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Topic: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........  (Read 1720 times)

Offline beginapiana

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I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
on: July 08, 2016, 03:51:39 PM
Hello  (new to the forum)
   I have been studying piano chords on my own using online info for a couple of months.  I can read music.
   I am a rank beginner at really attempting to understand the relationships of scales, key, chords and notes for arranging one's own pieces.

So, my very first question is:  is  this a home for me or should I be somewhere else.  I know many of you are very advanced.

Second, the reason I was even looking for a forum was for the following question.  I was playing chords  on the Dmaj scale and trying to apply 1st and 2nd inversions for the left hand while playing with melody notes. (slowly as a beginner)  With the 1st inversion of the Gmaj chord, the question arose as to the name of that triad on a different scale.  It appears to be a BminAug. (??? if there is such)

Immediately, the question of reading chords differently in different scales or keys came to mind.   I am sure my notation is awkward.   So, when playing in the the 1st inversion of Gmaj it is the same as Bmin Aug (6th or some such).  But, it is the basic ramifications of what this means in music and its application that I wanted to know more about.

I am sure anyone responding will have to first correct some of my statements, but hopefully, the underlying question remains valid.

Please feel free to simply point me to a link to another discussion or writing on the topic.

Thank you.

Offline wage

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #1 on: July 08, 2016, 07:37:23 PM
A G major chord is always a G major chord, no matter what key or inversion you are in. Even if you use inversions, the chord will always consist of the same notes as the original chord (here GBD), which is always G major. You might be thinking about diatonic chords (written in roman numbers), for example: the G major triad is a I chord in G major, a III in E minor, V in C major and so on.

For more information, check out the chord section of musictheory.net.

Offline beginapiana

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #2 on: July 08, 2016, 10:00:04 PM
Thank you wage,

 My question was more simple than you may have imagined.   I did wonder if the B  D portion of the G chord inversion was also the first two notes of some variation a B minor augmented chord of some hue unknown to me.   (In my initial post I made the mistake of referring to an A minor variation.  I did mean Bm).

So,  B  D  G  does not play a role in any variation of any Bm chord which would begin with B  D.  I guess any Bm variation would technically require the 5th note which is the F#. 

That is very helpful for me to know as I move forward.   So, if no chords are duplicated or known by more than one name, the piano is an even more incredibly interesting instrument than I first imagined....and maybe more demanding.

thanks

Thanks.   

Offline 109natsu

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #3 on: July 09, 2016, 12:15:44 AM
Hi beginapiana.

I am new too. I am trying to figure out what's going on here...
I am pretty sure that this is a forum for all pianists, not just advanced people.

As far as theory goes...
I think it is wonderful that you are studying theory from such an early level. Most students HATE theory. (I am Switzerland I am neutral)

Let's make it clear.

G major triad (G) = G, B, D
G major first inversion chord (G6) = B, D, G

B minor triad (B) = B, D, F#

There is no such thing as a B minor augmented chord. It's just called B augmented.

B augmented triad (B+) = B, D#, F#.

Basically, augmented chords just have major third intervals between each note. Therefore, G major in first inversion and B augmented are two completely different things.

Okay now to the topic of two chords having the same notes...

It is very likely that two chords share notes. (ex. G major and B minor) However, the third note is
always different in this case. (unless you get to diminished seventh chords and augmented chords which you will learn later.)

Example of augmented chords having the same notes:
G augmented triad (G+) = G, B, D#
B augmented triad (B+) = B, D#, FX (F double-sharp is the same thing as G, because you go up one whole step)

But you don't need to worry about it for now.

Happy practicing!

*-*

Natsu Ozawa
Bloomington, IN

Offline keypeg

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #4 on: July 10, 2016, 10:14:50 PM
Just a quick correction here:
Quote
G major triad (G) = G, B, D
G major first inversion chord (G6) G/B = B, D, G
You are thinking of Roman Numerals were I6 = first inversion, I64 = 2nd inversion

In letter names, GBD is simply called G.  In a first inversion B is in the bass, so it's called G/B.  In a 2nd inversion D is in the bass so it's called G/D.  I.e. the last letter tells you which note is in the bass.

G6 refers to an entirely different chord.

