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Topic: Trying to retrain hands...  (Read 1678 times)

Offline redheadrebby

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Trying to retrain hands...
on: May 21, 2016, 04:46:40 PM
Hi,

I'll give some background/context first:
I've been playing piano for about 10 years now. The first teacher I had (2 years) really focussed on getting me to learn to read music, and we did no technique. With my second teacher (stayed with her for about 6.5 years), the main focus was on me enjoying the music, expanding my repertoire, and passing exams; I passed  grade 8 with her 2 years ago. Through all that time, my technique was neglected, and I played however I comfortably could.
However, when I moved to my current teacher, she said that technique is vital, and I would never play well without a good grounding. Around a year ago, I suffered from rsi in my left wrist, probably due to the poor technique and excessive tension.
Since then, I have really been trying to improve my technique and focus on relaxing, but this has proved difficult, as I'm trying to overwrite a lot of muscle memory.

I was hoping some people here would have some advice about how to make this process easier and how to stop tensing all down the arm?

Thanks :)

Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #1 on: May 21, 2016, 07:08:48 PM
Read the whole thing.  Focusing on this part:
However, when I moved to my current teacher, she said that technique is vital, and I would never play well without a good grounding. Around a year ago, I suffered from rsi in my left wrist, probably due to the poor technique and excessive tension.
Since then, I have really been trying to improve my technique and focus on relaxing, but this has proved difficult, as I'm trying to overwrite a lot of muscle memory.
Ok, so your current teacher said technique is vital, and your past history is clear.  So if she says technique is vital etc., and says what kind of technique you have and don't have, has she done anything to fix the problem and address the situation?  Or is she just point out your technique, leaving you to try to fix it?  When you got the rsi, how did she react - what did she do?

Like, this is something your teacher should be addressing.  It would involve how she asks you to practice, what types of things you are asked to practice, the feedback and guidance you get, and also choice of repertoire and material.  If you are just told that technique is important, but left to your own devices that is worse than not good.

I'm writing this as a student who has been working through this kind of thing.

Online brogers70

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #2 on: May 21, 2016, 07:40:25 PM
I think our situations are similar. About three years ago I was playing Grade 8 stuff, but doing so with a lot of tension and a poor sound. My new teacher was willing to try to rebuild my technique from the ground up. What I found was that it's important to give your brain the experience of playing with good technique; but it's even more important to deprive your brain of the experience of playing with bad technique. That meant, for me at least, that I went from practicing 3-4 hours a day to practicing 20 minutes a day, at least for the first few months. I started with very, very simple exercises, arm drops to a single note, arm drops to a two note slur, very slow and relaxed scales, eventually a pitifully simple Haydn slow movement. The most helpful thing I found was patience, and realizing that it was not only OK, but necessary, at the beginning of the process to cut way back on practice times. Now I'm back to the 3-4 hours a day, but at the beginning I could not have stayed clear of bad habits for that long.

Offline redheadrebby

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 08:04:07 AM
Ok, so your current teacher said technique is vital, and your past history is clear.  So if she says technique is vital etc., and says what kind of technique you have and don't have, has she done anything to fix the problem and address the situation?  Or is she just point out your technique, leaving you to try to fix it?  When you got the rsi, how did she react - what did she do?

During lessons, she points out what I'm doing incorrectly, and we do some work to correct it. This is mostly done through scales, arpeggios and Czerny. My problem then arises when I'm practising at home, as I struggle to remember all the corrections and apply them all. My other problem (which is more something I just need to deal with) is that I find it hard to motivate myself to play through the Czerny, as it's quite dull/repetitive.

With the rsi, on my own I went back to playing much more basic pieces (mostly grade 2 or 3), and my teacher said it was even more important to keep doing the technical work to correct the issues.

Offline indianajo

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 11:24:34 AM
The point to exercises is to focus on the mechanical teaching point to the exclusion of melody, sight reading stress, or entertainment.  Czerny, E.M. Berman, Hanon, all should be studied under the guidance of a teacher.  There is a physical skill to learn with the inner brain behind each exercise.  Without the guidance of a teacher the exercises are a bit pointless.  
I'm interested to read of your teacher's instruction to avoid unguided practice while you are learning the basics.  I was fortunate to have a teacher that taught me the basic movements when I was very young, and hadn't formed many bad habits yet. 

