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Topic: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion  (Read 5084 times)

Offline louispodesta

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Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
on: May 19, 2016, 10:15:19 PM
In that I am now ready to memorize and polish this piece, I need some advice/comments regarding the fingerings in regards the first section of Variation Number IV (Book I).

When you listen to famous recordings of this piece, it appears that everyone is using fingers four and five to effectuate the trill.  However, when you look at some live You Tube versions, you get the impression that most people use fingers two and three to do the heavy lifting on this trill. 

Additionally, I have seen 4-5, 1-3, and then 4-5, which with my small hand is very comfortable.

I will now list the link to two pianists who do the former:





Thanks and any comments you might have would be most appreciated.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 09:05:26 AM
Seriously... Why did you post this again???

You already had a thread on not only this exact piece, but on this EXACT VARIATION???

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Offline louispodesta

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #2 on: May 20, 2016, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: perfect_pitch on May 20, 2016, 09:05:26 AM
Seriously... Why did you post this again???

You already had a thread on not only this exact piece, but on this EXACT VARIATION???


Because, other than the trollers (?), I did not assume that those who follow the "Student" forum also read the "Performance" forum.

This is a very advanced technical problem, and therefore, I thought that some "performers" who have actually played this piece might have something to offer.

I guess I just answered my question regarding trollers.

Once again, can anyone help me out (with any and all suggestions regarding fingerings) on this particular Brahms Paganini variation?

Thanks.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 06:31:55 AM
EXCUSE ME???

I hope you don't mean to infer that I am a troll, considering I was the only one who posted on your original thread. My thoughts on the matter were genuine. I slaved over this piece and spent a lot of time really working that 4-5 trill on those octaves.

Yes, it's awkward and yes, trying to do 10ths is hard, but if you can barely reach a 10th and I can barely reach a 10th, then I'd say don't take shortcuts. Yuja Wang may not be able to reach a 10th (I don't know), but considering you can (just), you should be able to do an octave with 45 trill on top.

For someone who has had a bit of a chequered past on this forum (meaning you...), I would refrain from calling me a troll. Given that you posted the same thing twice, I think it's clear that the troll is yourself.
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Offline minor9th

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 06:43:25 PM
Quote from: perfect_pitch on May 21, 2016, 06:31:55 AM
EXCUSE ME???

I hope you don't mean to infer that I am a troll,
No, he implied it--you inferred it!  ;D

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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 09:56:52 PM
Either way - still insulting.

I noticed he hasn't even replied to this thread, despite replying and posting in others...

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Offline louispodesta

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 10:26:59 PM
Quote from: minor9th on May 22, 2016, 06:43:25 PM
No, he implied it--you inferred it!  ;D


Very well put, as his first post said nothing specific to my post.  However, now that he has to put up or shut up, all of a sudden he has genuine comments to bring, such as:

["I slaved over this piece and spent a lot of time really working that 4-5 trill on those octaves.

Yes, it's awkward and yes, trying to do 10ths is hard, but if you can barely reach a 10th and I can barely reach a 10th, then I'd say don't take shortcuts. Yuja Wang may not be able to reach a 10th (I don't know), but considering you can (just), you should be able to do an octave with 45 trill on top."]

On point, Yuja Wang has fingers like a spider, if "perfectpitch" had taken the time to view the video.  She does not need an alternate fingering, per the morphology of her hand.

The point is, as stated by Earl Wild (gigantic hands) in his Memoir:  every concert pianist he had ever known used their own particular fingerings, as well as note re-distributions, to adjust to their own hand.

Trilling with 4 and 5, unless your bone, ligament, tendon and joint structure can handle it, is not only dangerous, it is a stupid waste of time.  And, it can permanently (alla Schumann) wreck your hand.

Finally, is there not someone out there who has knowledge of an alternate fingering for this particular varitation?
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Offline minor9th

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #7 on: May 23, 2016, 12:09:47 AM
Quote from: louispodesta on May 22, 2016, 10:26:59 PM
Very well put, as his first post said nothing specific to my post.  

It really irks me when people use poor grammar or spelling when insulting someone. One of my favorites is "Your a moran."  :o

Sorry, but I can't help you with your fingering problems. I saw Daniil Trifonov give a mind-blowing performance of those Variations a few months ago, but I was too far away to accurately gauge specific fingerings, plus I was just enjoying his playing!
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #8 on: May 23, 2016, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: louispodesta on May 22, 2016, 10:26:59 PM
Very well put, as his first post said nothing specific to my post. 

My first post in this thread was how you completely disregarded what I posted in the other thread about the exact same topic.

You disregarded my first post in your original thread. Please don't try and bend the truth.