This is only about nomenclature.  :)

Offline keypeg

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #5 on: July 10, 2016, 10:49:00 PM
Beginapiano - first welcome to PS.
I think I got your logic which is wrong but would go something like this:
B D# F# = B (major)
B D# Fx = Baug, and then you're equating Fx = G; G/B = B D G = B D Fx, and you're seeing that Fx, and you're seeing that BDF# = Bm, while you're seeing the Fx = G thing.  It's complicated thinking and you're off track.

The first part of your confusion is because you are mixing together scales and chords.  This isn't your fault because they are often introduced together.  Typically we get a C major scale with the I ii iii IV V etc. chords (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim) which are the chords we derive from that scale when we only use the notes belonging to the scale.  This helps for later harmony theory, but it mixes two things together.

Triads, by themselves, always seen in root position:
major = *(M3)*(m3)* i.e. C(M3)E(m3)G ... B(M3)D#(m3)F#, Eb(M3)G(m3)Bb.  There is a P5 between the outer notes (CG, BF#, Eb Bb) and this is super important, because of the "tritone" which is a very unstable sound that plays a huge role in music, and that is a diminished 5th or augmented 4th (same tones).

If you play a major triad in any inversion, it will still have the same quality of sound.  Or put another way, if you play CEG and CEbG, or CEG and GBbD you will hear that minor has a different quality of sound.  The "happy" of major and "sad" of minor remains regardless of inversion.  That is its character or personality.
 
These chords have nothing to do with any key.  Forget about keys.  You will find CEG as I in the key of C major, IV in the key of G major, and V in the key of F major.  It is what it is, independently.
----------
The minor triad goes *(m3)*(M3)*, and there is a major 5th between the top and bottom notes in root position as well.  It has its own character and personality like the major chord, as already described, regardless of inversion.
----------
The diminished triad goes *(m3)*(m3)* B(m3)D(m3)F -- and there is a diminished 5th from top to bottom note which is the tritone.  The tritone is unstable and "wants to resolve".   There is a period of history where the tritone was actually outlawed as unholy!  It has its own character too.  In regards to the dim5 - BF; if you put the F on the bottom FB then you get an aug4, which has exactly the same quality as an interval, and is the same number of semitones apart.  No other interval does that.
---------
The augmented triad goes *(M3)*(M3)* and it does not exist in the notes of diatonic music.  If you raise the 5th of a major triad you get an augmented triad.  If you invert an augmented triad you keep the interval of an M3 between all the notes, which is one of its unique features.
CEG => CEG# gives us an augmented triad. 
The C G# is an aug5.  But if you respelled it as C Ab you would get an interval of a minor 6th.  So let's play with this.  Let's respell CEG# as CEAb.  You would still have an augmented chord and you might decide to call it Abaug instead of  Caug

Let's play with your idea of "minor augmented" by lowering the middle note.  C Eb G# ... a triad with both flat and sharp looks odd so let's respell it: C Eb Ab.  This is nothing more than Ab/C. (1st inversion Ab triad).

I think I'll go to your original question which caused you mischief about G/D in the key of D major separately.

Offline keypeg

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #6 on: July 10, 2016, 10:55:35 PM
Going to this:
Quote
Second, the reason I was even looking for a forum was for the following question.  I was playing chords  on the Dmaj scale and trying to apply 1st and 2nd inversions for the left hand while playing with melody notes. (slowly as a beginner)  With the 1st inversion of the Gmaj chord, the question arose as to the name of that triad on a different scale.  It appears to be a BminAug. (Huh if there is such)
The chords in the key of C major are:
I D F# A
ii E G B
iii F# A C#
IV G B D
V A C# E
vi B D F
viio C# E G

So the G major chord exists in this key.  1st inversion = B D G and that is simply a major triad in first inversion.  It still has the same character of its "major" sound regardless of inversion.

Offline 109natsu

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #7 on: July 10, 2016, 11:54:37 PM
Just a quick correction here:You are thinking of Roman Numerals were I6 = first inversion, I64 = 2nd inversion

In letter names, GBD is simply called G.  In a first inversion B is in the bass, so it's called G/B.  In a 2nd inversion D is in the bass so it's called G/D.  I.e. the last letter tells you which note is in the bass.

