Piano Forum



Remembering the great Maurizio Pollini
Legendary pianist Maurizio Pollini defined modern piano playing through a combination of virtuosity of the highest degree, a complete sense of musical purpose and commitment that works in complete control of the virtuosity. His passing was announced by Milan’s La Scala opera house on March 23. Read more >>

Topic: brexit?!!?  (Read 54159 times)

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1250 on: March 25, 2020, 07:20:26 AM
So much for free movement of people in Europe. Borders are closing and Countries are looking after their own people.
The EU is finished.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1251 on: March 25, 2020, 08:47:19 AM
So much for free movement of people in Europe. Borders are closing and Countries are looking after their own people.
The EU is finished.
Nonsense.

You might as well claim that the entire world is finished. Instead you imply that the only borders closing or closed are those within and into EU. Free movement of people the world over is being curtailed because of a virus, not because of any political policies on immigration.

Countries looking after their own people? Yes, as best they are able, as well as looking after all the immigrants who have settled in those countries. NHS and the police are seeking help from within UK; they will no longer be able to source most of it from outside UK, regardless of the dire need, because borders are closed.

All of this, however, is nothing to do with Brexit.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1252 on: March 25, 2020, 10:49:39 AM
As usual you talk bollocks.
One of the ideas behind the EU was no borders.
At the first sign of any trouble, up pop the borders and movement is curtailed. Nobody is worried about the EU, they are worried about Italy, France, Spain etc
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1253 on: March 25, 2020, 11:36:37 AM
One of the ideas behind the EU was no borders.
Really? So why might you suppose that, after the many decades of the existance of EU and its predecessors, are there so many and why does EU still have 27(½) member states with not the remotest possibility of them joining together as one?

At the first sign of any trouble, up pop the borders and movement is curtailed. Nobody is worried about the EU, they are worried about Italy, France, Spain etc
"At the first sign of any trouble"? This is a very serious global issue that we all now face, with some 25% of the world's population in lockdown!

"Nobody is worried about the EU (but) they are worried about Italy, France, Spain etc."? Those three are EU member states!

You write of EU as though it is a single country. It isn't. It's a group of 27(½) of them.

Movement is being curtailed, as I wrote earlier, for purely practical medical reasons, not political ones relating to immigration; do you seriously suppose that the borders around and within the EU bloc will all remain permanently closed once the virus has been slain (assuming that it will be)?

Moreover, the issue is not confied to movement across national borders in any case. For example, had many people in Lombardy not moved to other parts of Italy when their government gave an advance announcement of lockdown in that province, the virus might not have spread to those other areas to anything like the same extent.

Again, however, COVID-19 and its consequences, grave and worrying as of course they are, have nothing to do with Brexit and the virus is, as I have stated previously, no respecter of borders of any kind.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1254 on: March 25, 2020, 08:33:37 PM
You are in cloud cuckoo land if you discount the possibility of the EU morphing into a Federal State where the individual nations cease to have borders.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1255 on: March 25, 2020, 10:30:42 PM
You are in cloud cuckoo land if you discount the possibility of the EU morphing into a Federal State where the individual nations cease to have borders.
It hasn't happened in more than 70 years and doesn't look set to do so now, so I do not see where you're coming from here.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1256 on: March 26, 2020, 07:26:24 AM
For most of its 70 years it has been sensible. Now the erosion of its members individuality is a reality and a Federal Europe is the aim of some of the politicians.
Anyway, we are no longer a member so they can do what they want for the remainder of their existance.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1257 on: March 26, 2020, 08:10:26 AM
For most of its 70 years it has been sensible.
Indeed; flawed, undoubtedly, but broadly sensible.

Now the erosion of its members individuality is a reality and a Federal Europe is the aim of some of the politicians.
A few of them, yes, but I have no evidence that they are anywhere near a majority and I personally happen to think tht it is a v ery questionable idea on a number of grounds; as to "erosion of members' individuality", what specific evidence do you have that the French are any less French, the Danes any less Danish and the Italians any less Italian?

Anyway, we are no longer a member so they can do what they want for the remainder of their existance.
UK is in a tgransition period which is set to last for another 281 days and, in view of the ongoing impact of the Covid-19 crisis (which will require many months to address after the disease itself is wiped out, whenever that might be) and the likely acrimonious disagreement that will almost certainly characterise the negotiations when they are able to recommence, that transition period is bound to be far longer than that; if it turns out to be 3-5 years, I will be unsurprised and, of course, the longer it continues, the greater the likelihood that Brexit will gradually dissolve.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1258 on: March 26, 2020, 11:11:06 AM
Dissolve lol. You Remainers have ill placed optimism.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2934
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1259 on: March 26, 2020, 11:18:32 AM
I strongly believe that if coronavirus, or indeed any legal and political machination, is used to permanently circumvent Brexit, that sends an appalling message to the electorate.

