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Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed) (Read 1768 times)

Offline blackpianistjp

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Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
« on: May 18, 2016, 04:45:54 PM »
Hello,

Actually it's not so speedy but I was just saying :)
Just a quick play through after about a decade of non playing it. I want to see if there's advantage doing it and hence document people about that. Follow the project by subscribing if you like !

I will tweak !

Exercise n°1 :



Latest video : http://youtu.be/fquKQw6Doj8
My story in Japan : Www.facebook.com/royceinjapan

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 09:58:02 PM »
Can you post videos of you playing all the scales while you're at it? Also, the arpeggios...

Or you could maybe not? Why would you post videos of Hanon??? Seriously? Hanon is to help you develop your technique. It's not really going to help anyone by watching it.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #2 on: May 19, 2016, 02:19:14 AM »
Slow down you are slipping mostly obvious between 454. Try accenting your 1 and 5.
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Offline blackpianistjp

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 12:46:46 PM »
Thanks advice!

Arpeggios ! Very good !
Hanon n°2


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Offline adodd81802

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 01:43:11 PM »
Thanks advice!

Arpeggios ! Very good !
Hanon n°2


Sub to have them directly in inbox !

Hello there. I don't think people will be subbing. You've got quick fingers, use them on some more musical pieces.

Question, what's your left hand - little finger doing. I can't make my finger go that high if I try let alone automatically. I do have a bit of right hand pinky wandering that i'm working on stopping.
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Offline indianajo

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 01:46:58 PM »
NOBODY performs hanon on stage for an audience. 
This belongs under student topics. 

Offline adodd81802

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #6 on: May 19, 2016, 02:22:02 PM »
NOBODY performs hanon on stage for an audience. 
This belongs under student topics. 
+1
"England is a country of pianos, they are everywhere."

Offline mjames

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 02:35:54 PM »
proof that yet again PS regulars only like to post for negativity XDD
tho I think this is kinda stupid (lol hanon), guys going like "omg pls post real pisses insteaDD"
where were you when he posted this:




?? ?? ??

If this is for publicity, you got it XDD
BTW, why wont you speak in Japanese??!?!?

KIMI WA, HANONNNNNN NO JUTSU!!!!!!!!!

anyways you've got plenty of good videos man, post those instead. no one here cares about hanon lol.
(even i can do that, and I suck lol)

oh and be a part of the community, dont just post videos to hype up your views.  ::) being good aint enough, people will only really care if you're a part of the community.
Composing/improvising

Chopin's 4th ballade and 3rd sonata.
Scriabin Op. 42 no. 1, 2, and 3.
Bach Partita No.4

Offline indianajo

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #8 on: May 19, 2016, 05:15:45 PM »
proof that yet again PS regulars only like to post for negativity XDD

oh and be a part of the community, dont just post videos to hype up your views.  ::) being good aint enough, people will only really care if you're a part of the community.
I can't look at videos with this old computer, the shockwave plugin has been hacked.  The replacement from adobe won't run on a Pentium4 CPU with 1gb ram with Lubuntu12 op system.
I bought the second condensor mike for $140 late March, was tuning the piano to record Pictures @ an Exhibition. I fell on my shoulder 4/3/16 bringing in the mail.  2 ripped tendons, 5 tears in muscles.  Surgery was 4/19, I will be allowed to tie my shoes 6/1.  Piano playing with right hand is banned by the surgeon, no word on when I can.  Golf putting and doubles tennis (which I don't do) are allowed in October. 

Offline pjjslp

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 06:01:15 PM »
Hello,

Actually it's not so speedy but I was just saying :)
Just a quick play through after about a decade of non playing it. I want to see if there's advantage doing it and hence document people about that. Follow the project by subscribing if you like !

I will tweak !

Exercise n°1 :





I'm not sure why I watched that and won't be watching any others, but I think you would get more out of the exercises if you played them slower but evenly. Your fingers are crazy fast (and that left pinky is distracting!) but those notes were not even, which is sort of the point of Hanon. If you're going to do it fast but sloppy, I'm not sure what you are hoping to gain.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 09:52:30 PM »
Slow down you are slipping mostly obvious between 454. Try accenting your 1 and 5.

Erm... the goal is to ensure that the fingers are all even in touch, so I wouldn't accent the 1 or the 5.

Can you post videos of you playing all the scales while you're at it? Also, the arpeggios...

