New Year Resolution : Purchase a Steinway Grand (Help Needed)

[drjonn]

I thought I had purchased a 1889 Restored Steinway B,  until I found out that the advertised "fully restoration job" was not up to par. The deal could still work out, but chances are very slim at this point.

I need to start another search again. After having gone through the last experience, I am very "skeptical" now about restored Steinways.  I will be asking for paperwork (as an evendence of proper restoration along with a Tech's inspecpection). So far, majority of what I hear from sellers are typical personal claims and very little documentation (I hate that I am skeptical, but the last experience was time consuming and expensive).

If you know of a good Steinway at a reasonable price, let me know please. Also, if you know, where I should search besides PianoMart and Ebay, let me know as well.

I would prefer an original (1880 - 1950) or a "well" restored Steinway Grand of 6' or bigger. If it is an original, it has to be in a "restorable" condition. If restored, the seller must have proper documentation/paperwork with it (especially if the restoration cost is added to the selling price).

Thanks!

jonn

jkim@GaNcorp.com

[jr11]

I hope you're not considering an on-line purchase for such a thing?! The only way to shop for a piano is in person, preferably with a tech in tow. If you find something hopeful on-line, it is well worth your time, money and effort to get on a plane and take a look for yourself. Leave the sight-unseen buys to the dealers, who know they'll win some & lose some, no matter how well they know their sources.

[drjonn]

Agree with you, JR11. Right now, I am trying to broaden the search first, and then reduce the number of candidates to a manageable size. Then go with a tech (or a local tech) for personal inspection.

There seems to be a lot of Steinways in NY. If I get to NY, would like to do a Steinway tour as well.

[sirpazhan]

Best advise I can give you is to purchase from an 'Authorized' Steinway Dealer,, forget about all these little mom-&-pop shops who claim their Steinway's are built with genuine Steinway parts but really with after-market Asian parts -- or eBay etc.. etc,,, forget it.... pay a little extra and get it from an Authorized Dealer with the comfort that you're getting a 100% pure Steinway with all the papers and warranty.   There are plenty of Authorized Dealers in the U.S (around 70 or so) who are qualified by Steinway.  I myself spent over 2 years going back and fourth with little mom-&-pop shops who restore Steinway's ,,, I was never satisfied,, there was always something wrong,, so I got fed up,, and just went straight to Fields Piano in S.California, and now,, Im on a waiting list for an Model 'A' (1910-1940).

They even guaranteed me, that their restored pianos look and feel brand new (since most parts are completely replaced)

Other thing you should remember is that used Model 'B' is around 30-37 grand (depends on age and a few other factors) from an Authorized Dealer,, so if you find one from a private seller,, or some dealer that is charging you 30 grand,, just pay the extra 5 grand and don't hassle yourself:

https://steinway.com/dealer/

-as

note: two parts of a Steinway that should not be tampered with is the soundboard and pin-block,, you can even ask a Steinway tech yourself.. this is because the whole piano is literally built around these two parts and anytime there is a restoration of these two,, the whole piano needs to be disassembled.. now you don't want that, do you?

[drjonn]

AS,

Thanks for the useful info. I agree that spending a few more grand for a peace of mind is money well spent. I also plan on getting more educated as well (just got Larry Fine's Piano Book and plan on going to Steinway factory).

Good luck on your search as well.

Thanks,

jonn

[xvimbi]

Just out of curiosity: why do you have your heart set on a Steinway?

[drjonn]

xvimbi,
My intial search started with Yamaha grand. Then I messed with a couple of Steinways.
After trying out Yamaha, Boston, and others, I seem to like the sound and feel of Steinway the most. (I did do a blind test with a series of Boston, Essex, Yamaha, and Steinway .)

In addition to my personal taste, also there is a comfort factor: Steinway is well known, has been around for more than a century, a lot of "real" musicians use them (I am not a musician, but a wanna-be.) I have heard a lot about Estonia recently, but I don't have the warm and fuzzy about it yet. Don't have money for Bosendorfer either.

I have concluded for the kind of money I would like to spend, the best choice is the older Steinway.

