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/ 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave (Read 1472 times)

Offline pianoplayerstar

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Friends:

is the word Bar and Measure the same thing?

Where you have natural note within same bar/measure, will it apply to 1 octave higher that is within the same bar/measure?

Where you have a natural in the Bass Clef, does it apply to the Treble Clef within the same measure/bar?

(actually that was 3 questions)

Offline kawai_cs

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #1 on: May 27, 2016, 02:06:59 AM »

is the word Bar and Measure the same thing?


Bar- UK English
measure=US English


Where you have natural note within same bar/measure, will it apply to 1 octave higher that is within the same bar/measure?


No. It is not valid for other octaves.

Where you have a natural in the Bass Clef, does it apply to the Treble Clef within the same measure/bar?


I would say no, because e.g. C in bass clef is A in treble clef so it wouldn't make much sense.
Chopin, 10-8 | Chopin, 25-12 | Haydn, HOB XVI:20

Offline keypeg

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #2 on: May 27, 2016, 05:20:23 PM »
I would say no, because e.g. C in bass clef is A in treble clef so it wouldn't make much sense.
This part is potentially confusing.  What you are saying is that the note in the 2nd space in the bass clef is C, while the note in the 2nd space in the treble clef is A.  That is not how we read music.  The names of the notes are determined by the clef sign.  There are C's in the bass clef, and C's in the treble clef, and one possibility would have been that an accidental on any of those C's would affect all C's regardless of where they occur.  But generally speaking that is not the case (so your answer of "no" is correct).  But I think in some rare older music it does happen - not sure.

Offline quantum

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #3 on: May 27, 2016, 08:09:12 PM »
Friends:
Where you have a natural in the Bass Clef, does it apply to the Treble Clef within the same measure/bar?

Generally no, for the same reasons as question #2.  Accidentals only apply to specific pitches within a measure, not pitch classes. 

There may be exceptions however, and it is usually apparent to the ear.  Say for example middle C was written in the lower staff bass clef, followed by upper staff treble clef. Some editions may not reprint the accidental while others may give a courtesy accidental. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline pianoplayerstar

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #4 on: May 28, 2016, 06:47:50 PM »
so can you assume if there is an accidental on the bass, it's presumed on the treble? and vice versa?

Offline michael_c

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #5 on: May 28, 2016, 07:03:01 PM »
so can you assume if there is an accidental on the bass, it's presumed on the treble? and vice versa?
No, it is not presumed. It only applies on the staff where it appears, and only at that exact height, not in another octave.

Offline pianoplayerstar

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #6 on: May 28, 2016, 08:23:09 PM »
so only within THAT octave?

and I should not assume just becuase it's an accidental on the bass, it's also on the treble, UNLESS it actually notes it?

Offline pjjslp

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #7 on: May 28, 2016, 08:40:12 PM »
so only within THAT octave?

and I should not assume just becuase it's an accidental on the bass, it's also on the treble, UNLESS it actually notes it?

Correct.

Offline quantum

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #8 on: May 28, 2016, 09:16:35 PM »
so only within THAT octave?

and I should not assume just becuase it's an accidental on the bass, it's also on the treble, UNLESS it actually notes it?

That's right.  The accidental only applies to a specific pitch in it's specified octave.  The accidental does not apply to pitch classes (i.e. all pitches on the piano sharing the same letter name). 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline brogers70

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #9 on: May 29, 2016, 07:05:52 PM »
Everybody agrees that the accidental only applies for the duration of the bar and for the octave in which it appears. What I'm not totally sure of is the following...You can write the same pitch in the same octave in either the treble or bass clef, at least for pitches fairly close to middle C. I don't know whether an accidental on a B below middle C on the bass clef applies to a subsequent B below middle C written below the treble clef with a ledger line. I would guess that it does, but I've never seen it come up. Also don't know whether if the two staves temporarily use the same clef, both treble or both bass, whether accidentals in one staff apply to the same pitch on the other staff.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: / 2 Questions: natural in both treble and Bass? / 1 octave
«Reply #10 on: June 02, 2016, 05:20:30 PM »
b70,
I don't know the rule in either of those cases, but I would definitely use a courtesy accidental to make it clear if I were writing that.

Tim