And... that was sarcasm. Hate to break it to you. My point originally was to post some decent repertoire - not little exercises. As Mjames pointed out - you clearly have some good videos of repertoire, but I seem to have been a bit pre-occupied with work to see them. My fault.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 10:52:04 PM »
Hello,

Actually it's not so speedy but I was just saying :)
Just a quick play through after about a decade of non playing it. I want to see if there's advantage doing it and hence document people about that. Follow the project by subscribing if you like !

I will tweak !

Exercise n°1 :




Okay, this individual is promoting similar things in his other videos, which reference piano technique.

In that he is using a non-grand piano for these videos, it begs the question as to how realistic these so-called instructional videos are.

Once again, why waste your genuine/sincere comments on someone who is perpetrating (IN MY OPINION) a pedagogical fraud!

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #12 on: May 20, 2016, 01:48:42 AM »
Erm... the goal is to ensure that the fingers are all even in touch, so I wouldn't accent the 1 or the 5.
I don't think so, you can put accents into your hanon, you can alter whatever you like :)
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #13 on: May 20, 2016, 09:09:45 AM »
I don't think so, you can put accents into your hanon, you can alter whatever you like :)

I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. I know it is true to alter the rhythm to get technical expertise in the dexterity of all fingers (especially fingers 4 & 5), but I'm pretty sure that accenting the thumb and pinky is a HUGE no no.

The goal is to gain the strength in fingers 4 & 5 as much as the other fingers 1, 2 & 3 have. By accenting the pinky you are taking away the control given to the pinky finger (in my opinion).

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #14 on: May 20, 2016, 10:18:01 AM »
I'm pretty sure that accenting the thumb and pinky is a HUGE no no.

When I used to play Hanon I would practise  accenting every 4th note, 3rd note, or 6th note, then play it without accents. I found varying the accents a great way to even out my playing.

Offline blackpianistjp

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #15 on: May 20, 2016, 01:12:51 PM »
proof that yet again PS regulars only like to post for negativity XDD
tho I think this is kinda stupid (lol hanon), guys going like "omg pls post real pisses insteaDD"
where were you when he posted this:




?? ?? ??

If this is for publicity, you got it XDD
BTW, why wont you speak in Japanese??!?!?

KIMI WA, HANONNNNNN NO JUTSU!!!!!!!!!

anyways you've got plenty of good videos man, post those instead. no one here cares about hanon lol.
(even i can do that, and I suck lol)

oh and be a part of the community, dont just post videos to hype up your views.  ::) being good aint enough, people will only really care if you're a part of the community.

I thought about participating and giving advice if I can. If I see something I can relate to I'll gladly do so.

Exercise n°3 :
Latest video : http://youtu.be/fquKQw6Doj8
My story in Japan : Www.facebook.com/royceinjapan

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #16 on: May 20, 2016, 03:27:20 PM »
That's it... I am so unsubscribing to this thread.

Given I can play the Hanon exercises myself, I don't see the point in uploading them like this.

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #17 on: May 20, 2016, 03:46:30 PM »
@ the OP, with all due respect, if you're going to do this is as a technical exercise, do it properly, otherwise you are doing yourself a disservice. Most importantly, it is audibly uneven. Watch this: it has no musical merit, but might be informative.


IF I was going to do these exercises, I would be starting at maximum two notes per second and making sure each finger was very clearly and distinctly articulated.

Offline blackpianistjp

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #18 on: May 20, 2016, 04:33:56 PM »
@ the OP, with all due respect, if you're going to do this is as a technical exercise, do it properly, otherwise you are doing yourself a disservice. Most importantly, it is audibly uneven. Watch this: it has no musical merit, but might be informative.


IF I was going to do these exercises, I would be starting at maximum two notes per second and making sure each finger was very clearly and distinctly articulated.

You can play each exercise slowly, then when clear go to the next, or bulk play rather speedy, and tweak along the way implement slow practice.
I ve not been playing the piano for so long, still about 15+ years and based on my experience, both are possible, so don't worry :)

FRD, great pianist, I have a friend who had dinner with him recently. He is of course fast and clear, Though the last acceleration of the Hanon not.
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Offline georgey

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #19 on: May 20, 2016, 04:40:12 PM »
I feel like we 've done this before.  Here is "my guy" playing it.  I stopped playing Hanon although 90% of my practice time is doing exercises I call pre-Hanon to undue major technique problems I developed. You would not believe how slow I play the exercises.



Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #20 on: May 20, 2016, 04:52:24 PM »
I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. I know it is true to alter the rhythm to get technical expertise in the dexterity of all fingers (especially fingers 4 & 5), but I'm pretty sure that accenting the thumb and pinky is a HUGE no no.