For the record I think Brexit is a bad idea and driven, in part, by some dangerous ideologies, but if you're going to put a major question like that to the electorate and then fail to act on their wishes then
a. the question shouldn't have been put in the first place
b. it's a graphic demonstration, readily comprehensible by all, that democracy is a charade.

I think the consequences of b. are more dangerous than the consequences of Brexit, tbh.

I might add that any party is free to campaign at the next GE on the basis of applying to re-enter the EU.
My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
Info and samples from my first commercial album - https://youtu.be/IlRtSyPAVNU
My SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/andrew-wright-35

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1260 on: March 26, 2020, 11:25:06 AM
Dissolve lol. You Remainers have ill placed optimism.
It's not just Remain supporters; I know quite a few people who voted for Brexit (some of whom would even do so again given the opportunity) who nevertheless share the view that, between the problems caused by the impact of COVID-19 and its likely medium- to long-term legacy on top of the very real risk that negotiations, if and when they resume, will be fraught, long-drawn-out and doomed to failure, the likelihood of Brexit is already ebbing away; all of Boris's "get it done" braggadocio is already starting to look rather silly (or at the very least woefully premature) in the unprecedented circumstances in which we all now find ourselves.

Moreover, if negotiations do finally break down some time over the next few years, the spectre of a no-deal Brexit as the default option will likely have evaporated to the point at which a majority of the UK electorate will be so scared of the risk of being worse off as a consequence that the demand for a second referendum is likely to be high; by this I do not mean a re-run of the first one but a new referendum asking for a yes or no response on the acceptability of a no deal Brexit. If this happens, I suspect that at least 60% of voters will give the thumbs down to that.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1261 on: March 26, 2020, 11:39:50 AM
You are in cloud cuckoo land if you discount the possibility of the EU morphing into a Federal State where the individual nations cease to have borders.
Where I live there are often clouds and the occasional cuckoo but I do not discount that possibility; I just recognise it as a vanishingly small one.

In some 70 years, no movement towards such an end has been evidenced.

Neither the EU Parliament nor the EU Commission has commenced steps to implement this nor announced that they propose to do so or even to debate the possibility of doing so.

Only 19 of the 28 EU member states (and I include UK in this as it's in transition for the time being) are in the Eurozone.

Only 22 out of the 28 EU member states are participants in the Schengen agreement.

Yes, there are of course those who advocate an United States of Europe (and there probably always have been), but they're not only very much in the minority but also not in mutual agreement as to which countries should become part of such an USE; some favour all 28 EU member states, some all 47 Council of Europe member states and a few would prefer it to be Europe in its entirety.

One important factor that would militate against the formation of any such union is the economic disparity between those countries; it's significant enough just for the EU ones but if the Council of Europe is factored in it's greater still and if the whole of Europe then considerably greater again. I suspect that this alone would render such a project impossible of execution and, in any case, no EU member state government advocates it as a potential policy.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1262 on: March 26, 2020, 12:55:19 PM
I strongly believe that if coronavirus, or indeed any legal and political machination, is used to permanently circumvent Brexit, that sends an appalling message to the electorate.
I don't disagree but, rather than intended as prophetic of any such wilful machinations per se, my view is that, as coronavirus affects all countries, it will likely put the brakes on many things including Brexit negotiations without need for politicians, lawyers or anyone else to ensure that it does so.

For the record I think Brexit is a bad idea and driven, in part, by some dangerous ideologies
I share your view.

but if you're going to put a major question like that to the electorate and then fail to act on their wishes then
a. the question shouldn't have been put in the first place
b. it's a graphic demonstration, readily comprehensible by all, that democracy is a charade.
I don't think that it's quite so straightforward as that. Leaving aside
a) the tiny majority that appeared to favour Brexit,
b) the fact that only 2 of UK's 4 nations voted for Brexit and
c) the extent to which some who voted for Brexit would no longer do so if asked again,
"failure to act" on the supposed wishes of the UK electorate will not necessarily be down to UK alone, so UK cannot realistically accept all the blame for it; the very fact that it's a case of 27 against 1 alone identifies that.

