Chopin Nocturne notation question

[stillofthenight]

This is from Chopin Nocturne Op 27 No2.

I circled in red the part I am confused about. I am not sure why there is an explicit eighth note bar shown. For the first beat is it just supposed to be played as all sixteenth notes? The first beat shows 6 notes to be played and the only way you can play 6 notes in one beat in 6/8 time is for them all to be sixteenth notes. I was just going to  play it like the arpgeggios were played in the opening bars.

[dw4rn]

I have looked through a number of editions including modern Urtext editions and early ones from Chopin's lifetime and can't find this notation anywhere. it is probably the editor of your score who wants to point out some of the eighth note beats for some reason, that's all. In some other contexts, that can be helpful.

Anyway, I got curious, but surely it doesn't really matter. Even if this would have been how Chopin wrote it, there wouldn't be any other way to play it than as sixteenth notes throughout.

[adodd81802]

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[visitor]

looks like it's just a grouping and page layout convention used to help the player see what happens on the of beat of 2 and for beat 3

which edition is this? have you consulted other editions and is the notation the same? i think it's note the best way to lay it out.

when i'm stumped i break it down further and further in to smaller easier to digest subdivisions. in the latter approach i just mentioned

that  would act like a super triplet, if you are in 6/8 time, each eight gets a beat, or you can digest it down to 12/16 so 12 sixteenth notes per measure (and for counting it we can do 6 + 6).

i have not played this but from a layout and note value preservation view , i initially see it as:
 as 2 vs 3 in the sub beat you circled and right after
, counting 1 2 3 4 5 6 w/ lh,
rh is 1(hold 2) 3  4(rest)  and super triplet (5-6) [super triple being similar to when you see a quarter note triplet vs. 2 quarter notes in 4/4 time). It's the only way i can make it work in my head, i am not at a piano but if i was playing through this, that's how i'd initially  approach it.

alternately you can take those 2 sixteenth notes at the end of beat 1 in the left hand and play them as 1 eight by blocking them. in doing so you still play the rh as a triplet against that 1 eight note beat. the fact that the final two sub beats of the 2nd half of the measure also play out as poly rhythms strengthens my initial assumption

[thirtytwo2020]

have you consulted other editions and is the notation the same?

I have looked through a number of editions including modern Urtext editions and early ones from Chopin's lifetime and can't find this notation anywhere.

[visitor]

dully noted but those remarks did not come from the OP so missed on my initial read. my suspicion still stands that it's interpreted as compound meter poly rhythm in the  version op posted and there is no break from all having same note/rhythm value in the lh, it is the underlying beat and off beat

[stillofthenight]

I got it from a youtube video

It is at 27 seconds in.

Maybe that is the problem lol. I should try using more "official" sources I suppose.

[stillofthenight]

Okay thanks for the replies. I also have another problem I ran into. Nocturne 27 No.2

It is at bar 7. I am confused on how to play the area with the "turn". I assume the Eb on the first note of beat 2 is not part of the turn. I assume the turn is composed of the notes "F, Eb, Db, Eb". That is, 4 notes between the Eb and F. Is that correct?

The problem I have is how to think of the mathematical timing of the turn in 6/8, or even 4/4! I am not sure where the notes fall mathematically against the sixteenth note arpeggio.

I would understand best if someone could explain as mathematically as possible.

I also drew a red line in the photo where I believe two notes are played together at the same time. I had to slow down a recording to try to hear it so I maybe wrong. I do not know why I am hearing that. Shouldn't the F be the note right after the "turn". The F should occur on the 3rd sixteenth note "Bb" of the arpgeggio and they are also aligned exactly as such in the score.

The recording I was listening to was:

Maybe someone could explain in 4/4 time first so it is easier for me to understand in 6/8.

[thirtytwo2020]

The four notes are F, E-flat, D and E-flat, and standard procedure I think would be to play the whole turn on the second sixteenth note of that LH arpeggio (the note G flat).

In other words, make the tied E-flat on the first note of beat 2 a sixteenth note -- play the four notes of the turn as 64th notes -- play the F at the end of the turn together with the B flat in the LH.

That is, if you are going to play this mathematically... The reason you are hearing something different in the recording is probably that the pianist is making use of a certain kind of rubato where the hands sometimes go out of sync. Chopin himself is known to have used and recommended this style of playing. Basically, you should try to play the LH with a very strict pulse, while the RH is played sometimes before, sometimes after the beat.

[adodd81802]

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[thirtytwo2020]

Adodd81802, i think you are wrong except in your claim that the most important aspect is to keep the left hand pulse going.

Could you link to a single recording where anybody plays anything remotely like what you suggest? Surely, the F after the turn has to be played in line with the B-flat in the LH (allowing for a flexible, rubato approach of course). Otherwise I think the notated rhythm is seriously distorted.