The goal is to gain the strength in fingers 4 & 5 as much as the other fingers 1, 2 & 3 have. By accenting the pinky you are taking away the control given to the pinky finger (in my opinion).
Yeah well the accenting is a useful tool to use I don't feel like writing pages trying to describe lol, hanon can be altered no problems for me. If you don't want to do it then you need good reasons not to.
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Offline louispodesta

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #21 on: May 20, 2016, 10:52:07 PM »
That's it... I am so unsubscribing to this thread.

Given I can play the Hanon exercises myself, I don't see the point in uploading them like this.
God forbid that someone even acknowledge one of my posts, other than to derail me as the original performance practice nut!

["Okay, this individual is promoting similar things in his other videos, which reference piano technique. . .  Once again, why waste your genuine/sincere comments on someone who is perpetrating (IN MY OPINION) a pedagogical fraud!"]

Further, Hanon Exercises, like any exercises are similar/fraudulent in nature.  In that, there are no muscles in your fingers.  They are comprised of ligaments, tendons, bones, and cartilage.

Is it important that they be strengthened carefully and methodogically as any student advances through the repertoire?  The answer is a resounding yes!

Will the Hanon exercises do that (in terms of evenness, or anything else)?  The answer, in my opinion, is a resounding no!

After wasting 30 years of my life on this carp (and before that seeing my own father do the same for a much longer period of time), methinks that I do have some credibility on this issue.

Offline georgey

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #22 on: May 21, 2016, 03:32:42 AM »
Hello,

Actually it's not so speedy but I was just saying :)
Just a quick play through after about a decade of non playing it. I want to see if there's advantage doing it and hence document people about that. Follow the project by subscribing if you like !

I will tweak !

Exercise n°1 :



Hello,

I am a beginner self-taught piano player.  Here are my thoughts:

You say “Actually it's not so speedy but I was just saying.”  I think your playing is speedy.  It is well above the maximum tempo that Hanon recommends.  As others have pointed out, you are also playing unevenly.  I agree with them.  I believe you are working to correct this, which is great.  You may want to consider slowing down to accomplish this.

You say “Just a quick play through after about a decade of non playing it. I want to see if there is advantage doing it and hence document people about that.”  It looks to me like you plan on practicing Hanon now to see if practicing Hanon improves your playing.  You will report your findings to your followers and they can decide if they want to practice Hanon based on your findings.  I am going to assume this is what you are doing.

Case 1: You make significant improvements in your playing relative to the time you spend on Hanon.  You probably will not guarantee the same good results to your followers, but you can tell them that it worked for you and give them tips on how to practice it.

Case 2: You make no significant improvements in your playing relative to the time you spend on Hanon.  You probably will not guarantee the same bad results for your followers, but you can tell them that it did not work for you BASED ON HOW YOU CHOSE TO PRACTICE THE EXERCISES.  You may decide to mention to your followers that there is a chance that you were not practicing them correctly.

The following is in Wikipedia under Hanon.  Please feel free to edit Wikipedia if you disagree with any of it.

“Piano students all over the world know of Hanon’s famous training exercises. Both Sergei Rachmaninoff and Josef Lhévinne claimed Hanon to be the secret of why the Russian piano school delivered an explosion of virtuosi in their time, for the Hanon exercises have been obligatory for a long time throughout Russian conservatories; there were special examinations at which one had to know all exercises by heart, to be played in all tonalities at high speed.

Although most respected pedagogues and pianists acknowledge the value of Hanon's exercises, they have their detractors. Some critics have questioned the merits of the independent finger technique which the exercises seek to cultivate, with some pedagogues, such as Abby Whiteside, considering them to be actively harmful.”

Regardless of your findings about Hanon, you may want to at least mention to your followers that some very famous people think Hanon is great while others believe Hanon is harmful. We know that it is possible for people to play great without Hanon.  Examples:  Liszt, Chopin, etc.  The question is can Hanon help others learn to play great in a more efficient way.  I’m hoping that you will not view the findings of your study as “THE ANSWER” to the question on Hanon.  Good luck with your study.

Offline jimroof

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #23 on: May 21, 2016, 04:13:37 AM »
God forbid that someone even acknowledge one of my posts, other than to derail me as the original performance practice nut!

["Okay, this individual is promoting similar things in his other videos, which reference piano technique. . .  Once again, why waste your genuine/sincere comments on someone who is perpetrating (IN MY OPINION) a pedagogical fraud!"]