I do, however, agree with a.; the question should never have been put at all, for two principal reasons:

1. UK's continued EU membership should either not have been raised at all or have been subjected to customary Parliamentary democratic processes that have served almost all UK legislative proceedings for centuries and which entail debating and voting in its two Houses of Parliament rather than ducking responsibility and farming it out to plebiscite.

2. The single grossly over-simplistic "yes or no" question was quite obviously so incompatible with the immense complexities and ramifications of any such membership change as to constitute an affront and insult to electoral intelligence; apart from any other considerations, the possibility of a no deal Brexit as its outcome was never even mentioned, still less included in a referendum question, despite its obvious gravity.

I think the consequences of b. are more dangerous than the consequences of Brexit, tbh.
On the contrary, the true charade here was in the cavalier abandonment of democratic process that enabled the issue to be advised by the electorate rather than debated and voted on by the Lords whom citizens pay and the MPs whom they elect and pay to design and pass (or decline to pass) legislation - that is their job.

I might add that any party is free to campaign at the next GE on the basis of applying to re-enter the EU.
Whilst that is of course true, it is by no means certain in any case that Brexit will have occurred in any form by the time that the next GE is called.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1263 on: March 27, 2020, 07:20:52 AM
Stuck in your tiresome remainer groove. If you think this virus has come to your rescue, you will be very disappointed.
If we had left our membership of the EU to the MP's and Lords it would never have happened due to large scale self interest.
The 2nd Brexit referendum otherwise known as the General Election was pretty convincing considering Remainers had predicted a turn in public opinion. I do not care what Scotland voted for and long for their removal from our Parliament.
To answer a question you made previously, when i can walk from one end of my town to the other and not hear one word of my mother tongue, i do feel less English. I hold Blair and the EU responsible.
I will send a few down to your place to see how you like it.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1264 on: March 27, 2020, 08:14:28 AM
Stuck in your tiresome remainer groove.
Not at all. There's no groove. I'm stuck in nothing except for self-isolation (other than to get groceries).

If you think this virus has come to your rescue, you will be very disappointed.
I don't; who said anything about "rescue"? I have nothing from which to be rescued!

If we had left our membership of the EU to the MP's and Lords it would never have happened due to large scale self interest.
If you believe that, why are you willing to continue to pay them both and elect the latter? Why not advocate abolishing the lot? If your trust in democratic government is as low as you suggest here, why would you even trust it to set up a referendum and act on its result?

The 2nd Brexit referendum otherwise known as the General Election was pretty convincing considering Remainers had predicted a turn in public opinion. I do not care what Scotland voted for and long for their removal from our Parliament.
The last GE's made no difference to Brexit! It's all on hold and, if and when negotiations resume, they will likely drag on interminably and ultimately fail.

Whatever your view of Scotland's voting, the Scots DO care. It seems that you advocate the break-up of UK; is that the case?

COVID-19 has no conceivable connection with Brexit other than that its power to delay negotiations; it's a medical issue, not a political one!

To answer a question you made previously, when i can walk from one end of my town to the other and not hear one word of my mother tongue, i do feel less English. I hold Blair and the EU responsible.
But that doesn't make you any less English! You hold EU responsible, yet how many non-English people in your area are from EU and how many from elsewhere?

I will send a few down to your place to see how you like it.
No need to bother - plenty here already - and their presence, like that of English people, makes me feel no less Scottish!

That said, most people around here do speak English irrespective of their origins. Living in UK does imply the need to do so, of course, although many from elsewhere aren't necessarily expected to speak English when with others from their country of origin. All the Ukrainian / Moldovan / Polish people with whom I've spoken in these parts speak to me in English (which is just as well, really)!

Nothing in the last two paragraphs has anything to do with Brexit anyway!

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1265 on: March 28, 2020, 07:10:01 AM
The MP's have other functions apart from delivering the result of a referendum.
However, it is now time to scrap the House of Lords.
They have long outlived their usefulness
.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1266 on: March 28, 2020, 08:06:56 AM
The MP's have other functions apart from delivering the result of a referendum.
Of course they do, but you mentioned that, had the continued UK/EU  membership issue been subjected to democratic Parliamentary process, Remain would have prevailed due to large scale self-interest on the part of MPs as well as Lords.

However, it is now time to scrap the House of Lords.

