Kawai K-6 vs Boston Baby Grand

[ainmpiano]

I have a fairly new Kawai K-6.
My son (he is eight) and I play.  I am a late starter on the piano.  Moderate skill.

I recently got to play a baby grand (a bottom of the line Yamaha model), and I loved its "direct" key action (as opposed to the slightly more sluggish key action of the upright K-6).

So, I was considering a used Boston Baby Grand, which comes highly recommended.  Can't afford a new one at 18K.

Can anyone comment on the switch from a K-6 to a Boston Baby Grand?

Thanks.
Mac

[iansinclair]

I really can't comment on that particular switch.  However, the Bostons are good pianos -- not great, but good, and if this one is in good shape it could be a very satisfactory piano.  That said, the action of a grand will almost always be easier to control in terms of dynamics, and much better in terms of response accuracy and repetition and the like than even the best uprights.  As you and your son progress, you will surely want a grand action at some point, so -- why not now?

[visitor]

boston's are decent pianos. don't believe the steinway hype. they are fine instruments but command a steep premium due to the brand affiliation. it is private label outsourced project, Kawai builds these for steinway. good design, I like their sound, but honestly dollar for dollar, ie a used boston vs a higher grade std Kawai, i would go for the Kawai unless i was getting the boston at a steep discount below the market value for private sale or at a whole sale price.

one needs to understand the Japanese and the whole cultural thing of honor, family, etc.  The Kawai family/ company is not going to build a better piano than then one that carries their family name, they strive to bring honor to it in that tradition (within the same tier, ie a  kawai Rx vs a boston for example. even a non entry level std Kawai vs Boston).

I'd seriously look into the small Kawai Rx, that millenium action is slick and almost worth the price of admission alone (they also tend to hole up very well over time, they are tanks, the 'honda" of pianos pretty much).
ie an RX1 if you need to go smallish
https://www.kawaius.com/main_links/grands_09/rx1.html

[ainmpiano]

Thanks for your comments.

So, the Boston BG (built by Kawai) would not have Steinway technology that would elevate it above a Kawai RX-1?

I have no idea.  You guys are the experts.

Also, what is the cost of an RX-1 new?

I believe that a new Boston BG is 18K.

Mac

[visitor]

hmm the rx line is the top tier of kawai, the only thing you can really get in a better tier is shigeru, which is a worldclass (my dream instrument) top/best you can get.

msrp for a brand new rx1 is 31K but no one pays msrp, you have to look at market conditions, and used is the way to go. If i had the cash to get one right now, i'd get this one from a dealer in GA (if you are in USA)
https://www.pianoworks.com/Baby-Grand-Pianos/Kawai-5'5-RX-1-2007.asp
12Kish before you negotiate anything.

not sure what 'steinway tech' Boston would have that matters.  i know steinway did the scale design, they have a wider soundboard and lower string tension which can produce a nice mellower 'americanish' sound but voicing can fix that vs a true Kawai.

it's up to you, if you can get the boston at a deal, go for it, it's good piano, but don't fall for the Steinway hype, and if an pristne/mint rx blk can be found for same price range, it's something i would seriously consider.

[ainmpiano]

Thanks for the new comment.

I see that the kawai RX is now the kawai GX line.
I bet those go for a mint new.

A kawai tech said that yes, they were building the Boston for steinway, and that the action pieces were different, along with the scaling, from a "Kawai" made my Kawai, but, aside from that, I did not get a sense that there was a massive difference in technology or quality.

Mac

[quantum]

Agree with visitor.  My university used to have Kawais, so I was able to experience the entire range of pianos they manufacture, including the gorgeous EX concert grand.  The Millennium 3 action is exquisite in it's ability to render fine detail, and the only thing that would make it better is sticking an M3 action in a Shigeru.  A well prepped RX series piano would be an excellent choice for a home instrument.  They can also take a serious beating and keep on going like a tank.  I actually do prefer the response of an M3 action over that of S****way.  

In my experience, Bostons tend to be good showroom pianos.  They have a flashy, attention grabbing tone that turns heads.  I've seen this several times at a dealership: a salesperson does a demo of a Boston, and customers drop what they are doing and gather around the Boston.  The bass tone is often impressive, considering the size of instrument.  I've had a chance to examine a few Bostons in finer detail: when you dig deeper and start to look at the gamut of qualities the instrument offers, I have found disappointments.  That's not saying they are bad pianos, no not at all.  But for the price they command and how they are marketed, I would have expected a lot more.  One of the things that stood out for me was the amount of work one had to put in to sing a melodic line - it was far too laborious a task to shape a melody and balance it with accompaniment (well at least on the pianos that were available to play at the time).  

