Practising hands separate and hands together

[dontcheeseme]

When's the optimum time to practise hands together?? (E.g. after you can do twice or 3x the required speed with either hand?)

[adodd81802]

Here's my thoughts.

I don't think you can ever quantify these things. I am also not convinced hands separate is the most efficient way to learn in the beginning. People like to have set numbers or methods like an "this is how many times you should do something to definitely ensure you've done it enough times" but it's such an inefficient way, you need to think for yourself and learn your own self when you've practiced something enough that it no longer fails.

I think you should almost always start hands together, unless there is a certain passage for one hand that you cannot do.

Everybody wants to take their absolute time when learning the piece, and you end up getting bulked down too early with the little details and never actually finish anything.

The best idea is to jump in at a comfortable speed, with aim to push tempo ASAP and iron out the creases as you go along. Jump between fast and slow practice if you feel like you're losing control at any areas, but let it just be to re prep you for going fast again - like warming up before a run.

Before you know it you've done 90% of the piece and you can then spend your time on those difficult sections to tidy them up. Logically you should start with those difficult sections, but for learning pianists it can sometimes be difficult to identify those when looking at a new piece.

So yeah optimum, is from the very beginning, see what doesn't work, and if you can't play slowly hands together at this stage then consider Hands separate. For difficult rhythms, take that section out of the piece and practice it until you full understand where the note placement is.

[visitor]

Here's my thoughts.

I don't think you can ever quantify these things. I am also not convinced hands separate is the most efficient way to learn in the beginning. People like to have set numbers or methods like an "this is how many times you should do something to definitely ensure you've done it enough times" but it's such an inefficient way, you need to think for yourself and learn your own self when you've practiced something enough that it no longer fails.

I think you should almost always start hands together, unless there is a certain passage for one hand that you cannot do.

Everybody wants to take their absolute time when learning the piece, and you end up getting bulked down too early with the little details and never actually finish anything.

The best idea is to jump in at a comfortable speed, with aim to push tempo ASAP and iron out the creases as you go along. Jump between fast and slow practice if you feel like you're losing control at any areas, but let it just be to re prep you for going fast again - like warming up before a run.

Before you know it you've done 90% of the piece and you can then spend your time on those difficult sections to tidy them up. Logically you should start with those difficult sections, but for learning pianists it can sometimes be difficult to identify those when looking at a new piece.

So yeah optimum, is from the very beginning, see what doesn't work, and if you can't play slowly hands together at this stage then consider Hands separate. For difficult rhythms, take that section out of the piece and practice it until you full understand where the note placement is.

spot on.
there is a misconception of separating the hand (for as little as possible) to identify where the failure is occurring or to learn what the line does in isolation (ie train the ear to listen for a specific musical gesture), but once an issue is identified or sorted, practice should  commence again w/ both. otherwise it's 'extra learning' that doesn't really help since you are not trying to get good at doing it w one hand only, so why practice to improve execution of something that won't be performed that way. adaptation and learning is stimulus specific. it can cause neural and cognitive dissonance/interference with competing signals.
 there is bench-marking once something is learned to see if while playing with both you can drop one hand and keep on going w the other and add the hand back in, ie are they independent, that's a separate matter.

this is part i of ii of a really good technique discussion and she early on (at 10:20+ but honestly if ff to that part it's out of context so best to view entirely since segment before the 'never practice hands separately' discussion begins....)

[quantum]

The best idea is to jump in at a comfortable speed, with aim to push tempo ASAP and iron out the creases as you go along. Jump between fast and slow practice if you feel like you're losing control at any areas, but let it just be to re prep you for going fast again - like warming up before a run.

Before you know it you've done 90% of the piece and you can then spend your time on those difficult sections to tidy them up. Logically you should start with those difficult sections, but for learning pianists it can sometimes be difficult to identify those when looking at a new piece.

Agreed.  This method does work well for those that are comfortable at the instrument and not playing repertoire that is too much of a stretch.  For beginning pianists, however, they may have not yet built up the tool set to deal with fundamental problem solving at the instrument and thus may need to take smaller size initial steps to learning a piece.  Nonetheless, it is a very efficient way to learn and build repertoire. 

[adodd81802]

That's true, however If that is the case I think the learner should just aim for smaller chunks of music to learn (and suitable difficulty repertoire) and in general start at slower speeds, but still apply the same method.

It will be quickly realised that a fast speed can easily be achieved once the slow fundamental speed is set.

[rmbarbosa]

Even with Bach?

[adodd81802]

Even with Bach?

I'm not completely sure what your question is directed at or too. However I waste too much time with an OP finding out their background and how they don't have, can't afford, or don't want a teacher.

I will from my answer always assume there is a teacher involved in the OP learning the piano when they present their question.

With that in my mind, my answer is given on the basis that the person learning the piano is encountering repertoire they both understand and is within their skill range, but are just struggling with the learning process.

Just because we all have 10 fingers and 2 ears, doesn't mean we learn the same way!

I am assuming your query with Bach is referring to his more difficult work, and that you are assuming the pianist would not understand this. I would not attempt a piece of music I did not feel I did not  understand, and so have to assume everybody else works the same way otherwise nobody would ever be able to answer anything.

[brogers70]

I almost always start hands separate. It lets me work out any technical issues (except ones involving coordination of hands) and get the sound and phrasing and all that satisfactory. I start to put hands together when I can play the hands separate up to tempo without mistakes. Some excellent pianists I've talked to start hands together just to see how something sounds and feels, but they nonetheless go back and do a lot of work hands separate before finally polishing the piece.

[outin]

Must be how my brain halves work, but it's easier for me to play hands together than hands separate (things with little left hand activity are a real pain to learn), so I always start hands together and only do hands separate if something needs to be figured out in a very specific way...I would think this is a personal matter so difficult to generalize to every student.

Then again for an average person it's not possible to polish both hands separately and then just put them together without a lot of extra work, so you will end up learning the piece 3 times. It may be ok if one can build muscle memory very quickly, but for a slow learner like me it would just take too much time.

[rmbarbosa]

i asked: even with Bach. Because in a fugue, for example, the complexity is so great that it is not possible to play it without a carefull work sometimes for each voice... We need to play each voice alone and understand the connetions and I doubt if it is possible to play hands together without a previous study of each voice...
My English is not good, because I am not a native. So it is a bit difficult for me to explain more clearly what I think...