I came across a difficult passage that involved a trill with the 3 & 4 finger. I have noticed this in a lot of Mozart sonatas, especially k331 and 332. I just changed the fingering and got on with it. But now i regret it and i need some advice on how to srengthen and speed up 3 and 4 finger trills
good practice for either hand, hold down the thumb, 1st finger and little finger.Then with your 3/4 practice 3-4-3-4-3-4 whilst keeping your other fingers down.
My teacher always says that it is to be avoided to trill with 3rd and 4th fingers unless it is inevitable. Those two fingers' tendons cross in wrist causing limitation of 4th finger's motion. If your trill has to end in a way that you have your 2nd finger free then instead of trilling just with 3rd and 4th you can try changing finger's on the trill using the most dexterous combinations. You can post the specific trill you mean and we can figure out what possible finger combinations might work.
Good idea. You can do this with 1st, 2nd and 5th fingers held down with these 3 keys depressed (be careful) and also with 1st, 2nd and 5th fingers lightly on keys with keys NOT depressed.
This is true, however I would wonder the thoughts of your teacher regarding the Chopin etude no.2 No getting around that and the speed it has to be played, makes me think the only way you really can work at it would be little exercises as suggested above.
I am not so sure that is a good idea.That will lock the hand and forearm and isolate those two trill fingers. But that's not how you do a trill. A trill requires forearm rotation (though it may be small enough to not be obvious.)
I firstly think it is possible to rotate the arm muscles whilst keeping some fingers static. If you have active forearm muscles, you can feel where the movement is coming from regardless of how it looks to othersMy thought between the 3/4 exercise was to strengthen the co-ordination in preparation for the trill. It is also a good practice to help isolate the 2 fingers and get them more independent.
I also disagree with both of your trill suggestions by the way - Personally I find either 1/3 or 2/3 the most comfortable.
I don't believe I suggested a beginner to do this... But suggested the exercises itself was good to help those first hoping to comfortably trill 3/4 as good foundation blocks.I also disagree with both of your trill suggestions by the way - Personally I find either 1/3 or 2/3 the most comfortable. I have no issue with your suggestions on relaxation or even your comments on finger independence, but it does no harm to improve finger independence whilst building good co-ordination in those 2 fingers?
Sure adodd, you can check his view on etude no 2 here: The exercises are certainly a good thing however I wanted to give OP more options. I have played a piece recently where I [thought] I had to trill with 3rd and 4th and it was never reliable (at least not for me). It was only when my teacher gave me an alternative fingering changing fingers on that trill that it has become reliable.
4 and 2 is best
Totaly agree with avoiding 3-4 trill... My teacher said once that it was the only thing that Richter couldnt do on the piano! Having played k. 310 by Mozart quite a few times I realize why you think you definately need 3-4 trill to keep some other notes down because it says so in the score... But dont loose the forest for the tree... there are lots of ways to avoid whrecking your hand and producing the sound the score demands (pedaling, accents, dynamics etc...)
Thank you, and in case you didn't get it the first and second time: DO NOT EVER TRILL WITH 3-4 !!
Let me fix that for you.It is inadvisable to rely on a 3-4 trill when performing, because there are almost always alternatives that are more musical to perform. 3-4 trills are inherently limited because the tendon attachment to those fingers interferes with independence.However, practicing 3-4 trills can be a good idea if properly done. While a trill that relies on finger independence is not going to work, the heart of trill technique is not finger independence anyway, it is forearm rotation. With 3-4 trills you are forced to do it with rotation, and it can be a good way to get the feel of it. [/quote) Compositions written for the modern hammerklavier, as opposed to the solid wood sound board pianofortes of Mozart and Beethoven, have a significant pedagogical epistemology in terms of keyboard technique. And, trill fingering is also a part of that associated logic.2) To say: that suggesting a fingering, or an exercise, in the guise that it directly relates to the same composition for a piano manufactured over 200 years ago, is at best suspect. At most, you are grossly mistaken.
Nice exercise idea from the above considering they're self taught. Another thing is strengthening the co-ordination between those 2 fingers.with your hand either on a table or piano, (i think table co-ordination is good initially but if you're going to be doing it on the piano as an end result, you may as well just start on the piano)good practice for either hand, hold down the thumb, 1st finger and little finger.Then with your 3/4 practice 3-4-3-4-3-4 whilst keeping your other fingers down.Your end focus here is to make it feel relaxed, your hands shouldn't be too tense. inevitably they will at the start, and you'll keep pushing the speed, then you could slow down and see how easier you then find it.Interestingly I can do this much much better in my left hand than my right, but freely, I can trill faster in my right.
That's a good exercise!
Topic: trills with 3 & 4 