Do you have other suggestions?
jonn

[xvimbi]

I have concluded for the kind of money I would like to spend, the best choice is the older Steinway.

Do you have other suggestions?

I was just wonderng if there were any specific reasons. You are right, Steinway is a well-known brand, and there are a lot of good Steinways out there. The problem is that there are also a lot of "bad" ones out there. The ratio today is about 1 good one out of 10. Quality control was a lot better in the olden days, so you may have a lot more luck finding an old, good Steinway. However, good and well-maintained Steinways usually appreciate. I am not sure if one can reverse the argument and say that any Steinway that depreciates is not good. In any case, however, Steinways tend to be over-priced, because of their market recognition.

It's also really not fair to pit Boston and Essex against Steinways. Since you have Larry Fine's book, check out the other high-quality brands (Mason & Hamlin, Bluethner, Steingraeber, Seiler, etc.). It could well be that you will find a better value in those. In any case, in the end, you need to settle on what feels and sounds the best to you. Also keep in mind that, after this one, you probably won't be buying a piano any time soon. So, you may just as well get the one you really want.

Good luck!

[drjonn]

Well put, xvimbi.

You have opened another can of worms that I will have dig through (not a pretty visual). However, you have made great points about Steinway and other "value" pianos. I will move with deliberate enthusiasm to find the "once in a life time" piano.

Thanks for your input. Let me know if you run across one I should consider in the meanwhile.

[Hmoll]

xvimbi is right.

From what you posted you haven't played enough of what's out there - Grotrian, Mason Hamlin, Estonia, Petrof, Bechstein, Scholtz-Pollmann, Bluthner, etc., etc.

If you come to NY, you should visit AC Pianocraft, Klavierhaus, Faust Harrison, Beethoven Pianos, and Steinway Hall. Also, I think Piano-Piano has some rebuilt instruments.

[Rich D.]

Drjonn,
I don't know where you are located but there are a number of very reputable rebuilders of quality instruments throughout the country.  Certainly in NYC, AC Pianocraft, Faust Harrison and Beethovens are three that come to mind (in addition to Steinway hall of course).  In the Washington DC area Pianocraft does exceptional rebuilds.  In southern California I've also heard good things about Pianosource.  I certainly would not restrict yourself to only Steinway authorized dealers.  I would also recommend as others have that you check out other 1st tier instruments such as Mason & Hamlin, Grotrian, and Steingraeber to name a few.  Good luck.

[Axtremus]

note: two parts of a Steinway that should not be tampered with is the soundboard and pin-block,, you can even ask a Steinway tech yourself.. this is because the whole piano is literally built around these two parts and anytime there is a restoration of these two,, the whole piano needs to be disassembled.. now you don't want that, do you?

Sorry... have to take issue with that. Soundboards and pinblocks can get damaged over time for various reasons, and there are good, legitimate reasons to replace soundboards and pin blocks.

I have also played many great rebuilt Steinways from non-Steinway dealers (a few of them mentioned in Hmoll's post, they do good work and they charge accordingly, and yes, they replace soundboards and pinblocks in many cases and the pianos turned out very good). So I don't think slamming all "mom-and-pop" rebuilding shops in one fell swoop is fair. But I do feel sorry that you've had such bad experiences with some mom-and-pop rebuilders in the past and I do not dispute that there are many incompetent rebuilders/restorers out there.

drjonn --

It's not that the other pianos are "value" pianos, Steingraeber and Bösendorfer and Fazioli may actually command a higher price than Steinway in the US, size for size. As for the other lower-cost options like M&H, Grotrian, Bechstein, Seiler, etc. down the list, I would not call them "value pianos" either... these pianos are not cheap, it's the new Steinways that are expensive.

There is also nothing magical about the pre-1950's Steinways. They might have been well-built at one point, but if you're buying rebuilt/restored pianos, the build quality will be the result of the craftsmen doing to rebuilding/restoration. Very little, if any, of the "pre-1950 original Steinway quality" will survive a rebuild/restoration.