Further, Hanon Exercises, like any exercises are similar/fraudulent in nature.  In that, there are no muscles in your fingers.  They are comprised of ligaments, tendons, bones, and cartilage.

Is it important that they be strengthened carefully and methodogically as any student advances through the repertoire?  The answer is a resounding yes!

Will the Hanon exercises do that (in terms of evenness, or anything else)?  The answer, in my opinion, is a resounding no!

After wasting 30 years of my life on this carp (and before that seeing my own father do the same for a much longer period of time), methinks that I do have some credibility on this issue.

While I am not a proponent of mindless exercises... it matters not WHERE the muscles are that control the fingers.  It matters that the fingers are trained.  The muscles could all be somewhere in my left ankle.  The fact remains, it takes training and smart practice to make them work.

I was fortunate enough to somehow have developed enough technique through just the literature to have never owned a copy of Hanon, Czerny or any other 'opus' of 'finger' exercises.  However, I definitely believe that scales and arpeggios are a refining tool that not ONLY build strength and agility, but also add to one's musical vocabulary.  I cannot read through any Beethoven or Mozart Sonata without numerous passages in which scales and arpeggios have already paved the way.
Chopin Ballades
Chopin Scherzos 2 and 3
Mephisto Waltz 1
Beethoven Piano Concerto 3
Schumann Concerto Am
Ginastera Piano Sonata
L'isle Joyeuse
Feux d'Artifice
Prokofiev Sonata Dm

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #24 on: May 21, 2016, 12:33:05 PM »
I was fortunate enough to somehow have developed enough technique through just the literature to have never owned a copy of Hanon, Czerny or any other 'opus' of 'finger' exercises.

Czerny has his moments but I agree with you. You should develop your technique through careful study of the repertoire. Good technique is as much about control and musical insight as it is about manual dexterity, and there's no shortage of music in the repertoire that can help you develop nimble fingers. I think for Jazz and improvising pianists, certain kinds of technical exercise could have some value though.

Offline visitor

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #25 on: May 21, 2016, 01:43:41 PM »

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #26 on: May 21, 2016, 11:18:22 PM »
["I was fortunate enough to somehow have developed enough technique through just the literature to have never owned a copy of Hanon, Czerny or any other 'opus' of 'finger' exercises.  However, I definitely believe that scales and arpeggios are a refining tool that not ONLY build strength and agility, but also add to one's musical vocabulary.  I cannot read through any Beethoven or Mozart Sonata without numerous passages in which scales and arpeggios have already paved the way."]

Thank you for stating what the late Earl Wild, stated in his Memoir.

That is (using my philosopher side), inductively, piano literature pieces contain scale passages and also arpeggios.  Therefore it follows:  that when we separate these particular compositional devices into separate exercises,  then it follows:  this improves a particular pianists technique. 

Earl Wild says no, and so do I.

For the record, Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, nor Dr. Thomas Mark, had not nor have not had anything to do with Hanon exercises or anyone else's'.  Their pedagogically thesis/science is based on the writings of Tobias Matthay and also the Alexander's (whole body) technique.

Further, I will break it down to a level most of you can understand, which will sound demeaning.  Instead, it is directed towards your so-called expert teachers, who are teaching/talking down to you as follows:

If want to learn how to use a hammer (old school) or a mechanical hammer/nail gun, then I just need to get a set of blocks and then practice that technique.  And, initially, that is the way this is taught.

However, the best way (with carpentry, or the piano) is to practice and learn skills on the job which specifically apply to the skill task at hand.

Piano exercises are garbage, and no one can produce any Kinesiologist in the world who can present a shred of empirical evidence that directly shows that any piano exercise produces effective or improve piano technique.

Offline georgey

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #27 on: May 22, 2016, 01:26:32 AM »
["I was fortunate enough to somehow have developed enough technique through just the literature to have never owned a copy of Hanon, Czerny or any other 'opus' of 'finger' exercises.  However, I definitely believe that scales and arpeggios are a refining tool that not ONLY build strength and agility, but also add to one's musical vocabulary.  I cannot read through any Beethoven or Mozart Sonata without numerous passages in which scales and arpeggios have already paved the way."]

Thank you for stating what the late Earl Wild, stated in his Memoir.

That is (using my philosopher side), inductively, piano literature pieces contain scale passages and also arpeggios.  Therefore it follows:  that when we separate these particular compositional devices into separate exercises,  then it follows:  this improves a particular pianists technique.  

Earl Wild says no, and so do I.