Offline visitor

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 12:42:34 PM
If you struggle ti rememember what is covered in the lesson then i suggest
1. Video record your lessons. Whe you forget, go back and review the video
2. Immediately after your lesson go practice. The session after a lesson is tye most impirtant session where you emphasize whar was covered while it is still fresh.

Offline drkz4ck

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 04:58:17 PM
If you find it hard to remember your teacher's instructions, try taking a notebook to class. This way you won't forget their instructions anymore.

My teacher advised me to take notes everytime I study. This way I can point out my difficulties more objectively, and that makes it easier to find solutions (mostly with my teacher's aid).
It has helped a lot so far  :)

Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 09:56:14 PM
During lessons, she points out what I'm doing incorrectly, and we do some work to correct it. This is mostly done through scales, arpeggios and Czerny.
This in itself is worth exploring more deeply here to get to the bottom of it.  For example, "incorrect technique" can be described in general ways such as - uneven playing of individual notes rhythm-wise or one louder than the other without control, tense hands hammering down chords, lack or articulation, etc. etc.  A teacher might "solve" a problem by saying for example: "well, you don't have "finger independence" so you should do these Hanon exercises, and Czerny, and scales, and by "doing" these exercises that problem will get fixed.  Now in this Czerny exercise, remember to make this louder than that, remember to do so and so in this measure ..." or something like that.  The fact that you have a lot of corrections to remember might mean that it's going along this kind of line.

Different teachers will approach things in different ways.  I can only write about things I've come across, which is mostly for myself as a student.  A teacher might isolate a particular thing (or maybe together with you, or you isolate it), and decide to work on that thing - some things that are at the root of a problem and its solution.  It might be a stiff wrist, and why is it being kept stiff, and what kinds of things do you need to do to turn this around - and then a way of practising that, and things to practice on.   You might get only a few few instructions, and smaller repertoire to work with.

I returned to violin this year after being away almost a decade, and I had major problems when I left.  One of them was a kind of lack of dexterity: once I put my fingers down I couldn't lift them off anymore and I had had to give up one piece because I simply could not play a passage.  Well I learned that you don't have to push down very hard on the strings, and if you do so it locks up the hand (piano has the same principle).  So I practised one simple thing - pushing the strings lightly just enough to make a good sound - that is the only thing I focused on.  Some time later I came across that "impossible" piece with that "impossible passage" and it was ridiculously easy to play.  The problems had had a particular cause, and by addressing the cause, it stopped existing.

As an example: On piano when I was self-taught I followed bad instructions from an old book for playing scales.  I stopped back then when my hands went numb and started to hurt.  Later if I tried to play scales, everything I had trained myself to do would kick in.  So we have gone at this in stages.  I had learned to "snap the thumb under", and had motionless hands and arms with just the fingers doing their thing.  The thumb muscles would tense up getting ready as soon as I had played the 3rd or 4th finger.  So I played 3 notes, stopped, brought the hand over to its next position while keeping the thumb relaxed - and gradually transitioned.  It was one new habit at a time.

Another thing which takes a lot of patience and trust is working on what can be changed right now, while accepting that other things might continue to suck for a while.  And just keep chiseling away here and there.  What you do with your hands may affect your shoulders positively; what you do with your shoulders may have an effect on your hands.  How you balance your feet may affect what your back and arms feel.  So you keep experimenting, and any time something feels better and seems more effective, you have gained ground.

