Question about hand/finger position when playing

[crimsonchin]

Hi there,

Feel a bit set back. Have been playing from start quite fanatically over the last 15 months. Switched to a new teacher - she's a locally famous pianist, from Russsssia. She tells me my technique is fucked up, I do not use the weight of my arms properly to create the sound, some problems with my posture, most of these things I agree with and the corrections make sense.

One of the larger corrections she proposes is that in the hand position when my finger is down on a key, is that the other fingers should be raised above the other keys rather then resting on them. Only with really fast work should I allow my other fingers to remain in contact with the surface. This is quite  difficult for me, and stretches and tires my forearm muscles, as I have learned this position:


Are there several approaches to this? Should I just stick with what feels right?

[outin]

How odd... The most common advice is that one should relax the other fingers  and they can be resting on the keys. Then again I've never been able to play like that because it takes an effort and flairs up my wrist problems if I try to keep them down all the time. My teacher has never complained about that in my playing. When I look at pianists it seems some do and some don't and I think this has to do with hand shape and size as well as technique. I have small hands that won't even cover 5 white keys if completely relaxed.

Does the teacher speak perfect English? Is it possible that there's a misunderstanding here? Maybe she is referrig to something else, like what your fingers do before playing the notes (too passive fingers) or having less curved fingers?

[adodd81802]

I'm thinking about it (without being at a piano) mine are raised, slightly above the keys when one or more fingers go down.

As you mentioned she pointed out you are not using any arm weight so maybe that feeling in your forearm is activation of muscles you're currently not using.

I do not raise them high so you should not feel tension and I am thinking about doing a 5-finger run C-G all fingers not playing keys are not touching keys and raised maybe 3/4 millimeters from the keys, sometimes a little more if playing faster or harder, but depends on the passage.

I think ultimately you should consider the fact that she's a famous (on some level) pianist and you're... not

Even if you don't want to consider her words gospel, it would be an educated decision to at least give the idea a try.

[vaniii]

...

I think ultimately you should consider the fact that she's a famous (on some level) pianist and you're... not

Even if you don't want to consider her words gospel, it would be an educated decision to at least give the idea a try.

This.

[outin]

Probably the problem here is that the student does not understand what the teacher means so cannot follow the advice correctly. No matter how accomplished the teacher, it helps little if he/she cannot explain well enough for the (relative) beginner to understand.

[brogers70]

I think you need to trust your teacher. If your technique is not good, then what "just feels right" to you is not a good guide. I takes time to fix an incorrect technique. Many of the things she tells you will be tools to readjust your technique, not necessarily the way you will actually play when things are finally sorted out. So if you take one of those things, like the finger position issue, in isolation and ask a bunch of random people here about it, sure, there'll be plenty to pop up and say, nonsense, I don't play with my inactive fingers lifted high. But for whatever reason, in your case, your teacher may be telling you to do that as a step to fixing whatever problem she sees. Trust your teacher, follow her directions carefully, and stick with it for 3-6 months. If you don't see a useful change in your technique after that time, then talk to her about it, and if you get no satisfaction, think about switching. But first you have to give it some time.

[kuska]

I'm no expert however I think now that there are different ways to do the same thing correctly. So far I had 6 teachers (or people who instructed me) and they all were different and play differently. This doesn't mean any of them played  not correctly. They just had different approach. Teachers just teach how they personally play and think things to be correct. It would be impossible to teach otherwise.

The most dangerous thing (imo) might be mixing these ways together. This doesn't have to be true, though.
 

If you trust your teacher just try to follow her advice. At the end you'll see what happens and return (or not) to the old way. It;s not true you can't undo it once you learn it. It's just a matter of your mind's state.

[indianajo]

I don't rest my fingers on the keys. I move my hands around sideways enough, if I did so it would wrench the fingers sideways against the black keys.  
You could only rest fingers on the keys on baby repretoire in the home position.  On an electric organ, if you rested your fingers on the keys the notes would sound.  So grow up and prepare for an active future.
If your muscles aren't strong enough, hold your fingers out straight while watching television or otherwise wasting time.  This is an exercise you don't have to do while practicing piano.  

[outin]

I don't rest my fingers on the keys. I move my hands around sideways enough, if I did so it would wrench the fingers sideways against the black keys.  
You could only rest fingers on the keys on baby repretoire in the home position.  On an electric organ, if you rested your fingers on the keys the notes would sound.  So grow up and prepare for an active future.