Bostons don't play or react like Steinways, even though there is the name association.  If you want that Steinway tone and action, you need to get a Steinway.

If buying new, I would personally lean towards the Kawai - it is much more piano for your money.  If you can find a used Boston for a decent price, maybe then consider it.   Somehow, I would still lean towards a used Kawai RX-1 or RX-2.  I've seen these used instruments in the range of 12k-15k CAN.  Look around, you should not need to pay MSRP on them.  

[ainmpiano]

I see that the Kawai RX is actually now the Kawai GL line.

Looks like the GL-10, even new, is priced just about three thousand above what I paid for my K-6.

What are folks' thoughts about the GL line?

Thanks.

[quantum]

Unless you are adamant about buying a new piano, don't discount older models just because they are no longer produced.  The GX series more closely fits the role of successor to the RX.  GL series fits in with the GM and GE.  GX series is more performance oriented, GL is centered around manufacturing efficiencies and has less fancy features as the GX.  

Some points of comparison may appear superficial on paper, but make a huge difference in real life playing.  For example, key surfaces.  I find that plasticky key surfaces can be uncomfortable to play depending on the material.  Some materials just don't feel right when factoring in things like human sweat and oil as well as environmental factors like humidity and dust.  If you've ever touched a computer keyboard or ATM interface and thought to yourself, yuck this feels gross, well piano keys can be like that too.  Nothing beats the feel of real ivory, but of course we know better these days.  Synthetic materials that simulate ivory and mitigate certain tactile interface concerns have been produced. 

There is a product comparison tool here:
https://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/?c=34

Personally, I have been attracted to the Kawai KG line (older than RX), even with the older tech inside I have still found them to be excellent pianos.  

[hfmadopter]

I think a Boston would be fine for home use, if you can get it for a good price. We all would like the RX better, smoother action etc ! But the Boston should hold up well, sound good, look nice. Properly adjusted, it should also beat out most upright actions. You just have to play it and see how it feels to you.

[ainmpiano]

Thanks again for the replies.

I am looking into these different options.

As part of that, I just got some proposed prices from the local Kawai dealer.
He is offering a new GL-20 for 15K (or will be during a sale soon).

I have found just one online price for the GL-20, which is just a little higher than 15K.
How can I know if 15K is a fair price?
Thanks.
Mac

[huaidongxi]

$15 k. is in the range of 'fair' on a new instrument at retail.  it is also a substantial heap of simoleons in terms of finding a good small grand piano.  are you particularly attached to replacing your almost new upright with a new instrument ?  the other respondent(s) have excellent suggestions for looking for a used one.  you might be happier with a slightly bigger used instrument in great condition for the same dollars, in the long term, unless you enjoy the 'trading up' process as your and your child's playing evolves.

[ainmpiano]

huaidongxi,

Thanks.

I hear you.

The only problem is that I see precious few used Kawai baby grands for sale around here. The local Kawai dealer has only one used Kawai baby grand, a 1977 GE 1 for 10k.
I see one Kawai RX-2 baby grand on craigslist for 8k.

Mac

[hfmadopter]

$15 k. is in the range of 'fair' on a new instrument at retail.  it is also a substantial heap of simoleons in terms of finding a good small grand piano.  are you particularly attached to replacing your almost new upright with a new instrument ?  the other respondent(s) have excellent suggestions for looking for a used one.  you might be happier with a slightly bigger used instrument in great condition for the same dollars, in the long term, unless you enjoy the 'trading up' process as your and your child's playing evolves.

Would you be trading in your upright ?

[quantum]

If budget is a large concern, and you are looking to get a quality instrument that will take you farther in your musical development (as opposed to one that is just ok for now), I suggest looking at the used market.  There are a lot of wonderful older model pianos to be had for reasonable prices.  The RX-2 you cited is an example, and it would have a lot more than a GL series.  

Realize that a piano purchase is often an emotional roller coaster for the buyer and their family.  If you are patient and do thorough research, you will be awarded with an instrument you can afford and that is of good quality.  It is easy to go to the dealer and pick up something new, because there is that security.  But if you are disciplined in your research for a used instrument, there are a lot of good things that can come out of it.  

