Hidden clues in Beethoven's music?

[marijn1999]

Hi guys,

Yesterday I listened to Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto and played through his 5th Piano Sonata. I've known these works for quite some years but yesterday all the sudden I noticed two things:

In bars 308-309 from the first movement of the Fourth Piano Concerto, the piano plays through a theme the orchestra is playing which is introduced already in bar 30 or something. The figure the right hand is playing in these bars has nothing to do really with any motivic material the movement introduced earlier. However, some twelve years earlier Beethoven composed the Op. 1 trios. The first movement of the second trio of this set has a principal theme that uses this very motive. This trio is in G major, just like the concerto.

And the other one. Did anyone notice that bars 54-55 from the last movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 5 are strikingly resemblant to bars 25-28 from the first movement of his Symphony No. 5?

Anyone, what I'm asking is, do you guys think he purposely or at the least consciously did these kind of things or do you think these things just happen coincidentally?

BW,
Marijn

[109natsu]

Hi Marjin,

I don't get the part about the concerto and the trio, but I get the part about the sonata and the symphony.

Ummmm..... I am not a music researcher, but I think it is possible that he liked the same theme and used it over again. So I am kind of leaned towards the "consciously done" side, I guess.

For everyone to take a look at, I have attached the photos of the parts he is mentioning.
The link for the trio is here:
https://www.imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Trio_in_G_major,_Op.1_No.2_(Beethoven,_Ludwig_van)

Sonata is by the Schenker Edition, reprinted by Dover Publications. (S4-001)
Symphony is by Dover Publications. (S4-002)
Concerto is by Ernst Eulenburg Publications. (S4-003)

Best,
Natsu

[piulento]

I noticed the similarity between the symphony and the sonata too. This is really cool, and I'm pretty sure he did this on puropse. I guess he liked the theme and liked the idea of having a "private joke" with his listeners.
I used to look for these sorts of things all the time - Beethoven really likes doing this. I actually made a list of places where this happens a few years ago but I can't find it and can't seem to remember what pieces were in it.
Anyway, a lot of other composers do these sorts of things too, sometimes in a more obvious way and sometimes more subtly. It's annoying because I can't bring any examples to mind right now, but I remember I used to find a lot of leitmotif repetitions in Chopin's different works.

[marijn1999]

Hi Marjin,

I don't get the part about the concerto and the trio, but I get the part about the sonata and the symphony.

Ummmm..... I am not a music researcher, but I think it is possible that he liked the same theme and used it over again. So I am kind of leaned towards the "consciously done" side, I guess.

For everyone to take a look at, I have attached the photos of the parts he is mentioning.
The link for the trio is here:
https://www.imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Trio_in_G_major,_Op.1_No.2_(Beethoven,_Ludwig_van)

Sonata is by the Schenker Edition, reprinted by Dover Publications. (S4-001)
Symphony is by Dover Publications. (S4-002)
Concerto is by Ernst Eulenburg Publications. (S4-003)

Best,
Natsu

Thanks for putting in the links for me. I forgot to do that. And as for the trio, look at the beginning of the allegro vivace which starts right after the adagio introduction. At the end of the first bar. That's the figure I'm talking about.

BW,
Marijn

[marijn1999]

I noticed the similarity between the symphony and the sonata too. This is really cool, and I'm pretty sure he did this on puropse. I guess he liked the theme and liked the idea of having a "private joke" with his listeners.
I used to look for these sorts of things all the time - Beethoven really likes doing this. I actually made a list of places where this happens a few years ago but I can't find it and can't seem to remember what pieces were in it.
Anyway, a lot of other composers do these sorts of things too, sometimes in a more obvious way and sometimes more subtly. It's annoying because I can't bring any examples to mind right now, but I remember I used to find a lot of leitmotif repetitions in Chopin's different works.

I'll go find out some more and post them here. I also think it were some kind of musical jokes put together for the more intellectual listener of Beethoven's day.

[georgey]

I heard the Beethoven Choral Fantasy for the first time a couple years ago and was amazed when toward the end of the work, the famous theme of the last mvt of the 9th symphony appeared almost note for note.  The 9th symphony was written maybe 15 years after the Choral fantasy.

The Choral fantasy was the on a CD included with my BBC magazine.  I just put it in my car CD player and started listening.  I think I later read in the liner notes that he wrote the work in a matter of only a few days.  The beginning of the Choral fantasy sounds exactly how I would imagine Beethoven would improvise at the piano (except maybe a little worse than expected when I think about it some more).