They have long outlived their usefulness.
Be that as it may or may not, scrapping it would leave MPs in an even more powerful and unchecked position to pursue the large scale self-interest of which you accuse them and, had the Lords been abolished 6 years ago, MPs would presumably have voted for UK to remain an EU member state.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1267 on: March 28, 2020, 08:17:39 AM
The House of Commons are much more Brexit orientated now, due to the large majority of the Tories.
I doubt if any attempts to thwart the process of leaving would be successful.
6 months ago it was different, but now, MP''s largrly represent the wishes of the electorate.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1268 on: March 28, 2020, 09:12:01 AM
The House of Commons are much more Brexit orientated now, due to the large majority of the Tories.
I doubt if any attempts to thwart the process of leaving would be successful.
6 months ago it was different, but now, MP''s largrly represent the wishes of the electorate.
But we were talking about what would have happened in 2016 had Parliament debated and voted on the issue, not what might happen were it to address it for the first time now (assuming there to be enough MPs to vote anyway in view of the circumstances). Are you now suggesting, then, that much of the Parliamentary self-interest to which you referred has ebbed away and no longer afflitcs the two Houses? If so, I wonder how that would have come about unnoticed?!...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1269 on: March 29, 2020, 06:43:32 AM
The last General Election seems to have drained the swamp.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1270 on: March 29, 2020, 08:31:37 AM
The last General Election seems to have drained the swamp.
There was none to drain other than that which was caused by the severe flooding that affected several parts of UK.

That GE has done nothing. Of course no one could have predicted the current situation and, for once, no UK politician is responsible for it; however, Mr Sunak's spending spree, announced with all the braggadocio of a Boris Johnson, whilst attrative sounding to many, will have to be paid for by immense additional borrowings which will be even more problematic to achieve now that UK's credit rating's been downgraded, to say nothing of the potential lending countries prioritising their own problems caused by the virus as you say (i.e. countries putting themselves before other countries).

The GE's result will not only likely be short-lived but also overtaken by current and immediate future circumstance; ifis is to have one possible lasting effect, it might well be the ultimate demise of the Labour party.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1271 on: March 31, 2020, 06:43:42 AM
 The GE changed everything. Before, the Commons was paralysed.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1272 on: March 31, 2020, 08:25:27 AM
The GE changed everything. Before, the Commons was paralysed.
The Commons (and Lords) are now more paralysed than ever, though in this instance through no obvious faults of their own.

The GE has changed nothing.

The government has now announced its intention to throw out its past decade of austerity policies and go on a massive spending spree; it did this in the Budget even before most of that had to be scrapped and replaced by what we're all being offered now, the acid test of whose effectiveness being inextricably bound up with the question as to whether other nations will be prepared to lend UK what it will want and need in order to achieve what it claims to seek to achieve; on the basis of your own observations about each country prioritising its own interests over all other countries' interests - and taken together with the fact that every nation on earth is affected by the impact and consequences of the virus - it would, I believe, be folly to take this for granted.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1273 on: April 01, 2020, 06:18:59 AM
Before the GE, Brexit was impossible, now it will happen.
If you dont think anything has changed, you are suffering from delusions.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1274 on: April 01, 2020, 07:53:24 AM
Before the GE, Brexit was impossible, now it will happen.
If you dont think anything has changed, you are suffering from delusions.
Tell us all what has changed, then, since the GE, for perhaps I've missed something (although what I have not misseds the constant references to the word "Brexit" in broadcast news bulletins since it has barely been mentioned even in passing) - and, when you do, don't forget that the party of government was so before it and indeed had been so since 2010.

No one can possibly predict with accuracy what might happen with Brexit as there are clearly other and far greater international priorities right now which have put Brexit on the back burner which - who knows? - might become its final resting place.

The UK government and the EU authorities each have their hands tied for the foreseeable future and there's nothing that they or anyone else can do about that.

There seems to be a fair amount of criticism of the UK government for its handling of the COVID-19 crisis to date; of course it's easy to blame a government for anything for the sake of it, but it does seem as though UK has so far addressed this less effectively, efficiently and beneficially than have some other countries, especially Germany which has had some 2½ times the number of reported cases yet only just over one-third the number of deaths from it.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1275 on: April 02, 2020, 06:07:25 AM
I have explained above what has changed if you could be bothered to read it.
Please do not use the virus to score political points. It is not a competition with a league table.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1276 on: April 02, 2020, 08:19:32 AM
I have explained above what has changed if you could be bothered to read it.
I've read all that you've written (as indeed I always do) but do not believe that you have provided a credible explanation.