Well, I don't think the fingers can literally rest on the keys on the piano either... And you are right, it would be quite inefficient to navigate the back key area if the fingers were stuck on the keys... I thought the idea of resting on the keys is just a way of saying they shoudn't be held up in the air by unnecessary tension, not to be taken literally...

[mjames]

As you mentioned she pointed out you are not using any arm weight so maybe that feeling in your forearm is activation of muscles you're currently not using.

This. I suspect she doesn't mean to make you do this all the time, only to make you familiarize yourself with the sensation. I received a similar critique about not using weight and your center of gravity for fortttissssimo. The methods are different but I suspect their goal is similar. Perhaps try and ask your teacher what her intentions are. The only way you can solve issues in communication is by communicating. You can't read her mind, so use your privege as a student and ask her questions. Teachers don't bite.


Be wary if they're Chinese though. They'll beat you with a ruler. :[

[visitor]

raise your seat to highest position and start lowering bit by bit after playing to find the lowest position that lets you use gravity and harm weight more naturally /efficiently. hard to do this if you sit too low. if bench not adjustable,  bring a phone book or firm large cushion (I have a really comfy wheel char cushion that works super well for those cheap hard benches when i have to play at a piano with no artist adjustable type bench).

if the angle from your hand across your wrist to your forearm is all 180 or less, it can be hard to 'feel' how to play with weight and gravity assistance especially if you are not use to it and have learned by 'pressing' with your fingers. 

 you can raise your seet and still keep a safe 180 degree arc from hand to forearm by increasing the angle at your elbow, but you are still higher so  you have more leverage, naturally.  this is more important with shorter arms, the 'levers' are smaller so for more needed to transfer force/weight to the hand and fingers.

our sitting position is analogous to Embouchure for playing a wind instrument it directs the driving force for creating the sound.

fyi

[crimsonchin]

Wow that's a lot of in depth responses, thank you guys all so much, this gives me a few interesting perspectives and I feel like the right thing for me to do now is to roll with the technique she is teaching me, despite it being frustrating:).

[quantum]

When learning new techniques with a new teacher, you need to stick with it for some time.  Not all elements of a complete technique picture can be taught in a single lesson.  The more bits an pieces you receive the more you will understand about the approach.  There may also be some corrective measures taken beforehand to fix bad habits, and some of these things your teacher asks you to do are only to get you on course, they are not the final go to point. 

Many of the things she tells you will be tools to readjust your technique, not necessarily the way you will actually play when things are finally sorted out.

Agreed.

[louispodesta]

Hi there,

Feel a bit set back. Have been playing from start quite fanatically over the last 15 months. Switched to a new teacher - she's a locally famous pianist, from Russsssia. She tells me my technique is fucked up, I do not use the weight of my arms properly to create the sound, some problems with my posture, most of these things I agree with and the corrections make sense.

One of the larger corrections she proposes is that in the hand position when my finger is down on a key, is that the other fingers should be raised above the other keys rather then resting on them. Only with really fast work should I allow my other fingers to remain in contact with the surface. This is quite  difficult for me, and stretches and tires my forearm muscles, as I have learned this position:


Are there several approaches to this? Should I just stick with what feels right?

Thank you for your gutsy post, especially the one word that would have gotten you kicked off of Frank Baxter's website for a whole lot less (as I have been).

1)  Playing without proper arm weight is not the proper description (in my opinion) of how to play a particular key.  More importantly, as taught to me by my coach, Dr. Thomas Mark, it is the entire body addressing the focal point of key attack (including octaves and chords).  www.pianomap.com

2)  This business of having fingers up in the air is great if you play about 13 concerts a year as does their god, Evgeny Kissin.  I personally cannot stand to watch this man perform.  His fingers are flying everywhere, and if he had to play a regular season schedule like everyone else, he would suffer serious injury.

3)  In accordance, the late Earl Wild, in his Memoir, makes a very big deal of how Egon Petri taught him as a young lad to always play from the surface of the keys.

4)  What is normally called "high stepping fingers" is a PRACTICE technique designed to free up a particular set of passages;  in no way, was is it ever meant this to be utilized in regular performance.