Now, if you're talking high-quality rebuilt Steinway B, you're in the $35k~$40k price range. New Bostons (built by Kawai) and Essexes (built by Young Chang) and tiny Yamahas are 1/2 to 1/3 that price -- not a fair comparison at all. You should be comparing the new Shigerus (Kawai's premium line) and new S-series (S4 and S6, Yamaha's high-end line, and I'd add the Yamaha C7), and new Prambergers (Young Chang's high-end line, but still costing 1/3 to 1/2 as much, Young Chang doesn't make anything more expensive than that), in addition to the names listed by xvimbi and Hmoll.

While "real pianists" play Steinway on stage and in CD recordings, most "real pianists" practice and learn on Baldwins and Yamahas and Kawais and Kimballs. If the purpose is to get a learning/practicing piano, there's nothing that says you can't accomplish that with most other pianos not affiliated with Steinway. (You don't really belief that the gymnasts on cereal boxes eat only that brand of cereal when they grew up, do you?)

If you cannot play very well yourself, get some one who can play to shop with you and help you. At the end of the day, I'd say forget about the name on the piano, forget about who built or rebuilt or restored the piano, forget about whether the soundboard or pinblock has been replaced, forget about which famous pianist play which brand -- if the piano does not sound good, if the piano does not perform well, the rest do not matter. If the piano sounds good, if the piano perform well, then isn't that what you want in a musical instrument in the first place?

[drjonn]

Axtremus,

Good stuff.

Perhaps, my incling towards Steinway also comes from the lack of accessability to other fine pianos (I live in Alabama). Unfortunately, from where I live, the only real access I have is Steinway dealers and Internet. When I travel out of AL, I do plan on visiting cities with a high concentration of great pianos. NY seems like a place to go, since I do get to visit DC a few times a year.

I do have hard time justifying $60 - $80k for new Steinway B's (depending on finish, art case, and what not).  If I can get the sound quality that I like for significanlty less than the new price, I say that is a highly successful acquisition.

(You don't really belief that the gymnasts on cereal boxes eat only that brand of cereal when they grew up, do you?)

No wonder... I have been gaining weight without much improvement on my floor exercises.

Thanks for your insights!

jonn

[sirpazhan]

Sorry... have to take issue with that. Soundboards and pinblocks can get damaged over time for various reasons, and there are good, legitimate reasons to replace soundboards and pin blocks.

I have also played many great rebuilt Steinways from non-Steinway dealers (a few of them mentioned in Hmoll's post, they do good work and they charge accordingly, and yes, they replace soundboards and pinblocks in many cases and the pianos turned out very good). So I don't think slamming all "mom-and-pop" rebuilding shops in one fell swoop is fair. But I do feel sorry that you've had such bad experiences with some mom-and-pop rebuilders in the past and I do not dispute that there are many incompetent rebuilders/restorers out there.

Sorry if I came off 'slamming' small rebuilt shopes etc... what I mean is that the difference in price between small rebuilt dealers and an 'Authorized' dealer is just a few thousand dollars,, for instance:

Steinway 'A' (6'1" Satin 1900-20) were around 22-24 grand from small piano dealers,, who cannot put any of the rebuilt in writing... but for around 5 grand more.. you get the whole pacakge,, no worries.  Honestly,, I dont have the time to go around and round ,, find a piano,, call a Steinway tech ,, make an appoinment ,, yada,, yada over and over again just for a few thousand dollars,, you're already paying 25-30 grand,, whats a few more...

Steinway has a strong name,, its not like Bohemia where you really don't care about papers and such things,, look at my Rolex example,, you'd buy a Breitling from a regular watch dealer,, but you'd be crazy to buy a Rolex from anything but an 'Authorized' dealer.

Now another advantge with an authorized dealers is the re-sale value/backing of your piano.. a Steinway without papers is as good as your word,, its like buying a Rolex watch without the box, serial, papers, etc... I look at a piano as an investment and this is what seals your investment.