Please do not use the virus to score political points. It is not a competition with a league table.
Indeed it isn't and I'm doing nothing of the kind, nor do I need to - nor, indeed, would that even be possible, since it is not a political issue even though of course it impacts heavily upon politicians, their conduct and their decisions.

Most governmental activity in UK and EU has had to be put on ice during the currency of the virus whose ultimate legacy - assuming that its end will be reached - will likely continue to impact upon many aspects of life thereafter for a very long time indeed, including politics, employment / self-employment, general economics et al and not excluding Brexit negotiations.

Are you seeking to pretend that these negotiations are currently proceeding as planned behind closed doors despite the virus? If so, it's not being reported; indeed, Brexit is hardly being mentioned now.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1277 on: April 02, 2020, 11:25:14 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/31/italy-demands-solidarity-germany-coronavirus-crisis-rifts-deepen/
Well said Italy.
The virus could spell the end of this failed experiment
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1278 on: April 02, 2020, 12:41:47 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/31/italy-demands-solidarity-germany-coronavirus-crisis-rifts-deepen/
Well said Italy.
The virus could spell the end of this failed experiment
It is not advisable to "use the virus to score political points"..."it is not a competition with a league table"; also sprach Professor Thalbergmad, so it must be right!

Seriously, though, it's inevitable that the ways in which each country, EU or otherwise, deal with the pandemic vary for many different reasons; as such, it's unsurprising that it generates some animosity /  jealousy / differences of opinion between countries.

Whilst it's bound to place strains on every country, the likelihood that it will blow EU apart and prevent its return to pre-viral normality is about as great as that of it bringing about the permanent disintegration of the United States of America, China or India.

One thing that such disagreements and differences of emphasis between certain EU nations over this crisis reveal is that a federal "United States of Europe" remains as distant a prospect as ever, despite your evident fears for its imminent creation.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1279 on: April 03, 2020, 06:17:42 AM
 I am not trying to score political points, as i am not attacking any one political party, i am simply highlighting how angry other Countries are at the almost zero response to the virus from the EU.
If nation states are left to fend for themselves, the EU becomes irrelevant and unnecessary.
It simply soakes up billions of pounds that could be better spent by the Countries that are forced into contributing.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1280 on: April 03, 2020, 08:03:56 AM
I am not trying to score political points, as i am not attacking any one political party, i am simply highlighting how angry other Countries are at the almost zero response to the virus from the EU.
If nation states are left to fend for themselves, the EU becomes irrelevant and unnecessary.
It simply soakes up billions of pounds that could be better spent by the Countries that are forced into contributing.
And I sympathise with that; the problem (at least in part) here is that EU is NOT an United States and so its input as an organisation will be proportionate to its powers over individual member states and the limitations thereof. If EU was an United States, far more would be expected of it in this regard.

That said, EU is not all about whether or not it co-ordinates responses to and actions in respect of the virus; its existence has its origins in many other things besides pandemics, especially since there have been so few during its existance and the one that we're facing is in any event global rather than merely EU-wide.

Speaking of unity within EU (though not only virus related), https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hungary-orban-coronavirus-europe-eu-fidesz-a9441946.html?fbclid=IwAR2ZYLtFEQjLmhWtJ6C6fpFLhRg_KGwfvBwOnl_RtNxi6BfPSp1bGVvb8fA ...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1281 on: April 04, 2020, 05:45:17 AM
The EU is gutless and powerless. It has done and will do nothing to stop Orban and if doubt if he cares if Hungary are thrown out.
The only thing the EU are any good at is extorting and wasting billions.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1282 on: April 04, 2020, 11:47:32 AM
The EU is gutless and powerless.
To do what in particular? I, too, would have hoped for something more constructive EU-wide from it on the virus than has so far happened, but then I'd likewise have hoped that UK had been quicker off the mark in sourcing and obtaining the testing kits that are needed before this became a problem because of international demand.

Let it be remembered that EU is not a country; it is a group of nations...

It has done and will do nothing to stop Orban and if doubt if he cares if Hungary are thrown out.
True but, as EU is not an United States, it not only does not but also should not have the power to oust him; I hold no brief for Johnson but would be horrified should EU have tried to throw him out!

No member state has yet been thrown out of EU; were that to happen, it would make EU history. UK's the only one ever to have announced its wish to depart and even the proceeses for that are far from over yet.

I think it highly unlikely that EU throws Hungary out and, so far, at least, Hungary has not given notice of a desire to leave.