Quote
My problem then arises when I'm practising at home, as I struggle to remember all the corrections and apply them all.
There may be too many instructions and too many corrections.  (Which is why I gave the violin example where I focused only on "light touch" for a while.
Quote
My other problem (which is more something I just need to deal with) is that I find it hard to motivate myself to play through the Czerny, as it's quite dull/repetitive.
This suggests that you have not been taught how to practice, or don't know how to practice.  If you are "playing through" anything - especially in view of fixing technique - then you're not doing the right thing.  When you have Czerny as a means to help you, there should be a specific thing for you to focus on, and that thing can become fascinating in its own right.  I do not agree with the mentality where particular etudes are supposed to magically fix things by dint of doing them (and that mentality does exist).  I don't know if you are actually being guided.
Quote
With the rsi, on my own I went back to playing much more basic pieces (mostly grade 2 or 3), and my teacher said it was even more important to keep doing the technical work to correct the issues.
Do you mean that in addition to you playing basic pieces your teacher wanted you to do the other things (i.e. Czerny, scales etc. = technical work?).  The basic pieces themselves can become the vehicle for technical work.  Because the material is easy, you can put your energy toward the actual physical motions and sensations.  The goal is (I think) motions which create greater ease, sensations that feel good, and sound which sounds good - as three points of focus.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 09:56:54 PM
Btw, there are some really good ideas in this thread.  :)

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #9 on: May 26, 2016, 11:11:27 PM
Btw, there are some really good ideas in this thread.  :)
Hey, friend?  Specific to your last statement, everything that has been posted here to date is the same traditional junk (in regards technique) that has been handed to piano students for well over the last 100 years.

Karl Czerny never played or taught on a keyboard instrument that had cast iron re-enforcements.  They were pianofortes (very well built) that had a solid wood sound boards, and that was it.  That means they have feather-light actions.

Respectively, their keyboard actions, (many of which are still in existence) have a tactile response just above that of a harpsichord.

Therefore, when it comes to any and all exercises written by Karl Czerny (who as a pedagogue is cited extensively in "Off The Record" by Neal Peres Da Costa)) do not apply to a modern piano.

Key weight is key weight, and keyboard action is keyboard action (specific to a particular instrument).

So, as stated accurately by "Keypeg," the answer to your question is more than your teacher's cryptic comments.  As Keypeg knows, what I found out the hard way is that most great new hot teachers fall into the following categories:

1)  They have naturally big hands and an associated technique.  This means that they can play the daylights out of certain pieces, but when it comes to the comprehensive repertoire they fall on their faces because they literally do not know how they do what they do!

2)  That is why your teacher hands you this half-arse BS about referencing scales, arpeggios, et al.

3)  Dorothy Taubman was a real technique master, and with reservation, so is her student Edna Golandsky.

4)  Also, my coach Dr. Thomas Mark is someone you might want to also explore, who combines Taubman/Golandsky technique (along with that of the Alexander Technique) at his website (www.pianomap.com).  This is an off-shoot of his book "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About the Body," which every college piano department Chair has in their personal library.

5)  If the OP desires any further guidance, I may be contacted by PM.


Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #10 on: May 27, 2016, 01:12:17 AM
(In response to my post: "Btw, there are some really good ideas in this thread.")
Hey, friend?  Specific to your last statement, everything that has been posted here to date is the same traditional junk (in regards technique) that has been handed to piano students for well over the last 100 years.

Karl Czerny never played or taught on a keyboard instrument that had cast iron re-enforcements....
Those are not the kinds of things I was referring to as "good ideas".  If we start here, you may find that we are in agreement on more than one thing.  And it has nothing to do with traditional junk.
Here's one:
Quote from: brogers70
My new teacher was willing to try to rebuild my technique from the ground up. What I found was that it's important to give your brain the experience of playing with good technique; but it's even more important to deprive your brain of the experience of playing with bad technique.  ...
This is also what I have done / am doing.  You later refer to Thomas Mark. His ideas were integral to a great many of those things.  
This is another idea I was thinking of:
Quote from: indianajo
There is a physical skill to learn with the inner brain behind each exercise.
This idea runs contrary to the "traditional junk" that simply doing Czerny, Hanon, etc. etc. will magically make your playing become wonderful.
Another member wrote this:
Quote from: visitor
2. Immediately after your lesson go practice. The session after a lesson is tye most important session where you emphasize what was covered while it is still fresh.
I have reservations abuot this one.  If the teaching itself was good, and something that should be followed, then this advice is spot on.  If the teaching was poor and potentially harmful, then obviously it is not.

continuing with your response:
Quote
 They were pianofortes (very well built) that had a solid wood sound boards, and that was it.  That means they have feather-light actions.

