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Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips (Read 2002 times)

Offline mjames

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Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
« on: June 21, 2016, 11:31:58 PM »
Posted this awhile back under a throw away account so I'll repost it as myself. <.< I'm revisiting this nocturne and want some tips for polishing and any suggestions in interpretation.
Secondly, I can play fast runs quite fine and dandy but it falls apart during recitals and stuff, so basically when I'm nervous. How can i overcome that? It's beginning to bug me lol.

Anyways here:


piano sheet music of Nocturne


Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #1 on: June 22, 2016, 12:17:18 AM »
Very nice.
As to your question; I've found that those things tend to become manageable (though rarely die completely) simply with more performing experience.
Some thoughts:
I still think the bel canto accompaniment could be a little quieter. Generally in Chopin nocturnes like these there are 3 parts; melody, flowing accompaniment, and bass notes.
I prioritize them thusly: Melody, most emphasized - Bass notes, emphasized to give the melody some musical context - flow underneath, not emphasized, kept to a minimum hush to allow the melody to sing out with the bass providing the extra bit of substance underneath.
Jazz Ambassador 8)

Offline mjames

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #2 on: June 22, 2016, 12:28:06 AM »
Will definitely take that into account!
On regards to the run, it's a shame. I guess I'll just have to be a little bit more daring with my pieces when i play in public. Maybe that'll desensitize me when it comes nerves. :X

Offline briansaddleback

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #3 on: June 22, 2016, 02:00:29 AM »
Nice , keep up the good work , bra
Work in progress:

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Offline kawai_cs

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 02:33:00 AM »
Hard to believe you are self-tought.
You are talented. Very good!
Chopin, 10-8 | Chopin, 25-12 | Haydn, HOB XVI:20

Offline briansaddleback

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 06:08:46 AM »
.
Work in progress:

Rondo Alla Turca

Offline adodd81802

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 08:44:01 AM »
.
"England is a country of pianos, they are everywhere."

Offline thirtytwo2020

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #7 on: June 22, 2016, 09:54:27 AM »
I agree with everyone else that this is extremely nice.

Couple of things I think about, since you're asking for polishing tips...:

It would be wonderful if you could add more dynamic variation. My score has ppp:s, ff:s and everything in between... then again, perhaps you are doing more of this than what one can hear in the recording.

Also, I think you could use more rubato. Again, my score has a lot of notated rallentandos which I would do slightly bigger.

Finally, it seems to me you sometimes accent the first beats too much. For instance, in the middle section, where the RH plays octaves. Maybe you could experiment a bit with the phrasing here, so the music flows a little more. The way you play in the recording, stopping a little at every eighth note gesture, sounds a bit static and repetitive.

Offline visitor

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #8 on: June 22, 2016, 10:43:18 AM »
Yo ! Dude this is pretty rad, and it kinda has to be for me to stay engaged and listen all the way through (for non chopin mazurkas).

Lots ot say, short on time atm but will ping in more when i can listen with hq earbuds to get a better aural sense of what i hear and don't (but would like) to hear.

first, i almost immediately get the sense you really connect with the piece. There's little doubt in my mind you have a sense if what you hear in your "mind's ear" but there is a disconnect in execution. I have those moments too.  Guess what(?), that's a fantastic place to be. You cannot improve on and change what you are satisfied with or what you don't feel is lacking.

first i believe you (though recorder and instrument may be at play) you have a lot of room to explore on tone.
I have a hard time making more sense of this without a shot of your hands while playing, but
i would totally press you to get the contrast between the lh and rh more pronounced.

my challenge to you is to get that lh quieter wthout letting your tone get too thin. How curved are your fingers? Explore a more flat finger approach. That lh should be present  but no where near so pronounced.

it is a night piece, think fog , whispy...like there's shape but the details only subtly cut through here and there when there is movement (or think 'distant' listen to the more effective recordings of the 2nd ballade, the very beginning, those quiet moments introducing that main first theme, more or less that flavor...).