As far as the comment on the soundboard and pin blocks,, it goes like this.  The only 2 parts that Steinway will not sell to anyone (including authorized dealers) as a replacement part is the pin-blocks and soundboard, you can call steinway yourself and see.  In other words if you find a rebuilt steinway with a repalced pin-block, its probably some after-market part.  However rebuilt shopes sometimes just re-finish soundboards or pin-blocks instead of rebuilt them (ie: you would not want a cracked soundboard to be sealed).  When your piano was built,, it was not made to be disassembled, so when a rebuilder takes your piano completely apart,, he will never be able to put it back together as good as the way it came out of the factory.  so you really need to research the history of your piano..

-as

[Axtremus]

sirpazhan,

Thanks for clarifying your take on used/rebuilt Steinway. If I understand you correctly, you value a form of authenticity in your Steinway, and you value having some kind of official record kept by Steinway the corporation that can testify to such authenticity (e.g., rebuilt/restored using only Steinway-approved parts and by Steinway-approved entities), and believe in the investment/financial value of such official certification. That's certainly one way to look at it.

As far as rebuilt/restored pianos go, I was going along the lines of "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck" -- "if it sounds like a Steinway and plays like a Steinway, it is a Steinway." I treat Steinway no more than a musical instrument. Certainly if you trace Steinway's pattent filings you'd see that many latter innovations that define the moden Steinway would not be available when they built the 1900-1920 Steinways, and whether Steinway itself will remanufacture 1900-1920 parts to maintain period authenticity, I would have no clue. And different people would have different treshold of what they consider "authentic." Having an official certificate of authenticity issued by the Steinway corporation for a rebuilt/restored piano is certainly one way to go.

We're just looking at the same issue with different perspectives. I'm glad we now understand each other's view point better.

[chickering9]

sirpazhan,

...and whether Steinway itself will remanufacture 1900-1920 parts to maintain period authenticity, I would have no clue. And different people would have different treshold of what they consider "authentic."...

I've followed several discussions in the Piano Technician's Guild forum about the necessity often to replace action parts in older Steinways with parts that *do* differ from the original *because* parts with the original geometry are sometimes *not* available--even from Steinway--because they just don't make them anymore, a point that necessitates some careful decision-making on the part of the technician providing his service to maintain strikeline, strikeweight and touchweight.  And whether the piano was rebuilt by Steinway in their own facilities or by another shop, the result could well be a change in action geometry necessitated by the lack of availability of parts of an *exact* match.  So how "authentic" is the rebuild whether it has been done by Steinway or others, given that?

As far as pinblocks and soundboards go, my understanding is that Steinway does not sell those, but not because they do not need replacing, but rather that the company prefers to reserve as much of that portion of the rebuild business for themselves as possible--since their biggest competition for new sales is sales of rebuilt instruments and the company has only been breaking even on average for years and that rebuild business is important at the margin.

They most certainly are replacing pinblocks and soundboards in pianos they themselves rebuild.  (Some would add that they *have to*, because even among their late builds, their reliance on compression-crowned soundboards has many pianos sitting even while new on sales floors with boards flat or nearly so already.) 

While the pinblock and soundboard are critical components of the piano, they are certainly *not* components that contribute to the structural integrity of the piano in the way of the inner and outer rims and braces.  They really *are* very nearly "bolt-on" components that serve a function and they are most certainly replaceable.  There wouldn't even *be* a market for rebuilt Steinways (authorized network or not) if they were *not* replaceable.   A serviceable rim is a rebuild candidate.  Everything else, including the plate, is replaceable.

[drjonn]

Thanks to all your helpful suggestions, I have actually opened my sight on other quality pianos. I will be looking at Bosendorfers and Bechsteins as well. I also think I can look forever and not ever own one (which defeats the purpose of enjoying the piano) to find the perfect one, so I am trying to give myself a time limit (before the year's out, for sure). I am thinking May might be a good deadline.

I think the best move I made so far is getting The Pianobook by Larry Fine. One must have this book before venturing out for a purchase.

I am talking with a shop in SF area called "Music Szalon" Does anyone have experience with the shop?

Also how do I price a Bosendorfer? Unlike Steinways, it is difficult to guage Bosendorfers as there are not too many of them availble. Are the recent (1990s and up) as good as the older ones?

jonn