The only thing the EU are any good at is extorting and wasting billions.
No more than UK is now desperately trying to borrow billions, first to fund its recent Budget proposals and second to add to the cost of these to fund its virus policy proposals; I wish it luck with both of those...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1283 on: April 05, 2020, 06:10:18 AM
They are worthwhile causes. Handing over billions to the EU is a waste.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1284 on: April 05, 2020, 06:54:26 AM
They are worthwhile causes. Handing over billions to the EU is a waste.
They might be worthwhile causes in principle but if other mnations won't lend enough then UK will find itself in trouble.

My concern with the future of EU is tht, if ultimately it has none, what will become of all of those individual nations and their reliationships with one another and with the rest of the world; remember WWII?...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1285 on: April 06, 2020, 06:34:50 AM
You are too intelligent to use that pathetic scare story. Dont forget to mention what happens when the Russians invade.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1286 on: April 06, 2020, 07:41:29 AM
You are too intelligent to use that pathetic scare story.
It's not a "scare story", nor indeed can I be said to regard it as one, since I have not even suggested what might happen in such circumstances (unsurprisingly, since no one can be sure in advance as to how a scenario might play out).

Dont forget to mention what happens when the Russians invade.
Oh, I don't, believe me - although I am of the view that, given the relatively parlous state of the Russian economy (invasion capability being dependent in part upon the success and stability of invaders' economies), the likelihood of a Chinese one is considerably greater; after all, China is already well on the way to owning large slices of central Africa...

That said, I remain curious to know if you harbour a rooted objection to all unions of states (however loose) similar to that which you do towards EU? I'm thinking in particular not only of USA (which is constituted as a single nation) but also of other groups that are not, such as NATO (30 member states), G7 (7 member states), G20 (20 member states), Council of Europe (47 member states including all EU ones), not to mention the UN (193 member states). What's your take on this?

The reason that I ask is not only to ascertain whether you view EU differently to the others (and, if so, on what grounds and for what reasons) but also with a view to gaining some understanding of your views on the rationale for and aims and motives behind the foundation of each of those groups of nations.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline gep

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1287 on: April 06, 2020, 02:48:53 PM
I do think there is a rather big stretch between the "EU" as overlording entity, and nations within Europe working together for the better of each. I do think that how the EU started was pretty much the latter, but what it has become, when looking at "Brussels" an separate entity that is undemocratic (if not indeed anti-democratic, as parties being critical about how the EU is run are marginalised or, if not possible, actually demonised). Laws enforced in, for ex., The Netherlands, are for 90+% voted for by governments not chosen by the Dutch people. And I really do not like Germany, France or Italy having a bigger say in what happens here than the Dutch populace itself. Where the countries of Europe have proved to be able to work together in the past, the attachment of countries nowhere near ready for attachment has resulted in a quagmire of political wrangling and inadequacy; see how the EU works the corona-crisis.

The EU was a good idea when it was about cooperation and coordination. It worked as long as is consisted of countries pretty much aligned in things like politics and economics. But the idealism of 'One Europe' has prevailed over the reality of Europe being several 'blocks' that cannot be put together in one working machine. What is has become is a playground for the power-hungry; the more countries the top in Brussels has to lord over, the bigger the power that top has. As it is run now, the EU will be the undoing of Europe; if it will be run as it is run now, "EU" will become the biggest enemy Europe has faced. You can bring people together, but you cannot force them together, for when the 'mass' becomes critical, it will explode. The last effort to bring Europe under one government was started in 1938. The EU after WW2 was set up to prevent such happening again. But cooperation is being turned in coercion (again), because the EU is increasingly run by people who do not seek the betterment of all European nations and people, but the increase of power for themselves. Power will attract those who desire power. Once power is in the hands of those, they will make sure that power stays in their hands. At whatever means. Those means starting with the gradual degrading and ultimate abolishment of democracy, and the obscuring of the machinations of those in power by way of curtailing free investigation (by way of, for ex., free press), and installing a one-party political system in which any and all parties critical about the political system are marginalised and ultimately abolished. Tell me, how much of a true opposition is there in the EU Parliament (like any true democratic country invariably has), to keep a critical tag on the workings of the parliament? 