Chopin is a complet punk when it comes to ncts (non chord tones) but it also gives you a lot of room to play, there is a lot of frilly embellishing.  Explore those juicy dissonances and understand the drama you have room to build with those accidentals and also w the harmonic underpinnings. play out and give those accidentals that 'clash' more inflection and emphasis, there's expressive emotional tension building in those spots...  So more pronounced phrasing, exaggerate your build up and climax and play out-play through those transitory passages, the harmonic instability is your invite to amp up some "pain"

I have shared some in the past on performing vs practice or playing for a camera.

hey we all get nervous.  But you have to get yourself in front of people as much as possible even if just playing for old folks at a nursing home, friends in your practice room, etc

record and share, rinse lather repeat in addition to the above.  I have some more on the subject will add later on.


Summary
contrast between the hands and find places to give dissonance more attention
soften your touch and vary your feel w exploring a flatter vs curved finger shape in the hands
record more and find ways to practice your performance vs just practicing  the piece.

 8)



Offline briansaddleback

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #9 on: June 22, 2016, 04:57:41 PM »
.
Work in progress:

Rondo Alla Turca

Offline kawai_cs

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #10 on: June 23, 2016, 02:44:39 AM »
ahh.... great advice!
kawai, would I be in your heart if I play for you the first page of rondo alla turca, hmm??

1 (just one!) page of a grade 7 piece played with roughly 30% of wrong notes? And you dare to ask? lol
Chopin, 10-8 | Chopin, 25-12 | Haydn, HOB XVI:20

Offline mjames

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #11 on: June 23, 2016, 05:16:14 AM »
I just want to say, thank you for the comments. Means a lot! In regards to advice, they all seem to mention my tones and phrasing...which is expected honestly.

I agree with everyone else that this is extremely nice.

Couple of things I think about, since you're asking for polishing tips...:

It would be wonderful if you could add more dynamic variation. My score has ppp:s, ff:s and everything in between... then again, perhaps you are doing more of this than what one can hear in the recording.

Also, I think you could use more rubato. Again, my score has a lot of notated rallentandos which I would do slightly bigger.

Finally, it seems to me you sometimes accent the first beats too much. For instance, in the middle section, where the RH plays octaves. Maybe you could experiment a bit with the phrasing here, so the music flows a little more. The way you play in the recording, stopping a little at every eighth note gesture, sounds a bit static and repetitive.

yupyup, I sort of noticed that most mainstream interpretations seem to contrast the tempi between sections a and b. The way I played it here does make it sound a little boring and draggy, so I have been trying out your rubato suggestions and its starting to sound a lot more interesting!


first i believe you (though recorder and instrument may be at play) you have a lot of room to explore on tone.
I have a hard time making more sense of this without a shot of your hands while playing, but
i would totally press you to get the contrast between the lh and rh more pronounced.

my challenge to you is to get that lh quieter wthout letting your tone get too thin. How curved are your fingers? Explore a more flat finger approach. That lh should be present  but no where near so pronounced.


Yup it's definitely my technique. Can you elaborate on the flat finger approach? Any youtube videos you can recommend?
And thanks for the awesome comment, really appreciate it. : D
Also love the mazurkas xD

Offline visitor

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #12 on: June 23, 2016, 10:01:54 AM »


Yup it's definitely my technique. Can you elaborate on the flat finger approach? Any youtube videos you can recommend?
And thanks for the awesome comment, really appreciate it. : D
Also love the mazurkas xD

fyi/ i.e
Josh does a nice job explaining some differences. My primary approach is curved w a deviation from it when it is not as effective or when quiet/lyrical playing requires more control (he explains in vid)
 So its good to understand both and pick and choose, just another tool, a hammer, a scredriver, needle nose pliers, etc. right tool for the right job, some jobs can be done w/ multiple tools, but some tools are better than others for these instances  8). I tend to side w josh, curved i think is more versatile but like the article states below there are aspects to ffp that make it an effective special circumstance tool.


Will poke around some more, thisis probably one pf the newer approahces taught to me and i have to practice integrating it more.  

Here is a good take home msg excepted from the following write  up on where i was getting at in my first reply.....

If you have difficulty bringing out the color in a composition, using the FFPs will make it easier. Playing with the fingertip using the curled position is like driving a car without shock absorbers, or playing a piano with worn hammers. The tone will tend to come out harsh or non-legato. You are effectively restricted to one tone color. By using FFP, you can feel the keys better and control tone and color more easily. Because you can completely relax the third phalanges...

ill see if i see any more videos ,  this concept was somethig my previous teacher worked on w me on softer lyrical passages
 ....