And i think most people would use D natural for the turn, however I don't know whether it's correct from an "Urtext"-perspective....

[stillofthenight]

Well I know by me saying "mathematically" might sound silly. But I found that if I can understand the notes that way I have much more control and insight into what I am playing. It also allows me to have greater control over rubato style playing.

I once posted a thread on here asking about how note heads are placed in the exact spaces they are in a score. Like say 3 against two etc. I wanted to know the math behind the spacing and a great person on here by the name of Lelle really cleared up a lot of confusion I had. Thanks to Lelle I was able to have a greater understanding as to what I am playing. There were fractions galore in her explanation but it did make sense to me! That is what just works for me as silly as it may sound!

[iansinclair]

Neither of these is difficult.  To play mathematically correctly, that is.  To play musically?  Ah -- that's a different matter. 

In the first example, with the tie line, the idea is to place a very very slight accent on the 5th  sixteenth note of the left hand broken chord.  The sixteenth triplet in the right hand goes -- more or less -- with the last two sixteenth notes of the left hand, with the sixteenth note just before the triplet as a kind of pickup to the triplet (and it should be, musically, delayed a fraction after the 4th sixteenth note of the left hand).

In the second example, Take the basics first: you have the broken chord sixteenth notes in the left hand -- 12 notes, in two groups of 6.  The first note of each group should have a very slight accent on it, and the third and fifth in each group another slight accent (but less than the one on the first note of the group).  This give you the six basic beats of 6/8 time, by the way.  Then, in the right hand, starting at the beginning of the measure, you have a quarter note followed by and eighth; these notes match up with the six notes of the first broken chord in the measure.  Then you have the three eighth notes which match to the first, third, and fifth of the eighth notes in the left hand.

Now, and this is important at what I expect is your stage of learning the piece: Play it that way, in strict time, without the turn, until it is rock solid.  Once you have it so it is rock solid that way, you can introduce the turn which, as others have said, is F, E flat, D, E flat, starting exactly where the F started while you were learning it, and including the written F as a slightly longer note.  Mathematically you might think of dividing that written F into two pieces: the turn and the written F, of equal length, but it needn't come out that way when you play it -- the written F should be a bit shorter, starting slightly after, not exactly on, the G of the broken chord in the left.

How exact this is depends a lot on the tempo.  If it is slower, it will be more exactly half and half.

Whatever you do, keep that left hand on an even pulse.  Rubato in Chopin is very important, but must be used with a great deal of caution and is often overdone.  As far as left hand rubato in this -- and many other of the Nocturnes, which use the same general style -- the tempo variation in the left hand, if any, should be much more in the nature of a slight suspension in the last one or two notes of the broken chord, and never (in my not so humble opinion) in the middle or beginning of one!  In the right hand the importance is to make the whole thing sing; if it is necessary to stretch or note here and there -- and it is -- that is what you are striving for.

[thirtytwo2020]

@iansinclair

The turn is on the E-flat, isn't it? You and I agree that the notes should be F-Eb-D-Eb, so we both consider the turn to be on E-flat.
And we are right, because Chopin wrote it (in all editions I know and in Chopin's autograph) over the second E-flat or between E-flat and F (in the autograph it is actually very close to the E-flat, and by the way, there is no tie between the two E-flats).

This second E-flat is on the fourth eighth note beat of the bar in question. So why do you want to place the turn on the fifth beat? The turn belongs to E-flat and therefore to the fourth beat, surely it should be finished before you play the B-flat in the left hand and the F in the right hand. 

[iansinclair]

@iansinclair

The turn is on the E-flat, isn't it? You and I agree that the notes should be F-Eb-D-Eb, so we both consider the turn to be on E-flat.
And we are right, because Chopin wrote it (in all editions I know and in Chopin's autograph) over the second E-flat or between E-flat and F (in the autograph it is actually very close to the E-flat, and by the way, there is no tie between the two E-flats).

This second E-flat is on the fourth eighth note beat of the bar in question. So why do you want to place the turn on the fifth beat? The turn belongs to E-flat and therefore to the fourth beat, surely it should be finished before you play the B-flat in the left hand and the F in the right hand. 

Actually that is more or less the way I play it.  I'd have to listen to a recording of myself to be really sure what I do do -- and that is something I don't care to do!  If one looks at the whole sequence, what it seems to me is that one has the written E flat, then the turn onto the F leading to the G.  So one winds up with a slightly long E flat, then a graceful twist up and down and up again landing, one hopes, gracefully on the G, with the F before the G being longer than the notes in the turn but shorter than the original E flat and final G... and try explaining that 10 times!  Chopin sometimes drives me batty...