For the record, Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, nor Dr. Thomas Mark, had not nor have not had anything to do with Hanon exercises or anyone else's'.  Their pedagogically thesis/science is based on the writings of Tobias Matthay and also the Alexander's (whole body) technique.

Further, I will break it down to a level most of you can understand, which will sound demeaning.  Instead, it is directed towards your so-called expert teachers, who are teaching/talking down to you as follows:

If want to learn how to use a hammer (old school) or a mechanical hammer/nail gun, then I just need to get a set of blocks and then practice that technique.  And, initially, that is the way this is taught.

However, the best way (with carpentry, or the piano) is to practice and learn skills on the job which specifically apply to the skill task at hand.

Piano exercises are garbage, and no one can produce any Kinesiologist in the world who can present a shred of empirical evidence that directly shows that any piano exercise produces effective or improve piano technique.


Mr. Podesta,

I did buy the “What every pianist needs  …..” by Thomas Mark that you recommended. Thank you for recommending this.  I am still working to get through this book.

I have to say that I have been reading the last post of yours for over 20 minutes now and I am having trouble figuring out what you are saying, perhaps due to my difficulty with your writing style.   I read jimroof’s comments and I understand them and I am in complete agreement with everything he said.

I am wondering why you say the following so authoritatively as if it is undisputed fact.  If you simply add the wording “In my opinion and I believe in the opinion of some others that are well respected” in front of “Piano exercises are garbage”, then who am I to disagree?

Franz Liszt was a fine pianist.  I think he may have written 12 books of piano exercises and I assume he spent many hours practicing them.  If it is fact that “piano exercises are garbage”, how do account for his high level of playing ability?  I doubt that he consulted a Kinesiologist.  I agree that exercises must be practiced properly if they are practiced.

Edit: Maybe we have different definitions on what is a "Piano exercise"?  I am assuming that scales and arpeggios are examples of piano exercise.  A scale in a piece of music (say a Beethoven sonata) is not an exercise because it is in a piece of music?  But practice a 4 octave scale as in Hanon and it becomes an exercise?  Not sure what you mean by "piano exercise".

Edit 2: I agree that some exercises may be garbage.  You say "Piano exercises are garbage, and no one can produce any Kinesiologist in the world who can present a shred of empirical evidence that directly shows that ANY piano exercise produces effective or improve piano technique." This implies to me that you believe it is a fact that ALL exercises are garbage.


Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #28 on: May 22, 2016, 01:56:15 PM »
I almost want to add an



to the end of what Georgey said...

Offline jimroof

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #29 on: May 22, 2016, 04:40:19 PM »

Piano exercises are garbage, and no one can produce any Kinesiologist in the world who can present a shred of empirical evidence that directly shows that any piano exercise produces effective or improve piano technique.


I think your pendulum just swung back a little too far on that statement.

A piano exercise most definitely CAN and WILL produce a positive result.  It is an indisputable fact of the human body that training the body and mind MAKES A DIFFERENCE.  When I played Chopin's Scherzo 3 I turned the cascading 'glittery' flourishes into an exercise when I decided to practice those sections over and over again.  I absolutely gained from that.  What if Hanon had written a similar figure an called it an exercise?  Would that suddenly make it a waste of my time?

Any time a pianist practices a section over and over they are turning it into an exercise. 

It should not take an expert to realize that repetition of difficult passages does WORK.  I think it works whether you call the repeated passage an etude or an exercise.

Chopin Ballades
Chopin Scherzos 2 and 3
Mephisto Waltz 1
Beethoven Piano Concerto 3
Schumann Concerto Am
Ginastera Piano Sonata
L'isle Joyeuse
Feux d'Artifice
Prokofiev Sonata Dm

Offline blackpianistjp

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #30 on: May 24, 2016, 01:26:53 PM »
Exercise n°4 :



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Offline josh93248

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Re: Hanon (Technical exercise run through - High speed)
«Reply #31 on: May 24, 2016, 02:12:27 PM »
I'd like to seriously suggest that you ignore Hanon and virtually all mechanical exercises entirely. I used to do them quite a bit but never felt like they went much of anywhere or really helped. I think focusing on pieces is far more important and useful.

I would write more on that suggestion but I'm not sure you're here for any other reason than to promote yourself so until I see you engage a little more, such as with all these people who have posted extensively on your own thread, I am not impressed. In any sense. That is not saying I hate you, I should actually add that if you contribute to the forum and post something musical I'm more than willing to give you a chance. I think many others may feel similarly.
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