Respectively, their keyboard actions, (many of which are still in existence) have a tactile response just above that of a harpsichord.

Therefore, when it comes to any and all exercises written by Karl Czerny (who as a pedagogue is cited extensively in "Off The Record" by Neal Peres Da Costa)) do not apply to a modern piano.

Key weight is key weight, and keyboard action is keyboard action (specific to a particular instrument).
anything I referred to as "good ideas" did not have to do with Czerny, or exercises of that nature, or scales, or arpeggios.  I agree with what you wrote above.

I also wrote another post which was not the one-liner that you quoted.  I wrote that one-liner out of respect to other posters, because some of the ideas in their posts were good.  To whit:
- rebuilding technique
- giving it time, and how to use that time
- concentrating on the physical skill (with proper guidance) instead of just having the exercise or etude etc. be the magical thing to make it happen

I am rather sure that you would agree with each of these three points. :)

Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #11 on: May 27, 2016, 01:14:20 AM
The reference to T. Mark is still another good idea in this thread. :)

Offline kuska

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #12 on: May 27, 2016, 06:30:58 AM
Karl Czerny never played or taught on a keyboard instrument that had cast iron re-enforcements.  They were pianofortes (very well built) that had a solid wood sound boards, and that was it.  That means they have feather-light actions.

Not sure if I understood you correctly but are you suggesting that one needs more strength in order to play modern pianos? I'm not sure how exactly a very old pianoforte compares to a newer one but I've got at home an upright piano for long years now (and it was bought used already) and it's always been very hard to hit. So my fingers became pretty strong, which can be a plus but a hell as well. When I was playing a pianoforte at music school, yes, it was considerably lighter. And as I've just bought Yamaha DGX 650, which is more like a digital piano than a keyboard in itself, its keyboard is also lighter than my upright piano. So...

Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #13 on: May 27, 2016, 09:27:20 AM
(quoting LP) Karl Czerny never played or taught on a keyboard instrument that had cast iron re-enforcements.  They were pianofortes (very well built) that had a solid wood sound boards, and that was it.  That means they have feather-light actions.

Not sure if I understood you correctly but are you suggesting that one needs more strength in order to play modern pianos? I'm not sure how exactly a very old pianoforte compares to a newer one but I've got at home an upright piano for long years now (and it was bought used already) and it's always been very hard to hit. .....
I've heard arguments in this direction before, so maybe I can take a first stab at it..
Czerny lived from 1791 – 1857, so if you are trying to determine whether old pianos had heavy actions based on your upright, then your upright would have to have been built in the late 1700's or early 1800's.  And then I'm not so sure that Czerny played an upright.  
I think the idea is that pianos were constructed differently, the music was different, and therefore etudes and such written at that time would be designed for the instrument and music of the time, and be less suited for modern instruments and how music has evolved since that time.

Offline pianoplayer002

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #14 on: May 27, 2016, 11:19:39 PM
Quote
Karl Czerny never played or taught on a keyboard instrument that had cast iron re-enforcements.  They were pianofortes (very well built) that had a solid wood sound boards, and that was it.  That means they have feather-light actions.

Respectively, their keyboard actions, (many of which are still in existence) have a tactile response just above that of a harpsichord.

Therefore, when it comes to any and all exercises written by Karl Czerny (who as a pedagogue is cited extensively in "Off The Record" by Neal Peres Da Costa)) do not apply to a modern piano.

Key weight is key weight, and keyboard action is keyboard action (specific to a particular instrument).