G6 refers to an entirely different chord.

This is only about nomenclature.  :)

Hmm that's weird... we have different teachers, so the methods might vary.
But you are right about I6

Beginapiano - first welcome to PS.
I think I got your logic which is wrong but would go something like this:
B D# F# = B (major)
B D# Fx = Baug, and then you're equating Fx = G; G/B = B D G = B D Fx, and you're seeing that Fx, and you're seeing that BDF# = Bm, while you're seeing the Fx = G thing.  It's complicated thinking and you're off track.

The first part of your confusion is because you are mixing together scales and chords.  This isn't your fault because they are often introduced together.  Typically we get a C major scale with the I ii iii IV V etc. chords (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim) which are the chords we derive from that scale when we only use the notes belonging to the scale.  This helps for later harmony theory, but it mixes two things together.

Triads, by themselves, always seen in root position:
major = *(M3)*(m3)* i.e. C(M3)E(m3)G ... B(M3)D#(m3)F#, Eb(M3)G(m3)Bb.  There is a P5 between the outer notes (CG, BF#, Eb Bb) and this is super important, because of the "tritone" which is a very unstable sound that plays a huge role in music, and that is a diminished 5th or augmented 4th (same tones).

If you play a major triad in any inversion, it will still have the same quality of sound.  Or put another way, if you play CEG and CEbG, or CEG and GBbD you will hear that minor has a different quality of sound.  The "happy" of major and "sad" of minor remains regardless of inversion.  That is its character or personality.
 
These chords have nothing to do with any key.  Forget about keys.  You will find CEG as I in the key of C major, IV in the key of G major, and V in the key of F major.  It is what it is, independently.
----------
The minor triad goes *(m3)*(M3)*, and there is a major 5th between the top and bottom notes in root position as well.  It has its own character and personality like the major chord, as already described, regardless of inversion.
----------
The diminished triad goes *(m3)*(m3)* B(m3)D(m3)F -- and there is a diminished 5th from top to bottom note which is the tritone.  The tritone is unstable and "wants to resolve".   There is a period of history where the tritone was actually outlawed as unholy!  It has its own character too.  In regards to the dim5 - BF; if you put the F on the bottom FB then you get an aug4, which has exactly the same quality as an interval, and is the same number of semitones apart.  No other interval does that.
---------
The augmented triad goes *(M3)*(M3)* and it does not exist in the notes of diatonic music.  If you raise the 5th of a major triad you get an augmented triad.  If you invert an augmented triad you keep the interval of an M3 between all the notes, which is one of its unique features.
CEG => CEG# gives us an augmented triad. 
The C G# is an aug5.  But if you respelled it as C Ab you would get an interval of a minor 6th.  So let's play with this.  Let's respell CEG# as CEAb.  You would still have an augmented chord and you might decide to call it Abaug instead of  Caug

Let's play with your idea of "minor augmented" by lowering the middle note.  C Eb G# ... a triad with both flat and sharp looks odd so let's respell it: C Eb Ab.  This is nothing more than Ab/C. (1st inversion Ab triad).

I think I'll go to your original question which caused you mischief about G/D in the key of D major separately.

I think you have just made things really confusing for a beginner. No offense, but I took a whole wooping five minutes to read that :P

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #8 on: July 11, 2016, 12:53:47 AM
 So, if no chords are duplicated or known by more than one name, the piano is an even more incredibly interesting instrument than I first imagined....and maybe more demanding.




It can be a bit more complicated than that.  Some chords can be described by different names.
For example: GM6 has the same notes as Em7..  C aug.  has the same notes as G#aug or E aug.
This depends on the context of harmonic movement and the bass note employed, but you needn't concern about that  now…
4'33"

Offline keypeg

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Re: I am a complete beginner. Will I find...........
Reply #9 on: July 11, 2016, 03:21:47 AM
I think you have just made things really confusing for a beginner. No offense, but I took a whole wooping five minutes to read that
The problem is when beginners try to absorb a whole bunch of information at once and get it all mixed together.  Then you have to sort out all that stuff.  When I had to get at things I sometimes was given that much information too.  I'd spend a couple of days or weeks with it rather than 5 minutes.  ;)  Internet forums aren't the best place for learning things in any case.
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

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