Offline visitor

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #13 on: June 23, 2016, 10:09:42 AM »
Source link for the discussion
 I am re reading this to explore ffp as a speed mechanism as well in the appropriate passages as i had not yet really ridden that pony to the rodeo before. I personally feel ffp is better suited for color and tone control not speed....i do see the potential issue that arises if ffp is learned first, it becomes a crutch and makes it harder to incorporate a more naturall feeling curved later,  it it requires a little more finesse to effectively integrate it.
http://contentspiano.blogspot.com/2006/02/playing-with-flat-fingers.html?m=1

Offline briansaddleback

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #14 on: June 24, 2016, 08:44:29 PM »
1 (just one!)

HAHAHAHA!!

I do have my contacts on today.
Work in progress:

Rondo Alla Turca

Offline reiyza

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #15 on: June 25, 2016, 03:00:32 PM »
Very nice! :)

I envy you for managing those polyrhythms well, how do you practice it? :)
Yup.. still a beginner. Up til now..

When will a teacher accept me? :/

Offline mjames

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #16 on: June 26, 2016, 04:10:10 AM »
Very nice! :)

I envy you for managing those polyrhythms well, how do you practice it? :)

Counting chants:

1 po le 2 po le 3 po le 4 po le(triplets)

1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and (eighth notes)

and so on and so on

Then you just put them together. Use your ear to get the sound you want.


Offline amytsuda

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #17 on: June 26, 2016, 05:33:36 AM »
It is lovely! I really enjoyed it. I like your flow!

Secondly, I can play fast runs quite fine and dandy but it falls apart during recitals and stuff, so basically when I'm nervous. How can i overcome that? It's beginning to bug me lol.

Do you think it is really the nerve? I have hard time adjusting to new pianos. For me, particularly when I try a real big grand with the hood open, I feel so much more response and weight on my fingers, I start creating a lot of empty notes and start tripling around on runs. Once one finger goes off and fingering gets screwed, I sometimes can't get back on track.

I used to have habits of simply using my tiny 5th fingers as part of wrist motion (not really using fingers) and because each piano works differently, it causes the problem. So I am trying to fix it by mindful finger motions - really pay attention to every finger and every note.

That's my case, I don't know your case - what is the cause. But I really don't buy into the nerve thing. First time I start going to a lesson with a teacher 3 years ago, I will completely fall apart on an easy thing I can play with my eyes closed at home. I thought it's my nerve and then I blamed his beautiful Steinway grand. My teacher told me it is not my nerve or the piano, it is because I think I am playing in my head but not really actually playing. I am not sure if this makes sense for you, nonetheless....

Offline clouseau

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #18 on: July 09, 2016, 11:53:21 PM »
Very nice!

If you want to be more secure on those runs you mentioned, there are a number of things you can try:

1) play only the right hand with the metronome at a speed where you don't do ANY mistake at all (even if that is super slow). If mistakes occur, there are two reasons:
  a) You are not concentrated (in that case take a break)
  b) the tempo is still too fast (then decrease the tempo)

when you are able to play 7 times with no mistake, set the metronome faster (+5 bpm)
Repeat this until you reach the tempo you desire. It is important however that you are listening carefully, to notice any mistake (in the notes or the rhythm) and be as accurate as you can. Listen to your body as well and allow your hand to rest.

2) play everything staccato and concentrate on evenness (you can also combine this with the method above)

3) play everything slowly and as pianissimo as possible, and evenly.

4) play all the notes fortissimo (be carefull with tension)

Experience taught me that if mistakes occur in performance, it is because mistakes occured in practice. You have to avoid mistakes in practice as much as you can and play correctly from the beginning!


 
"What the devil do you mean to sing to me, priest? You are out of tune." - Rameau

Offline deandeblock

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Re: Recording: Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1, need some polishing tips
«Reply #19 on: July 11, 2016, 08:44:59 PM »
...
first, i almost immediately get the sense you really connect with the piece. ...


Yep I had this too, it's not perfect (also recording itself) but it is very musical. Keep it up... wish I could play like this
work hard, play hard