5)  Tobias Matthay and his aficionados the late Dorothy Taubman and her protégée Edna Golandsky taught the concept of "co-contraction."  That means it is totally unnatural for one muscle (tendon, ligament, bone) to be working against each other with one finger going one way and another going in an opposite manner.  That is why the Brahms exercises are a great way to ruin your hand (and I am an afficionado of his music).

What your teacher is asking you to do is exactly that.  Therefore, in that Russian teachers do no accept or entertain anything else other than "my way or the highway," please get yourself to a Taubman/Golandsky teacher.

If you need guidance for this, please contact me by PM.  It is not a whole body approach like that of Dr. Mark, but it beats the daylights out this traditional Russian BS!

[keypeg]

4)  What is normally called "high stepping fingers" is a PRACTICE technique designed to free up a particular set of passages;  in no way, was is it ever meant this to be utilized in regular performance.

5)  Tobias Matthay and his aficionados the late Dorothy Taubman and her protégée Edna Golandsky taught the concept of "co-contraction."  That means it is totally unnatural for one muscle (tendon, ligament, bone) to be working against each other with one finger going one way and another going in an opposite manner.  That is why the Brahms exercises are a great way to ruin your hand (and I am an afficionado of his music).

Both these points make a lot of sense to me.  This thing of fingers going in opposite manners is what I did when I was self-taught - it's a wrong feeling of "finger independence" - and one of the major ways in which my hand is learning to relax and not feel strained is by getting rid of this tendency.  Significantly, the fastest place where my technique healed was with chords, because first of all I barely ever played chords when I was self-taught decades ago, so there wasn't much of a habit to change - but secondly because as soon as you get to melodic passages, scales, and similar, there is this "opposite movement" tendency.

The other point about an exercise for a specific purpose but not for actual playing also rings a bell, because I've seen hints of this in a very few on-line lessons from people who seem trustworthy, that I happen to see in passing.  These people will actually say that it's an exercise and not the way to play.

[quantum]

Therefore, in that Russian teachers do no accept or entertain anything else other than "my way or the highway," please get yourself to a Taubman/Golandsky teacher.

An otherwise sensible post that could have done without this gross generalization.

[louispodesta]

Both these points make a lot of sense to me.  This thing of fingers going in opposite manners is what I did when I was self-taught - it's a wrong feeling of "finger independence" - and one of the major ways in which my hand is learning to relax and not feel strained is by getting rid of this tendency.  Significantly, the fastest place where my technique healed was with chords, because first of all I barely ever played chords when I was self-taught decades ago, so there wasn't much of a habit to change - but secondly because as soon as you get to melodic passages, scales, and similar, there is this "opposite movement" tendency.

The other point about an exercise for a specific purpose but not for actual playing also rings a bell, because I've seen hints of this in a very few on-line lessons from people who seem trustworthy, that I happen to see in passing.  These people will actually say that it's an exercise and not the way to play.

Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience.  It is always hard to do so, but yours is courageous.

As far as "Quantum's" post, you obviously have never experienced the psychological and physical abuse of a "Russian Method" teacher.  I am a (philosopher/feminist), so when I say that these women teachers abuse their students, then I mean that they do!

So, if "Quantum" wants to espouse that the "abusive methods of the last two centuries" justifies the means, then just please say so.  That is what these "Russian Method" fakes are doing to their students.  And, they are doing so for a whole lot of money!

I love music, and I love the piano.  Therefore, when I hear that this pedagogical garbage is still being perpetrated, it makes me sick!

[quantum]

As far as "Quantum's" post, you obviously have never experienced the psychological and physical abuse of a "Russian Method" teacher.  I am a (philosopher/feminist), so when I say that these women teachers abuse their students, then I mean that they do!

It is wise not to assume.  I have studied with many teachers both from the "Russian Method" and other methods, and cannot vouch for your opinions on the school. 

So, if "Quantum" wants to espouse that the "abusive methods of the last two centuries" justifies the means, then just please say so.  That is what these "Russian Method" fakes are doing to their students.  And, they are doing so for a whole lot of money!

If you wish to debate about pedagogical schools, fine.  Just quit trying to ignite a flame war.

Therefore, when I hear that this pedagogical garbage is still being perpetrated, it makes me sick!

You are not alone in this.