I'm sorry, but if you can't play Czerny's exercises on a modern grand, it is not a fault of the exercises, but rather something lacking in your own technique.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #15 on: May 28, 2016, 12:25:45 AM
I'm sorry, but if you can't play Czerny's exercises on a modern grand, it is not a fault of the exercises, but rather something lacking in your own technique.
I don't think he said anything about not being able to play them, but rather about their suitability.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #16 on: May 28, 2016, 12:29:55 AM
I'm sorry, but if you can't play Czerny's exercises on a modern grand, it is not a fault of the exercises, but rather something lacking in your own technique.
I don't think he said anything about not being able to play them, but rather about their suitability.

Offline redheadrebby

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #17 on: May 29, 2016, 09:34:57 AM
2. Immediately after your lesson go practice.

If you find it hard to remember your teacher's instructions, try taking a notebook to class. This way you won't forget their instructions anymore.
Thanks for these suggestions; I'm definitely going to try them. For some reason, it never occurred to me to practise immediately after a lesson. And the note-taking is a really good idea, I used to do it back with my first teacher and it was useful.

This in itself is worth exploring more deeply here to get to the bottom of it.  For example, "incorrect technique" can be described in general ways such as - uneven playing of individual notes rhythm-wise or one louder than the other without control, tense hands hammering down chords, lack or articulation, etc. etc.  A teacher might "solve" a problem by saying for example: "well, you don't have "finger independence" so you should do these Hanon exercises, and Czerny, and scales, and by "doing" these exercises that problem will get fixed.  Now in this Czerny exercise, remember to make this louder than that, remember to do so and so in this measure ..." or something like that.  The fact that you have a lot of corrections to remember might mean that it's going along this kind of line.
There may be too many instructions and too many corrections. 
Too many corrections in one go is probably the main problem I'm having. The trouble with my technique though, is that there are 'general' issues (eg. I have tension all down my arm and through my wrist; my thumb and  little finger are in completely the wrong position) and there are more specific issues (eg. I didn't know there were different ways to play staccato, and I have never learned to play legato properly before). So my teacher picks up on each thing I do incorrectly over the course of the 2 hours, and we work on each of those things; I can often do the correction when it is only that one, but when I try to do them all together, it's just too much.

This suggests that you have not been taught how to practice, or don't know how to practice.  If you are "playing through" anything - especially in view of fixing technique - then you're not doing the right thing.
You are absolutely right that I don't know how to practise. I have no idea how to approach things in a beneficial way (hence my previous thread about not knowing how to approach learning pieces). Any advice on this front would really be appreciated.

Do you mean that in addition to you playing basic pieces your teacher wanted you to do the other things (i.e. Czerny, scales etc. = technical work?).  The basic pieces themselves can become the vehicle for technical work.  Because the material is easy, you can put your energy toward the actual physical motions and sensations.  The goal is (I think) motions which create greater ease, sensations that feel good, and sound which sounds good - as three points of focus.
Yes, my teacher was giving me other work at that time. I was working on the very basic pieces on my own at home, and focussing on which actions caused pain and which didn't, in order to pinpoint what I was doing wrong. Wih my teacher, we are doing some easier pieces (Bach inventions, Grieg lyric pieces) to work on technique. I sometimes find it difficult though to transfer what I've learned on one piece, to another piece. Does anyone have advice on this front?

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Trying to retrain hands...
Reply #18 on: May 30, 2016, 10:49:32 PM
It is heartwarming that the OP is grateful for all of thought that has gone into these responses.  However, in that I have not stated the obvious (because then the trolls abound!), here is a summary of my particular thesis on this subject:

1)  There are no muscles in the fingers of the hominid/human hand.  Its physiology consists of bone, cartilage, tendons, and ligaments.

2)  The next time any of you visit your Primary Physician (or accompany your mother or father) please ask them about the "lower physiology" of the human hand.

3)  Therefore, the kinetic strength required to depress a particular key is different from keyboard to keyboard (modern or not!).

4)  Any so-called EXERCISES have nothing to do with increasing any pianists ability at the piano.

Finally, I deal with this every day because I am polishing up the Schumann A Minor Concerto, as well as the Mozart A Major K488.  In doing so, I focus on the Alexander/'Taubman/Golandsky, Rachmaninoff/Peak techniques that I have been taught.

For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

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