I was genuinely trying to help you as a pianist and a fellow forum member, however if you're going to be this hostile, then maybe there's a reason people are refusing to respond to your threads.
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Offline louispodesta

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 10:47:45 PM
Quote from: minor9th on May 23, 2016, 12:09:47 AM
It really irks me when people use poor grammar or spelling when insulting someone. One of my favorites is "Your a moran."  :o

Sorry, but I can't help you with your fingering problems. I saw Daniil Trifonov give a mind-blowing performance of those Variations a few months ago, but I was too far away to accurately gauge specific fingerings, plus I was just enjoying his playing!
Thank your for your post.  And, at this time, I need to correct something misstated in my earlier replies.

I can barely reach a ninth, and not, as stated previously, a tenth.  In these cases, Cortot states that it is okay to roll the chord, but still sticks to the 4 and 5 fingerings.

I, however, have been practicing for short periods of time, the 4,5 and 1,3, and then 4,5 fingering.  If I don't force it, it gets easier and faster every day.

So, a new request, can anyone find the You Tube video that shows a female Ukranian pianist using this exact fingering.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 11:03:52 AM
Quote from: louispodesta on May 23, 2016, 10:47:45 PM
I can barely reach a ninth, and not, as stated previously, a tenth.

Well, then don't slag me off for giving advice based off wrongful information.
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Offline louispodesta

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 11:13:35 PM
Quote from: perfect_pitch on May 24, 2016, 11:03:52 AM
Well, then don't slag me off for giving advice based off wrongful information.
Once again, I ask for information on point.  And, once again, you troll.

So, as I am asking for information regarding the particular fingering I use, I list the following link:

I am pretty sure it is my fingering.

Please, please, is there anyone who can help me out on this?  And, I will only continue this discussion by private link.

Thanks.
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Offline isaacmalitz

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 04:30:01 AM
My own point of view is as follows (for whatever it is worth):

This particular variation is partly an exercise in "getting the sonic result you want, by any means you wish, even a little cheating is allowed".

Factors that you have to work with:
  - The length of each trill
  - The number of reps and the declamation of each trill
       (e.g. a tiny pause after the first note of each trill - this seems good sonically, and it may
        make the execution a little easier)
  - Perhaps an occasional omission of the lowest note in the right hand
  - the fingering
  - your "ears", your sonic judgment !

Regarding fingering: I think you have collected about as much info as there is out there. It seems obvious to me that given the difficulties of the passagework, different pianists will use different fingerings. No universal magic solutions for this variation.

It appears to me that Yuja is using different solutions in different places in this variation.


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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 11:36:35 AM
Quote from: louispodesta on May 24, 2016, 11:13:35 PM
Once again, I ask for information on point.  And, once again, you troll.

No... I was expressing that you can't degrade someone for trying to help when they don't have the correct information... That was your fault. Don't denigrate me for your stupidity for posting wrongful information in the first place.

You want to see who the troll is - hold your phone in front of your face and take a selfie... Arsehole.
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Offline louispodesta

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Re: Brahms Paganini Variations (Var. IV), Fingerings Suggestion
Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 10:46:25 PM
Quote from: isaacmalitz on May 25, 2016, 04:30:01 AM
My own point of view is as follows (for whatever it is worth):

This particular variation is partly an exercise in "getting the sonic result you want, by any means you wish, even a little cheating is allowed".

Factors that you have to work with:
  - The length of each trill
  - The number of reps and the declamation of each trill
       (e.g. a tiny pause after the first note of each trill - this seems good sonically, and it may
        make the execution a little easier)
  - Perhaps an occasional omission of the lowest note in the right hand
  - the fingering
  - your "ears", your sonic judgment !

Regarding fingering: I think you have collected about as much info as there is out there. It seems obvious to me that given the difficulties of the passagework, different pianists will use different fingerings. No universal magic solutions for this variation.

It appears to me that Yuja is using different solutions in different places in this variation.



How about that!  My faith in this forum is restored.

Thank you so much for your detailed thoughtful comments.  So many times, I have been told that at a particular point in a piece:  "take some time."

With my low-level Parkinson's Disease, once my kinetic energy gets going, this is very big deal for me to accomplish.  However, you have inspired me to try it out once again.

With my originally posted thesis on original performance practice,
, it connotes, as follows (in my opinion), three different types of what Dr. Neal Peres Da Costa (author of "Off The Record") refers to as "Tempo Modification:"

1)  Rubato, which is a Sine/Cosine type wave, with no breaks.

2)  Ritardando, which is rhythmically to slow down and then speed up, or your suggested third option, which is:

3)  Take a brief pause in order to re-order things (basically the position of your body/hands), and then immediately proceed.

Thank you so much.
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