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Topic: runs with 5th finger  (Read 3113 times)

Offline mjames

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runs with 5th finger
on: May 20, 2016, 08:10:56 PM
This is actually the second time I've encountered this. I've checked several editions for chpin's op. 29 and they all suggest the same thing

Specifically talking about the descending run near the end of the middle section.

5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 5

First time I encountered it was in Chopin's op. 42, I forget where. I don't have any problems with it, I actually got used to it when I played the waltz but I just want to know the particular advantage for this fingering over the standard ones (4th, 3rd, 2nd over 1st)...
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Offline briansaddleback

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 10:54:39 PM
It is hard to explain, basically it is a case by case matter, It depends on the key signature this scalar run is in and how he wants you to articulate it and where the accents land (according to the time signature where the notes land in a measure) and so frth.
if you post the specific measures we can help you.


Just looked at it, from what  I can tell that should be the most intuitive way to go about it. That is how I would have done it even if there were no suggested fingering.
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Offline mjames

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #2 on: May 20, 2016, 11:28:07 PM
When i first encountered it in the op. 42 waltz like more than a year ago i was like... "yeah what" but I went ahead and used the fingering because I trust Joseffy way too much XD

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Offline indianajo

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 02:27:11 PM
Chopin died age 39.
Good thing because he likely would not have been able to do 5-1 crossovers age 66.
I might be able to do this with 4-1 crossover or 3-1, but 5-1 is out without yawing the wrist.  Also a problem at this age, and nothing fast about that movement at this age. 
I can still play pretty fast, but not that kind of movement. 
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Offline adodd81802

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #4 on: May 27, 2016, 09:30:55 PM
.
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Offline quantum

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #5 on: May 27, 2016, 11:13:41 PM
The 5-1 crossover likely has a lot to do with the thumb over technique.  In the Op. 20 Scherzo, it is a very logical choice of fingering that lends itself well to velocity and at the same time fingering security.  

Also consider period fingering from baroque and earlier, where the thumb dangled over the edge of the keys and performers used combinations of 2-3-4-5.  When one ran out of fingers one did not cross, rather one lifted the hand, re-positioned, then continued the passage where one left off.  This also has the tendency to phrase well with groups of 4 notes. A good argument that modern finger crossing is not a prerequisite for velocity.

Quote from: adodd81802 on May 27, 2016, 09:30:55 PM
That would suggest to me on some level that Chopin was very aware of the capabilities of each finger and their weakness and paid particular attention when composing to achieve the exact desired sound through accurate fingering.

Indeed.  All those 4-5 fingering suggestions in the Op 9/2 Nocturne have a lot to do about shaping tone.  
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #6 on: May 28, 2016, 07:04:29 AM
5 cross over thumb? That's being crazy just move your hand and use pedal.
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Offline quantum

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #7 on: May 28, 2016, 09:01:50 PM
Pedal may not be a necessity.  Absolute legato isn't always necessary for the ear to perceive the connection between points in a line.  If the phrasing is well timed with a 5-1 cross, a small break might even be beneficial. 
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Offline kawai_cs

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Re: runs with 5th finger
Reply #8 on: June 01, 2016, 01:31:41 AM
In contrast to teachings of other contemporary pedagogues Chopin acknowledged that each finger is different and recognized its distinctiveness as beneficial. He used to say that each finger would produce different tone. So as mentioned already above that kind of fingering is suggested to produce desired sound and accent distribution in a run.  
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