercises which focus on different all fingers, look at Ernst Dohnanyi "Essential Finger Exercises (for obtaining a sure piano technique) ".

Do not do these without letting your teacher explain how to use your arms to help, otherwise its a recipe for hand and arm troubles, but they are fun for a little while.  Good for when I used to think I needed "warming up".

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[richard w]

Most pianists do not pay enough attention to it and as a consequence end up injured (about 80% of all pianists have injuries).

That's an alarming statistic, xvimbi. When you say 'pianists' are you referring to professional players, or all 'piano players' of some competence (say ABRSM Grade 6-8 and above), or in-between somewhere? And by 'injuries' do you mean things which prevent pianists from playing altogether, things which limit the amount of playing that can be undertaken, things which pianists are receiving therapeutic treatment for, injuries the pianist doesn't even know are there but which flair up occasionally under certain types of playing, etc? I'm also a little curious as to where you get your figure form.

Thanks.



Richard.

[xvimbi]

That's an alarming statistic, xvimbi. When you say 'pianists' are you referring to professional players, or all 'piano players' of some competence (say ABRSM Grade 6-8 and above), or in-between somewhere? And by 'injuries' do you mean things which prevent pianists from playing altogether, things which limit the amount of playing that can be undertaken, things which pianists are receiving therapeutic treatment for, injuries the pianist doesn't even know are there but which flair up occasionally under certain types of playing, etc? I'm also a little curious as to where you get your figure form.

The numbers that float around are all in this range (this particular number is from the Taubman Institute), and they do refer to any pianist and all those types of injury you listed above. If you have the chance, ask any pianist what problems they have had. I have yet to find one who didn't have problems. When I inquired further, they almost always said that their problems were due to a faulty technique and that the problems went away once they had sorted out the correct movements. Those who tried to play through injuries warned dearly not to do this ever (the best known pianist I heard this from is Andre Watts). The remaining small percentage acquired injuries in other ways (for example breaking a finger by smashing it into the wood instead of into the keys).

Barring any anomalies, it appears to be possible to play without any problems whatsoever. The reason this practically never happens is because beginners are usually more interested in playing notes than playing in a physiologically correct way. This is rarely taught from the beginning, yet I believe it should be the very first thing, before talking about any music. Definitely, adult beginners, who can grasp advanced concepts a lot more easily, should pay great attention to correct technique from the start. Unfortunately, not too many teachers are familiar with the intricacies of the human playing apparatus. In addition, there are so many myths out there that myriads of teachers pass on to myriads of students without critical evaluation that it is difficult to tackle the problem at the root. One of those myths is that it is possible to acquire complete independence for fingers 4 and 5.

[andy21]

I recently bought a copy of Hanon's "The Virtuoso Pianist", which is sixty practice excercies designed for regular use to strenghthen the fingers (especially the fourth and fifth) of each hand. I find it very good, and use it to start all my practice sessions as it helps give good dexterity.  Anyone else seen or used "TVP"? What did you think of it?
Anyway, I would recommend it and it's very cheap!

Andy.

[xvimbi]

I recently bought a copy of Hanon's "The Virtuoso Pianist", which is sixty practice excercies designed for regular use to strenghthen the fingers (especially the fourth and fifth) of each hand. I find it very good, and use it to start all my practice sessions as it helps give good dexterity.  Anyone else seen or used "TVP"? What did you think of it?
Anyway, I would recommend it and it's very cheap!

Hanon? Never heard of it!

Just kidding. Search for Hanon on this forum, and you'll find a range of opinions on it. Also, the first few posts in this thread talk about it (explicitely and indirectly).

Although Hanon and similar exercises were considered the pinnacle of piano technique exercises a while back, more and more people are now convinced that they are a sure way to injury. At any rate, these exercises have to be done under strict supervision by someone who knows exactly how to execute them and what they can and cannot do. For example, Hanon or Czerny exercises played in the way they are described by their authors will invariably lead to injury. Their value is highly questionable. It's best to stay away from them.