If Europe is to be(come) a success in the long run, the people of it need to see there is a functioning (hence transparent) system to put people in places of power, and to take them from these places if they abuse power. That system is failing in Europa. If Europe is to have a successful future, it will need to become transparent again, it will need to get the trust of the people of it back again. In short, it will need to give the power to steer it back to the people of Europe again. Next month, there will be the day when we will remember what it cost 75 years ago when such did not happen.
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1288 on: April 06, 2020, 03:02:42 PM
I do think there is a rather big stretch between the "EU" as overlording entity, and nations within Europe working together for the better of each. I do think that how the EU started was pretty much the latter, but what it has become, when looking at "Brussels" an separate entity that is undemocratic (if not indeed anti-democratic, as parties being critical about how the EU is run are marginalised or, if not possible, actually demonised).
I won't quote your entire post here for reasons of space but I am in broad agreement with what you write; this is why the notion of a "federal" EU - a kind of "United States of Europe" (or, more properly, an United States of Western Europe) is something with which I do not agree in principle and which I doubt will ever actually happen. Yes, EU has almost certainly assumed more power than it should but it's up to all of its constituent nations to ensure curtailment of this and make EU as you describe its original intent, which is what it should be. A faceless and overbearing bureaucratic force that bears down upon the lawmaking of its members states is not what was originally intended; the actual intent at the outset of its predecessor was very sensible, especially in the aftermath of WWII.

I cannot speak for Thal (and have asked him what he thinks about other groupings of states in order better to understand where he's coming from on this), but co-ordination and co-operation is the proper name of the game and that's how it should be, which is why, although I advocated (and still do advocate) UK's continued EU membership, I do not see that it - or indeed any other EU member state - should be ridden roughshod over by EU and it doesn't have to be that way. I am convinced that EU will be a poorer organisation without UK and this might well end up haveing a negative impact upon the remaining member states.

Bst,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline gep

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1289 on: April 06, 2020, 04:12:52 PM
the actual intent at the outset of its predecessor was very sensible, especially in the aftermath of WWII.
Indeed it was, as it was set up as a format for cooperation; the very kernel of it was Benelux, a cooperative of Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxemburg. Had it grown with that intent at the fore, it could certainly have become a bigger entity, with independent yet interdependent states who are (roughly) aligned enough to streamline matters between them. Such an entity could have supported such not-yet-ready-members by helping them get as streamlined. What did happen was, by way of trying to get Eastern-Europe countries out of Russia (read: Putin's) range of influence, add-on these Eastern-Europe countries when they were - and are - nowhere near on a level to be added on. They remain olichargies, run by a bunch of corrupt nomenclatura (pretty much the same clutch as ran those countries when they were still in the East Block). Add to that a few southern countries where corruption, disorganisation and lack of responsibility runs rife (Italy) and some who are ever only interested in what can be benificial to them (France), and you get a dis-unity. Orban has turned Hungary into a one-man dictatorship (and the EU should be very quick with deciding if they want to keep Hungary on the inside!). Italy was bankrupt, but has managed to nevertheless increase its national debt to 133% BNP and now corona hits can get money nowhere to help its economy so demands it from countries such as mine (which has decreased its national debt after te credit crunch). Whatever France is up to nobody knows, but it will be about France and only about France.

Quote
co-ordination and co-operation is the proper name of the game and that's how it should be, which is why, although I advocated (and still do advocate) UK's continued EU membership, I do not see that it - or indeed any other EU member state - should be ridden roughshod over by EU and it doesn't have to be that way. I am convinced that EU will be a poorer organisation without UK and this might well end up haveing a negative impact upon the remaining member states.

Bst,

Alistair
Fully agreed here; it is how it should be, and it was such. Indeed for that reason already (there are more, but they are related) I do deplore the leaving of UK, for I know what, and I have no hesitation in saying so, the better part of Europe loses by it, as compared with what is remains stuck with; the leaving of UK will only increase the influence of the Eastern Block countries, France and Italy, and not to the advance of North and North-Western Europe.
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1290 on: April 06, 2020, 04:33:04 PM
Agreed, gep - and I fear that, should UK sever its connections with EU on a permanent basis, matters within EU will worsen...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2934
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1291 on: April 06, 2020, 04:47:16 PM
The EU has the capacity to be a great institution, fostering togetherness, peace and trade amongst multiple nations, but unfortunately one of the primary facets of bureaucracy is that it fosters.. more bureaucracy.

I'm very critical of the ways in which it's tried to push homogeneity across the member states; I don't think you get different people, with differing cultural histories and temperaments, to get on by enforcing conformity. All of us here are largely European within our musical preferences, and we're all fine with that, but we didn't arrive at that position through diktats as to what we should like.