[keypeg]

In regards to the link below.  I'd like to know the impressions of others here.
Ok, by now I know that "sitting up straight" can be overdone and end up locking a person up in this "ramrod straight" position, and there is also a danger of arching your back to the point of discomfort.  But Mr. Estrin has this slump in his upper back.  There is a danger (which I caught in myself) to slump down with your upper body in order to keep your arms parallel to the floor, rather than lowering the bench to a more comfortable position.  I think in his case, this is his posture in general - but I don't know how I feel about what is demonstrated posture-wise.  Is this comfortable or invitation for future back pain as you get older?

fyi

[rmbarbosa]

I would like to introduce another point of view.
Do you play Bach with the same technique you play Mozart?
Do you play Mozart with the same technique you play Beethoven?
Do you play Chopin like you play Debussy? Or Brahms? Or...
So, why is the Russian Method of playing the best of all? To obtain sound?
Once even Wagner said that there was an "over desire" of great sound but Music is not "great sound"...
In order to play Mozart, for example, like Mozart played, finger agility is far most important than the weight of the arms and body. Mozart played with his fingers, not with his arms and body. And so did Bach...
So, there are not universal rules... universal techniques... universal methods of piano playing, I think...
You may wish to look for Horowitz... or for Glenn Gould... or for Rubinstein, who I saw play the same concert of Chopin, one day and in the next day, with two completely different ways of playing the same...   

[keypeg]

An observation - one which my present teacher first made me aware of, and I have seen since then more than once when looking at various on-line lessons:

What a teacher presents may not actually be what that teacher is doing.  Sometimes the teacher thinks she is doing it, but isn't.  At other times she may deliberately leave out other elements, in order to isolate what she is concentrating on.  When she plays, she uses all elements, but the student who diligently follows instructions won't.  One thing I have learned to do when watching such things (as advised) is "Watch when the person stops teaching and demonstrating a given technique, and plays naturally.  What does she really do?  How is it different?"  It can be quite revealing.

Some examples at random:
- A teacher is showing in isolation what is done with the fingers, or hand.  He then plays, demonstrating that thing in isolation.  If you really watch, however, you'll see traces of subtle movement in the wrist, arm, etc.  Then when he plays music involving similar things, suddenly there is a host of other movements.  The problem with this kind of instruction or demonstrating is that the whole body works together, and if you try to isolate one thing, you end up locking up other parts of your body.  The teacher will still keep these things free somewhat, but the student won't.

- I watched a series of on-line lessons that one can subscribe to for free.  The emphasis was on forearm, wrist, hand etc., rotation, up-down and similar.  One particular piece was demonstrated and taught for the sake of this.  By chance, that teacher used the same piece to teach pedal, and this time the camera was set at a full body view angle, in order to show the piece.  This time one could see how he shifted body weight, and how many of those movements in the forearms (as per the original demo) actually originated as far down as the hips with fluid body movements that flowed into the arms, hands etc.

I've run into a thing which I'll call "additive" for lack of a name for it.  Here a teacher will teach one isolated thing while cutting out the others, and over time add the other things.  My example is from violin - I hope this is ok.  For changing from one string to the other, many teach beginners to raise their elbow to new heights at the shoulder.  In actual fact, to varying degrees the arm at the shoulder, the forearm at the elbow, the hand at the wrist, and the fingers at the knuckles, all play a role in varying proportions.  a) One set of teachers have students use only the crude arm at shoulder way, and give repertoire that supports this limited motion - as the student advances, the forearm at elbow is added, along with repertoire needing this - and so on.  I call this "additive". b) Another set doesn't create these restrictions, allows for experimentation, and says that everything has to be able to move to some degree, and how much for each varies according to the music.  They encourage natural use of the body, exploration etc.

The problem with the "additive" system is that if it is normal for everything to be free to move at least a little bit, and as a student you diligently isolate that one thing that is "allowed" to move, you are also locking up and tensing the body.  Whether you can magically free up these parts later on, as more is "added" is an open question.  I believe that back then I learned in the "additive" way.

Following instructions is a tricky business.  If a teacher is aware, able to observe, rather than following some handed down formula, then the teacher will be adapting the teaching according to the student and the student's needs.  This includes observing the student, seeing whether it's working, whether the instructions are causing problems or helping, and adjusting accordingly.

The danger is also those teachers who have an idea of what is "supposed to" be done, according to how they have been taught.  For a student it's tricky business.