You can get a lot of piano with 15K if that is where you are comfortable.  

[huaidongxi]

mac, it sounds like your decision to take the jump from very good upright to small grand is fairly recent.  your time might be well invested in simply trying out any interesting small grands you have access to, and just waiting for the right instrument to appear in the market when you have a secure sense of what you like most.  play instruments in the 5'5 to 5'11 size range if you can, like the kawai rx-2 that has made quite a few pianists happy mentioned by others here.  the market for used grands in most places in the u.s. is much better than Finland for example, where apparently kawais never reach.  moving small grands is actually easier than the old school large uprights, and you might be defining your market area narrower than you have to.

[visitor]

I let the folks here continue the discussion and i whole heartedly agree.
it sounds like op is leaning towards new and i would continue to emphasize the dimished buying power of going that way but its not like its a dumb idea.

The fact that the good kawai instruments are hard to find used is a testament to their value and durability!

 People simply are not getting rid of them at the rate that would show a big used market supply, it means they are pretty good. People either buy and keep and dont sell, or they sell so fast you dont see them sittng on the market very long.

Op can do whatever she/he wants but the consensus is patience will save ou money do not discount the little 5 5 estonia, its widely considered one if the finest under 5 6 instruments in the world.

Its ike buying a car, a lightly used lexus or acura will generally give you a better buy and ownership experience than a shiney new mid tier toyota or honda or nissan.  The fit, finish, design, inefficient manufacturing, and materials  tend to make for a more durable and higher performing machine.

12-16k buys a LOT of high quality pre owned piano.  However new is not bad if op planns to upgrade in the future so its not stupid to buy a middle or upper middle tier new kawai then upgrade to a good rx/gx type later on, or better yet a shigeru can make sense. But if a possible lnon long term ownership is planned ie less than 10 years, my money still holds for a  babied rx if i canot squeeze into a shigeru.

honesty thats a decent idea too, if op can aggressively save and wait for 1-3 more yers and move the budget into the 23-29k range, the options become even better, though rare i have seen opportunities to snatch up a shigeru in that 25kish neighborhood in the past on the used market but those are even harder to find used.

One listing i remember was short just said. Its a shigeru and didnt bother giving details, just that if you/ a buyer qas reading the ad then they should knowexactly what it was and didnt need explaining, just a sad desprate motivated to sell due to emergency and that was that. I think it sold in days close to just a hair over what a reseller would have paid on a trade
 People generally keep the high end rx/gx and shigeru type pianos for life

[ainmpiano]

> Would you be trading in your upright ?

I would.

[ainmpiano]

Thanks again for the all additional replies.

I am definitely looking at both - used and new.

best,
Mac

[hfmadopter]

Obviously some dealers have new and used on site. An advantage with a dealer is they would offer a trade in on your old piano and can either move them or arrange moving, or otherwise be in charge of the whole swap out. Also, generally there is one in house tuning involved with a dealer purchase, sometimes two. You won't get any of those embellishments from a private buy but you also won't be paying a portion of the dealers rent, advertising costs and for support either. But you will have to buy some things separately if you go with a private buy.

An 8K RX2 sounds appealing unless you find out it needs some expensive work. I'm not saying it does, I'm saying if. The only way to know is to go look, play, evaluate if it's worth having a professional tech assess it for you or just nix it from your list.

[quantum]

ainmpiano,

How long have you been undertaking this piano search?

How many pianos or dealership locations have you visited, that is, actually had your hands on keys and actively playing instruments to evaluate them?

[ainmpiano]

> How long have you been undertaking this piano search?

I am at the beginning of thinking about this.

> How many pianos or dealership locations have you visited, that is, actually had your hands on keys and actively playing instruments to evaluate them?

None, yet. I will have time to look at some pianos next week (the week that starts tomorrow, Monday).

Thanks.

[ainmpiano]

Update:

I had a chance to play a new Kawai GL-10, which was just fine, but not exactly the step up that I was looking for.

The piano store had no GL-20s at that moment, but will in a couple three weeks.

Interestingly, the salesman did direct me to a new Baldwin BP152, since they had just sold their last GL-20.

I did like the sound and feel of the Baldwin BP152. He offered me a very good price on it, with the trade-in of my K-6.

The price was comparable to a new GL-20.

So, I understand that the Baldwin BP152 is put together in China. The salesman made a pitch for the "German" aspect of the piano.

So...what do folks think about this piano? I have never considered getting a Baldwin before, and know nothing about this company.

Just asking...
Thanks.

Mac

[quantum]

When you do start playing pianos for evaluation, a lot of what has been said above will be further clarified.  It is a really important and probably the most fun part of piano searches.  You need to play pianos, lots of them, in lots of different locations.  This includes pianos that are over your budget, so you know what added quality does to an instrument; and those below your budget, so you know how much manufacturing cost savings you are willing to live with.  When you do, you will be able to come back with much more specific questions about the pianos you've played. 

Personally, they only Baldwins I've liked are the ones made in the mid 20th Century, especially the SD-10 concert grand.  None of the newer models made into the 21st century have appealed to me.  And you are not alone in experiencing pushy sales pitch on new Baldwins, I've seen that too.  IMO, unless it is an older Baldwin, I would pass.  That is unless you are really, really, really, really desperately in love with the piano.  If not, keep looking. 

Between the BP152 and GL-20, I would much prefer the Kawai. 

I had a chance to play a new Kawai GL-10, which was just fine, but not exactly the step up that I was looking for.

Can you elaborate on what you thought was missing for you in the GL-10.  How close was it to what you have in mind?

[hfmadopter]

The GL-10 is a baby, baby grand, at 153cm ( 5 ft).  I probably wouldn't have been enthralled with it either but the action should give you a sense of the millennium III feel.

Also understand that new pianos need to be played in, a few months use and then tuned and regulated might make a huge difference compared with the showroom experience.

[huaidongxi]

mac, we have a buyer's market now for used grand pianos in the u.s.  of course your own situation has its variables including budget, but you might be shocked if you're patient and learn how far your dollars can go, especially if you know a first rate technician to adjust and regulate your instrument.  when the Gibson co. bought Baldwin and decided to move manufacturing to the people's republic, they took some measures to maintain the value of the brand name.  they use non chinese parts and materials, and the original designs.  Gibson attempted to keep as much as possible the same except labor costs.  they're also more expensive than many pianos built in china.  if you liked the sound and response of the new Baldwin, it's a positive indication you would probably like the vintage instruments.  Baldwins once had a tremendous reputation among serious pianists -- if you ever listened to Marian McPartland's long-running n.p.r. piano hour, those were Baldwins you heard.  their former popularity means there are quite a few used Baldwins around. after the late 60s the company had many ups and downs, but even in that period prior to Gibson relocating the manufacturing there were good pianos.  all pianos especially used have big variations between individual instruments ; part of the reputations of kawai and yamaha comes from their effort to have their new instruments meet a uniform and predictable standard, but they are making so many instruments it's only feasible within certain parameters.  this comes back to my earlier suggestion that you simply play as many instruments you can, and include ones in the larger size range.

[ainmpiano]

> Can you elaborate on what you thought was missing for you in the GL-10? How close was it to what you have in mind?

Quantum,

It may have been the smallish room that it was in, but it seemed a little bright for my ears. I am looking for something with a rich, calm tone. My hearing is very sensitive. I hear every overtone and every flaw in the keys, for better or for worse (for worse).
Not sure how close it was to what I want.

Also, about the soft pedal on that piano. When I pressed it, I was a little startled to see all the keys get jammed over to the right half an inch quite roughly. Frankly, the overall, resulting movement of the keys seemed loose and flimsy.
My 2 cents.

[indianajo]

Excessive brightness and volume may be the result of any grand in a small room.  They are built to project to an audience out to the right of the player.  
While grands are prestigeous, for most purposes a vertical piano is more satisifying to me in my small rooms.  Only the middle pedal of a grand is unique to me over the vertical function, and only a very few  advanced pieces make use of it.  
The early eighties Kawai upright I played was okay, but I prefer the sound of Sohmer, Baldwin, Wurlitzer Mason & Hamlin, all pre-globalization (prior to mid eighties production in most cases).  Steinway 1941 was great, the modern verticals are too heavy for me and project sound not at the player.  
If you like less high frequency, a duller tone, a Baldwin Howard may be more pleasing to you than an Acrosonic, which is very bright.  Wurlitzers are more mello than Acrosonics,  as was the  Mason & Hamlin I tried.  Wurly & M&H have less ping.  I find Everett & the followon  Yamaha verticals  dull. Brightness is swallowed up at my house by filled bookcases, record racks, carpet, and upholstered furniture.   
Any modern production piano, be sure to check how consistent minimum volume  is from key to key. An import "Wurlitzer" in a student's house was very uneven when given that test.  Also check maximum volume, also ultimate repeat speed of a single note (using two hands). Do these on any piano of course.  
Tonal match between top, middle, and bass keys is important to long term use.  Intermediate students and above can use all 88 keys.  
Have fun shopping, and don't be afraid of used pianos.  In most cases I find them superior to what is in fashion these days.  See this to sort out the trash from the gems:  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58857.0
Most old pianos were bought for prestige and just sat, few were actually played very much.  Pianos are not cars, there are no rubber parts to deteriorate just sitting still.  
Have fun shopping.  

[ainmpiano]

A quick update:

After playing some pianos yesterday evening, and then playing my K-6 this morning, I was reminded of how good my K-6 sounds, relative to even the Baldwin BP152.

When I played this morning, I did not think, "Wow. This sounds like hell compared to that Baldwin, or that GL-10."

There was a difference, but I am not sure it is worth an additional 7,000 dollars out of my pocket (8K as trade-in for the K-6 and an additional 7K for the Baldwin or GL-20. About 15K total for either).

Just thinking out loud...

[quantum]

It may have been the smallish room that it was in, but it seemed a little bright for my ears. I am looking for something with a rich, calm tone. My hearing is very sensitive. I hear every overtone and every flaw in the keys, for better or for worse (for worse).
Not sure how close it was to what I want.

Room treatment greatly affects the overall sound of the instrument.  There is a lot you could do at home to tune your room, with furniture selection, rugs, tapestries, draperies, etc.  That said, of course you would want to choose a piano that comes close to your desired tonal qualities.  It doesn't need to be perfectly ideal, as there is wiggle room with piano voicing and room treatment.  

Also, about the soft pedal on that piano. When I pressed it, I was a little startled to see all the keys get jammed over to the right half an inch quite roughly. Frankly, the overall, resulting movement of the keys seemed loose and flimsy.

The left pedal on a grand is very different from that on verticals.  On most grands the left pedal would be an una corda: it shifts the entire keyboard so two things happen - hammers strike only 2 of 3 strings, strings contact the hammers in an area of softer felt.  The touch remains unchanged no matter what position you have the una corda pedal in.  

The left pedal on most verticals is a soft pedal, it moves the hammers closer to the strings.  However, it does change the touch and response of the keyboard, and there is little or no tonal variance in its application.  

Una corda pedals on grands a far superior and more versatile then the soft pedals on verticals.  With one, you can shape tone color without any change in touch response.  The shift, while surprising at first, is easy to adapt to and will quickly become second nature to the player.  The una corda is one of the reasons behind my strong preference for grands. 

[hfmadopter]

A quick update:

After playing some pianos yesterday evening, and then playing my K-6 this morning, I was reminded of how good my K-6 sounds, relative to even the Baldwin BP152.

When I played this morning, I did not think, "Wow. This sounds like hell compared to that Baldwin, or that GL-10."

There was a difference, but I am not sure it is worth an additional 7,000 dollars out of my pocket (8K as trade-in for the K-6 and an additional 7K for the Baldwin or GL-20. About 15K total for either).

Just thinking out loud...

Well looking back on your original post it seemed your concerns were not tone related but action.

[huaidongxi]

mac, part of my preference for older instruments is how their characteristics are more evolved, including how they sound.  a good technician would also accomplish a couple of things with either a new or used piano as far as the modifying the tone color and eliminating the harsh overtones. you'd need his/her impression and evaluation of the specific piano, with your preferences and feedback.  the new instruments in show rooms aren't always set up meticulously by the shop's technicians, or they might be intentionally set up to sound brash and bright to make an impression on the customers.  the more pianos you try the more you will learn about the differences and your preferences.  it sounds like you have started with new instruments in the smallest size range.  you can probably find medium sized (5'7-5'11) used grands in the $10-14 k. range, but time of course is another investment with a budget.

[ainmpiano]

How would I go about finding a professional piano tech to take a look at the used RX-2 with me?

Thanks.
Mac

[hfmadopter]

How would I go about finding about a professional piano tech to take a look at the used RX-2 with me?

Thanks.
Mac

If you can't get any good word of mouth feed back on someone good, then guilds usually have some good people:   https://www.ptg.org/Scripts/4Disapi.dll/4DCGI/cms/review.html?Action=CMS_Document&DocID=19&MenuKey=Menu27