(although: * insert Schumann piano concerto joke here *)  :)
My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
Info and samples from my first commercial album - https://youtu.be/IlRtSyPAVNU
My SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/andrew-wright-35

Offline gep

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1292 on: April 06, 2020, 04:55:51 PM
The EU has the capacity to be a great institution, fostering togetherness, peace and trade amongst multiple nations, but unfortunately one of the primary facets of bureaucracy is that it fosters.. more bureaucracy.

I'm very critical of the ways in which it's tried to push homogeneity across the member states; I don't think you get different people, with differing cultural histories and temperaments, to get on by enforcing conformity. All of us here are largely European within our musical preferences, and we're all fine with that, but we didn't arrive at that position through diktats as to what we should like.

(although: * insert Schumann piano concerto joke here *)  :)
Well put. The various ways in which civilised nation work need not be identical, as long as they adhere to certain basics (such a fundamental human rights); different points of view can be an asset, as nobody is guaranteed to be right. Opinions must differ in order to get sensible argumentation. What is not going to work is to try make everything equal when everything is not equal. It has the same outcome as making everybody else responsible, but not you.

What bureaucracy wants is that everybody is identical so can be controlled to the max. EU bureaucracy increasingly reminds me of Terry Pratchett’s Auditors of Reality. That man was a visionary in the sense that he could very well see what human reality really is.
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline gep

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1293 on: April 06, 2020, 04:59:52 PM
Agreed, gep - and I fear that, should UK sever its connections with EU on a permanent basis, matters within EU will worsen...

Best,

Alistair
Not just within the EU, I fear, exactly because matters within the EU will worsen. And a worse-off EU is bad news for the UK. And without UK, EU will lose one of its anchors. And UK and EU are interdependent, whether they want to or not. The question is, of course: should UK remain within the EU for the benefit of the EU; if the EU is worse off without the UK, what does that say about the EU?
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1294 on: April 06, 2020, 07:53:34 PM
Not just within the EU, I fear, exactly because matters within the EU will worsen. And a worse-off EU is bad news for the UK. And without UK, EU will lose one of its anchors. And UK and EU are interdependent, whether they want to or not. The question is, of course: should UK remain within the EU for the benefit of the EU; if the EU is worse off without the UK, what does that say about the EU?
Indeed - this faux notion that x can do without y is a dangerous one regardless of who "x" and "y" might be...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1295 on: April 07, 2020, 04:41:37 PM
I an unqualified to vouch for the veracity or otherwise of
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_603?fbclid=IwAR0E0oH1GPozmQBiWI77V2lLXDslmwjhVzBkV2BPPEdrzA2AxEAS2LJyJ5Q but it's interesting if nothing else...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1296 on: April 08, 2020, 06:15:28 AM
We shouldnt be in a position where the EU needs to approve anything.
Thats why millions want to leave.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1297 on: April 08, 2020, 01:45:18 PM
We shouldnt be in a position where the EU needs to approve anything.
Thats why millions want to leave.
Were that properly to be the case, why would you so deplore the laxity of EU's approach to the virus? You can't have it both ways!

Frankly, I, too, would have expected more from EU on this and, now that its shortcomings in direction on it appear to be exposing acrimonious differences of opinion between certain of its member states (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52200719 ), it might seem unwise wholly to discount the Spanish PM's fear that it could collapse as a consequence  (and, whilst I doubt that it would do so in other circumstances, we are all having to face these ones). But just imagine if Sr Sánchez proves to be right; if EU did indeed fall apart over this, the present acrimony between its then ex-member states would hardly disappear thereafter; indeed, it would almost certainly become considerably worse.

I note, on that subject, that you have yet to respond with your more general view on groupings of states such as those that I mentioned in a previous post...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16730
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1298 on: April 10, 2020, 07:19:26 AM
The good old EU comes up with too little too late.
Wankers.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12144
Re: brexit?!!?
Reply #1299 on: April 10, 2020, 09:29:28 AM
The good old EU comes up with too little too late.
Wankers.
I agree that a rescue package ought to have been put together far sooner; that said, remember that EU is not a country and that its member states' needs at this time vary widely. Moreover, if EU didn't exist, it wouldn't be there to put together such a rescue package in any case!

I see that the Italian PM's now following suit with the Spanish one in expressing fear of the risk of EU's demise over this so perhaps said rescue package is also designed to suppress such fears as well as do what it seems to be intended to do.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert