Schumann

[ronde_des_sylphes]

A frequent subject of Pianostreet controversy   let's have some votes!

[stevensk]

-I voted "Generally good" although I havent heard/played enough to evaluate this 

[visitor]

generally poor assuming we're talking Bob/Bobbie, Clara has some nice stuff, (her husband though, speaking specifically of the solo piano music it's just 'blah' , I find less offense with orchestral output and the chamber music, and a good chunk of the lieder).
I think I must have a natural immunity for Shcumannitis

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I would happily make ownership of the sheetmusic of the piano concerto a criminal offence 

[visitor]

I would happily make ownership of the sheetmusic of the piano concerto a criminal offence 

c'mon it's not totally worthless, it makes for great lining of the bottom of a bird cage, a cat litter box, underneath a leg to fix a wobbly table, under the rump so as to sit higher up at the piano, start a camp fire quickly, etc. has its uses i suppose 

[thalbergmad]

Schumann is horseshit full stop. His worthless rubbish is unromantic and emotionally restrained and the kind of output one would expect from someone who was mentally retarded.

Some of his early works might just be passable, but his hatred of display meant that the last 20 odd years of his life, produced little that wasn't banal and predictable.

Thal

[ahinton]

I would happily make ownership of the sheetmusic of the piano concerto a criminal offence 

But what about borrowing it?(!)...

It's one of the emptiest of Schumann's best known works; hwy Martha Argerich, of all people, still insists on giving yet more performances of it I simply have no idea.

Best,

Alistair

[visitor]

am thankful for him though, boring has he was, without him we don't have Brahms and I like Brahm's improvement and evolution of the style and compositional approach much better. And I believe those following these cats are very much worthy of study and more performance, I'm referring specifically to Ricahrd Strauss and Egon Kornauth.

here's a douzie of a Strauss (not the burlesque which is great too but this is more refreshing since it's rarer) piece is seldom performed from what i've seen, never seen it programmed (though I've seen the Burlesque live), and even with only the left hand, orders of magnitude better than the Schumann concerto....

Symphonic Etudes in the form of a Passacaglia), for piano, left hand & orchestra, Op. 74

here's vol 1 of Egon's output played by fantastic John Powell

[ahinton]

Schumann is horseshit full stop.

Some might regards that as an insult - to the horse and possible even to punctuation.

His worthless rubbish is unromantic and emotionally restrained and the kind of output one would expect from someone who was mentally retarded.

To begin with, Schumann was not "mentally retarded"; he acquired mental afflictions towards the end of his life and but was not born with them, so they could not have affected a great deal of his work.

To describe all of his music as "unromantic and emotionally restrained" suggests either bigotry of the worst order, a most unusual opinion or over-exposure to bad performances of it. I'm very far from a fan of the majority of his music but to describe such works and the piano quintet, Études Symphoniques, the Toccata and the like as you do here beggars belief. The symphonies are largely quite weak and unskilled, the piano sonatas have great ideas but don't hold together well (expect in the most expert hands), the quartets don't hold a candle to Mendelssohn's and some of the songs are rather dull. In most of his piano music he demonstrates that his facility to write for the instrument falls well short of his contemporaries Chopin, Liszt and Alkan. But to dismiss his entire corpus of work as "worthless rubbish" strains credibility.

Some of his early works might just be passable, but his hatred of display meant that the last 20 odd years of his life, produced little that wasn't banal and predictable.

That's an interesting thought insofar as it goes, but what you call his "hatred of display" might suggest that you've been listening to the wrong performances; in any case, not everything of value is about "display"!

However, If I never hear that piano concerto again for the rest of my life - even played by Martha - it'll be too soon! Its repetititititive finale is more than enough to make anyone want to throw something at something. He and Grieg each wrote an A minor piano concerto that's become exceedingly popular. A very minor piano concerto in each case, though Bob's is even more minor than Ted's, I think...

Best,

Alistair

[mjames]

I was just about to mention Brahms too. Though I don't feel that their works [orchestral, chamber, piano] are similar, I feel like their piano stuff shared the same philosophy. Maybe it's just me.

Anyways for me his orchestral works are still hit and misses, especially the symphonies. However I have grown into his piano music. There are some wonderful gems in his late stuff. Will link to the stuff I'm talking about later today! Since schumanns and Brahms music are the polar opposites in terms of style of the type of music I love the most [style brillante] I completely shunned them. Now that I'm trying to leave my shell of Chopin and his 'groupies' and trying to get into more and more different styles of piano writing I'm able to enjoy schumanns music. I'm even planning on playing a few of his piano cycles.
Looks like I have left PS' Schumann hate group!

However I still agree that his piano concerto is a chore to listen to...

[ahinton]

am thankful for him though, boring has he was, without him we don't have Brahms and I like Brahm's improvement and evolution of the style and compositional approach much better. And I believe those following these cats are very much worthy of study and more performance, I'm referring specifically to Ricahrd Strauss and Egon Kornauth.

here's a douzie of a Strauss (not the burlesque which is great too but this is more refreshing since it's rarer) piece is seldom performed from what i've seen, never seen it programmed (though I've seen the Burlesque live), and even with only the left hand, orders of magnitude better than the Schumann concerto....

Symphonic Etudes in the form of a Passacaglia), for piano, left hand & orchestra, Op. 74

here's vol 1 of Egon's output played by fantastic John Powell

Schumann's influence on Elgar is just one of the potent ones that he exerted.

Many thanks for the links.

Oh, and "Jonathan" Powell, by the way!

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

without him we don't have Brahms and I like Brahms improvement and evolution of the style and compositional approach much better.

My view for a long time has been Brahms minus talent equals Schumann.

[ahinton]

However I still agree that his piano concerto is a chore to listen to...

It must be even more of one to play, whether you're the soloist or one of the orchestral players - and hardly a joy to conduct, I imagine...

Best,

Alistair

[mjames]

Some of the stuff I like:

!

[visitor]

Schumann's influence on Elgar is just one of the potent ones that he exerted.

Many thanks for the links.

Oh, and "Jonathan" Powell, by the way!

Best,

Alistair

:-) happy to share, and I have not sought out much Elgar lately, I shall. !! oops on Mr. Powell, yes Johnathan, sorry I was writing an email at and adding to the reply at the same time between thoughts, my slip and no offense or disrespect meant to Mr. Powell, I deeply admire his playing and the work he's done with the Toccata label lately (ie Medins, etc.)

[visitor]

My view for a long time has been Brahms minus talent equals Schumann.

ha! that says so much so right in such few words! Spot on haha , i'll be stealing that (due credit to thee shall be given )

[pazzi]

My view for a long time has been Brahms minus talent equals Schumann.

hahaha! d'accord!

[georgey]

It might be like sticking my head into a hornet’s nest here.  

History maybe has judged the Schumann piano concerto to be among the most popular of all time.  I see about as many recordings of this as Tchaikovsky #1 and Beethoven #5 in my Schwann catalog and more recordings than Rach 2.  I see about as many pages describing Schumann’s piano music in Grout “A History of western Music” as I see of Schubert or Mendelsohn piano (but less than Chopin or Liszt piano).  I see the Schumann concerto on many top 10 lists of piano concertos.  I judge composers as history has judged them.  I believe history has shown Beethoven to be THE #1 composer in western music and for good reason.  I personally like Schumann’s piano concerto a lot.

So Brahms was a great admirer of Schumann’s music.  Does anyone know how many times Brahms or Clara performed the Schumann concerto?  Did Brahms not know good music?  But then Brahms hated the Liszt piano sonata (and pretty much all his music) and much of Wagner’s music (he also loved Wagner) and Bruckner (illogical slop in Brahms view).   Anyone recall the petition that Brahms tried to start to condemn the new music of Wagner and Liszt? History has shown that Liszt piano sonata is one of the very greatest piano works of the 19th century.   Wagner is among the greatest composers of all time as judged by history.  As much as I admire Brahms music and give value to his opinions, I value history’s opinion more.  Not even close.  Everyone has personal likes and dislikes.  History will ultimately be the judge.

I voted for “One of the highest points of the 19th century”.  Also, some of the facts here might be wrong.  I’m just going from memory on most of this (I’m so lazy to not look things up).

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It might be like sticking my head into a hornet’s nest here.  

It's looking like a pretty even split so far. It would be disappointingly uninteresting if everyone agreed!

[perfect_pitch]

Schumann is horseshit full stop.

Well, so far the polls show that the Pianostreet members have voted that Schumann was one of the highest points of the 19th century.

[thalbergmad]

The result of the poll is only advisory and not legally binding.

If it doesn't go the way i want it to, i will have a strop and mount a legal challenge.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The result of the poll is only advisory and not legally binding.

If it doesn't go the way i want it to, i will have a strop and mount a legal challenge.

 

[gep]

The strange thing is, for me, that while i do believe the music is, in general, quite good, it does just not work for me. As does quite a lot from that era, I must say. Schumann's concerto is among the most popular, along with the Grieg, Tchaikovsky's (or how you wish to spell it) 1st and Beethoven's 5th. But neither the Greig nor the Chaikowsky are among the best, and the Beethoven isn't the best he wrote.

If I woud want to hear a 'Romantic' Piano Concerto, I'd go for the Brahms 1st, even if the Finale is weaker than the rest. Or, to veer out, the Furtwängler...

All best,
gep

[visitor]

as for remarks that usually come up and i think here have alreadyabout his popularity and so many in the world liking/admiring,  the Kardashian name comes to mind, admired by many, liked by a lot, popular, successful, have influence, doesn't mean I'll go out of my way to consume their media.
same for Schumann.

[visitor]

The strange thing is, for me, that while i do believe the music is, in general, quite good, it does just not work for me. As does quite a lot from that era, I must say. Schumann's concerto is among the most popular, along with the Grieg, Tchaikovsky's (or how you wish to spell it) 1st and Beethoven's 5th. But neither the Greig nor the Chaikowsky are among the best, and the Beethoven isn't the best he wrote.

If I woud want to hear a 'Romantic' Piano Concerto, I'd go for the Brahms 1st, even if the Finale is weaker than the rest. Or, to veer out, the Furtwängler...

All best,
gep

lot of good statements there. I have wondered why the persistence of the Tchaikovsky concerto in the top lists when the guy didn't even like writing for piano and orchestra, he didn't like the competition for sound/detail attention between the two. and as for no 1 being done by everyone, how no 1 is more popular than the concert fantasy for piano and orch. is beyond me.

as for Beethoven, yes no 1 and 5 seem the most popular, and i actually like the 6th concerto(not his best but quite enjoyable so it being ignored baffles me.... *(the violin concerto transcribed for piano and orchestra, though considered 'weak' vs the rest, i just like the way it sounds).

must go listen to the Furtw...

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Kardashian ..
 Schumann.

Have one thing in common. Massive arse.

More seriously, I think  the Beethoven concerti go 4-3-5-1-2 (best to worst), though sometimes I think 3 is better than 4.

[gep]

Comparing Schumann with Kardashian is like, err, the mind boggles...

The Tsjajkofski Concert Fantasy is indeed far less heard than it deserves (Kardashian is far more seen than she deserves...).

I have an 'Everest' LP box with all seven Beethoven Piano Concertos played by Felicia Blumental;  Indeed the '6th' Concerto is interesting and (as far as I know) adapted by Beethoven himself. Personally, I like both the 3rd and 4th, with the 4th winning out in the long run.

All best,
gep

[stevensk]

I think this is not a thread about Schumann, but a contest about the most sophisticated nobless taste 

[georgey]

Have one thing in common. Massive arse.

More seriously, I think  the Beethoven concerti go 4-3-5-1-2 (best to worst), though sometimes I think 3 is better than 4.

I always liked #4 the best also.  #3 and #5 are close to tie for second place for me.  In a rare case for me and Beethoven:  I can't sit through #1 or #2 without losing interest.  I love ALL his sonatas though, including the very early ones (minus op 49).

[georgey]

If I woud want to hear a 'Romantic' Piano Concerto, I'd go for the Brahms 1st, even if the Finale is weaker than the rest. Or, to veer out, the Furtwängler...

All best,
gep

Brahms #2 for me!  One of the greatest of all.  I like #1, but I hear Brahms struggling here at times, trying to make too big a statement.  Great start with the massive opening of the 1st mvt, but then it falls apart a little for me.  Still very good overall though. His Serenades feel more relaxed and at peace to me and was a good choice for Brahms (to step back and do something light) in contrast to concerto #1.

[ahinton]

The result of the poll is only advisory and not legally binding.

If it doesn't go the way i want it to, i will have a strop and mount a legal challenge.

You can be so amusing sometimes, Thal!

What I hope, though, it that, because Germany has allowed in so very many immigrants (be they refugees or otherwise), when some Germans begin to feel as though they have as a direct consequence no longer the space to continue to live in Gemany and decide to move out, all the Schumanns from there move to Gravesend where I feel very sure that they would be especially welcome!

Best,

Alistair

[chopinlover01]

Before everyone casts their thoughts about the Schumann concerto in stone, listen to this recording..

[ahinton]

Before everyone casts their thoughts about the Schumann concerto in stone, listen to this recording..

For some of us, however, a fine performance such as this simply isn't enough to convince that the work itself is any better than actualy it is! Particular performances can sometimes appear to elevate a work beyond itself, but saly not in this instance - at least for me! It just isn't anywhere near the best of Schumann.

Best,

Alistair

[outin]

That's indeed one of the few works by Schumann worth listening.

I think most of Schumann is unlisteneable and all of it is unplayable...

But I dislike Tchaikovsky even more. He should have kept to ballets (those are fine) and left the piano alone.

Brahms on the other hand knew how to work with the piano.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Before everyone casts their thoughts about the Schumann concerto in stone, listen to this recording..

Yes, it is a good performance (I made it until the end of the first movement for research purposes, but could take no more). Nonetheless it, to me at least, exemplifies the problem. Schumann had a peculiar dramatic sense. Liszt may have written a lot of rather disposable music, but at least he had a performer's sense for the dramatic. Take the cadenza here: just as it threatens to get interesting it lapses into a verbose piece of thematic-regurgitation waffling and destroys any native tension previously built up. If we are going to judge him against the greats, sorry, it doesn't hold up. I would be embarrassed to have written such a cadenza. The whole work is redolent of a very stolid Germanic self-importance: "look at me, I have something important to say - and I'm going to say it at great length!" Tbh I much prefer, for example, the same performer's Pixis disc: not great music by any means, but light-hearted, well-intentioned and not sinking under the weight of its own pomposity.

[thalbergmad]

I refuse to even push the play button. Time has taught me that you cannot polish a turd and not even the greatest of pianists can extract what is not there in the first place.

The popularity of this garbage is one of the great mysteries in classical music. Perhaps those that love it have never heard the immeasurably superior Henselt F minor, the Thalberg, The Norbert Burgmuller, the Kalkbrenner 4th, Sterndale Bennett 4th, the Dohler, the Dreyschock Concertstuck, the Kullak and lord knows how many others written in the same timeframe.

All of the above are just so superior to the Schumann that one would have to be deaf or retarded to think otherwise.

Thal

[georgey]

Before everyone casts their thoughts about the Schumann concerto in stone, listen to this recording..

Great recording!  Thanks for sharing.  The cadenza is one of the highlights of this great masterpiece.  Hats off to Schumann!!

[j_tour]

Wow.  I had no idea there was even a single person who didn't revere his piano concerto!  I'm indifferent, basically, to his smaller pieces for piano -- I've only just sight-read through them over the years, but to me they're generally small potatoes.  It's slightly unsatisfying to play, say, the Intermezzo as a solo piece, doing the highlights from the orchestral part along with the piano part, but still an absolute masterpiece.

But his longer-form pieces, his Symphonic Etudes, and his writing for orchestra in general is, to me, one of the triumphs out the Romantic book.

[chopinlover01]

My point wasn't really to praise Schumann; he certainly has his faults, and there are probably better composers out there (and the concerto is hardly his best work). I just feel that if there's ANY recording that will ever do the work justice, that it's that one. I like some of Schumann's stuff, I loathe other parts of it. Kreisleriana and Op. 12 Fantasie pieces are both great stuff; his G minor sonata (with the exception of the third movement) is mostly rubbish.
If you don't like the recording, just forget the concerto exists, because IMO that recording fixes all of the many interpretive flaws that stopped me from liking the Schumann concerto at first.

[georgey]

Wow.  I had no idea there was even a single person who didn't revere his piano concerto!

I would say that this question is NOT like on 5/29/1913 when Stravinsky’s  “The Rite of Spring” was  first performed at the Théâtre des Champs-Élysées, when the avant-garde nature of the music and choreography caused a sensation and a near-riot in the audience.  Fist fights MAY have been understandable in the case of “The Rite of Spring” at that time.

In the case of the Schumann concerto, this is SETTLED LAW.  I believe HISTORY has judged this work to be one of the great masterpieces of the 19th century piano literature.  Disagree?  Now is your chance to show how HISTORY has judged this work.  

This does not mean that some will not like this work.  I personally do not like the Grieg piano concerto because it sounds a little “corny” to me.  But I am not going to go around saying that this is a bad work just because I find it to be a little corny.  I will say that I personally find the work to be a little corny. Would Brahms say that he knows more about the value of Wagner’s “Tristan und Isolde” than history does?  Perhaps he would.  But he would be wrong in my opinion.  Brahms would say:  “Who knows more about music? Me or Ronde?”   History is the ultimate judge.

By the way:  Schumann is kicking butt in the poll here.    

[ronde_des_sylphes]

History may well be the ultimate judge, but that doesn't mean it gets everything right, and evaluations often change slowly over time. I never like the 'prominent figure x says that' argument, not least because prominent figure y often says something different. I am fairly certain Busoni called Schumann 'petit-bourgeois' and other uncomplimentary epithets (I think it is in letters to his wife). I have no problem if people wish to hold the concerto in high regard; that is their prerogative. If I had written it I would have destroyed the ms (speaking with my 'composer hat' on), and that is my prerogative also.

[georgey]

History may well be the ultimate judge, but that doesn't mean it gets everything right, and evaluations often change slowly over time. I never like the 'prominent figure x says that' argument, not least because prominent figure y often says something different. I am fairly certain Busoni called Schumann 'petit-bourgeois' and other uncomplimentary epithets (I think it is in letters to his wife). I have no problem if people wish to hold the concerto in high regard; that is their prerogative. If I had written it I would have destroyed the ms (speaking with my 'composer hat' on), and that is my prerogative also.

Agreed.  Look at Charles Ives for example.  But Schumann is settled I believe.  I listened to the cadenza of the Schumann 2 times after a copy was posted in this thread.  I do not think another human (past or present) could have done better with this.  You would not believe the bad things that Clara Schumann and Brahms said about Tristan Und Isolde.   I love this work as I know you do.  Even though we may disagree on a couple works,  I will bet that we are in agreement on 90%+.  As you said earlier, disagreement is what makes things interesting.

Highest regards.


edit:  I was unable to find an example of someone writing an alternate cadenza for the Schumann piano concerto.  Many composers and pianists have written alternative cadenzas to the cadenza written by Beethoven in the 1st mvt of his 3rd concerto for example (e.g. Ries).

[perfect_pitch]

The result of the poll is only advisory and not legally binding.

Nevertheless, the users have voted that Schumann was 'one of the high points of the 19th century'.
According to the poll, that's what the piano forums members has voted.

Thanks for your vote Thalbergmad...

[stoudemirestat]

So my question is why a certain pompous, verbose minority in this thread think that their opinion means more than those who disagree with them, and have to prattle on about it in absolute terms?

Do you guys really think that so many great artists play the Schumann PC because history told them to, rather than because they really, really like it? If they didn't wouldn't they just play the many other pieces that history has deemed worthy that they find more agreeable?

[georgey]

So my question is why a certain pompous, verbose minority in this thread think that their opinion means more than those who disagree with them, and have to prattle on about it in absolute terms?

Do you guys really think that so many great artists play the Schumann PC because history told them to, rather than because they really, really like it? If they didn't wouldn't they just play the many other pieces that history has deemed worthy that they find more agreeable?

Ronde happens to be a world class pianist in my estimation.  He is getting ready to release his second CD.   

[stoudemirestat]

Ronde happens to be a world class pianist in my estimation.  He is getting ready to release his second CD.   

I realize this, admire the guy, and don't have much of a problem with anything he has said.

[outin]

So my question is why a certain pompous, verbose minority in this thread think that their opinion means more than those who disagree with them, and have to prattle on about it in absolute terms?

I'd say whether in majority or minority, one's own opinion usually matters more than others' 

[georgey]

I'd say whether in majority or minority, one's own opinion usually matters more than others'  

I stand by EVERY opinion and statement I made in this thread!   I was listening to the Grieg piano concerto just now.  I still find this to be a little corny.  

This is my final post in this thread.  See ya!   

[outin]

According to the poll, that's what the piano forums members has voted.

It was only by accident that I found my way to this thread. I assume many who do not care for Bobbie did not. For better coverage one should title the thread Chopin/Bach and then ask the same question there

[thalbergmad]

Do you guys really think that so many great artists play the Schumann PC because history told them to, rather than because they really, really like it?

Perhaps they do it because there are still thousands of idiots that will buy it.

Thal