A population movement thread for Thal

[ahinton]

OK; let he (or she) who is without xenophobia cast the first post!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

From the Brexit thread posted by........ (need you ask)

I hope that she also expresses due recognition of all of the categories of immigrant and commends people to do the same, for ease of understanding of the situation. Immigrants fall into the following groups:
1. Refugees, many of whom are dispossessed, from war-torn and/or terrorism beseiged countries
2. Economic migrants
3. Migrants from other EU member states
4. Migrants from non-EU countries who come to UK to take up work that they've already secured
5. Migrants from non-EU countries who already have right of abode in UK
6. Illegals.

All very well, but it is not a lot of comfort to extant populations negatively affected by "migrants", how they are classified.

Thal

[ahinton]

From the Brexit thread posted by........ (need you ask)

I hope that she also expresses due recognition of all of the categories of immigrant and commends people to do the same, for ease of understanding of the situation. Immigrants fall into the following groups:
1. Refugees, many of whom are dispossessed, from war-torn and/or terrorism beseiged countries
2. Economic migrants
3. Migrants from other EU member states
4. Migrants from non-EU countries who come to UK to take up work that they've already secured
5. Migrants from non-EU countries who already have right of abode in UK
6. Illegals.

All very well, but it is not a lot of comfort to extant populations negatively affected by "migrants", how they are classified

For one thing, by no means all "extant populations" (by which I assume you to mean populations in areas to which immigrants of one category or another are coming) are "negatively affected by" them. For another, you would surely not expect all such categories to be treated equally, would you? 1. is a arguably a more deserving and desperate cause than 2. 3., 4, & 5. are already entitled to come to UK albeit for different reasons and 6. is self-explanatory.

Some in 2. might contribute to the economy and those in 4. are bound to do so.

It sounds, however, as though you may be guilty of falling into the trap of regarding all migrants negatively and in indiscriminate disregard of the reasons for their desire to come to UK (apart, perhaps, from those in 5.).

Anyway, given the sheer quantity of them that have been absorbed by Germany of late (a disproportionately and impractically large number in my view, as I have already observed), perhaps if some Germans living in Germany perceive themselves to be "negatively affected" by said influx and accordingly decide to relocate to UK, I have no doubt that all the Schumanns among them will be most warmly be welcomed in Gravesend!

But many thanks for airing your thoughts here rather than in the Brexit thread where they're misplaced.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

It sounds, however, as though you may be guilty of falling into the trap of regarding all migrants negatively and in indiscriminate disregard of the reasons for their desire to come to UK (apart, perhaps, from those in 5.).

Not at all, some are more deserving than others, but perhaps if you were a resident in Boston for instance (or any other area which an Englishman might feel a stranger in his own Country), it don't really matter how immigrants are classified. The numbers alone are of sufficient concern.

No need to worry though. You are OK.

Thal

[ahinton]

Not at all, some are more deserving than others, but perhaps if you were a resident in Boston for instance (or any other area which an Englishman might feel a stranger in his own Country), it don't really matter how immigrants are classified. The numbers alone are of sufficient concern.

No need to worry though. You are OK.

I don't know why you repeat that mantra. As I stated, the problem is that places where there's ample space for more people to move into often have insufficient infrastructure properly to accommodate them whereas those where there's very little space do have it, which is rather like the kind of Catch 22 situation in which an assumption might be made that accommodation for immigrants cannot be found for either reason. The problem with this is that they have to go somewhere and, if they all stay put, there would be no population movement at all.

However, the same applies to population movement within a country as it does with such movement between countries; imagine, for example, if half the population of Scotland (including immigrants already there) decided to move to Wales, there would be both space issues in Cardiff and Swansea and infrastructural shortcomings in the more remote parts of the country, so the problem would be just the same as it would for immigrants.

The same problems would apply to those living outside EU with right of abode in UK should a substantial proportion of them decide to relocate to UK (which they'd be entitled to do and so couldn't be turned back by any UK authorities).

The notion of a stranger in one's own country is also a charged one. I assume you to have mentioned Boston (Lincs., not Mass.!) because it has a high proportion of immigrants (you could have cited Bradford or Wakefield to make your point), but not all English people living in any of those places would claim to feel as though strangers in their own country.

For the record, I've never had cause to feel like one in England either because I come from another country or because there are quit a few non-UK people living in my neighbourhood, wherever I've lived in England.

I suspect that a good proportion of those who have chosen to regard themselves as strangers in their own country wold probably feel like strangers in any country.

I would certainly feel like a stranger in any country with an extremely low immigrant population; I've noticed, for example, how strange it feels in certain parts of rural France where almost everyone seems to be French.

I don't know what proportion of your local population is immigrant, but mightn't you possibly feel - at least for a time - like a stranger in your own country were you to move to somewhere else in it, a long way from where you are now (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, say) that had appropximately the same proportion of immigrants (if indeed it did so)?

The other issue with all of this is, of course, this sense of "my own country"; this is something about which you seem to feel very strongly in an exclusivist way whereas I hardly feel it at all - and not just because I live in England - it would be the same if I lived in Scotland. Neither is "my" country; I don't own it!

Best,

Alistair

[outin]

Seems I misread the title...This wasn't a copulation movement thread for Thal after all...

[thalbergmad]

I suspect that a good proportion of those who have chosen to regard themselves as strangers in their own country wold probably feel like strangers in any country.

What utter cobblers. When I walk down the High Street in a town in which I have lived all my life and do not hear one single person speaking English, I feel like a stranger.

If I were walking down a street in Ethiopia, I would expect to feel like a stranger, but not on my own doorstep. I haven't chosen anything.

No need for you to worry.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The other issue with all of this is, of course, this sense of "my own country"; this is something about which you seem to feel very strongly in an exclusivist way whereas I hardly feel it at all - and not just because I live in England - it would be the same if I lived in Scotland. Neither is "my" country; I don't own it!

Well, we will always differ on this. I am proud to be English and I love my Queen and my Country and I do not want it to turn into a 3rd world shithole by mass immigration..

You seem to have no allegiance to any Country on which you dump your arse.

Thal

[ahinton]

What utter cobblers. When I walk down the High Street

So they still have cobbled streets where you live, then?

in a town in which I have lived all my life and do not hear one single person speaking English, I feel like a stranger.

Well, that's the fault of people around there who either don't or won't speak English but some of them would do so if you spoke to them in English; whilst I'm all for people coming to UK being or becoming proficient in English, there's no reason for them to speak English all the time, especially when they're with other people from the same place as they've come from.

No need for you to worry.

Whether or not there is, I wasn't worrying. When I first moved to England from Scotland many years ago, I struggled to understand the way people spoke in south Devon and no doubt they struggled even more to understand what I was saying; soon got used to it, though!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Seems I misread the title...This wasn't a copulation movement thread for Thal after all...

No, you're quite correct on that; had it been so, I can assure you that I would not have started it!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well, we will always differ on this. I am proud to be English

I'm proud to be Scottish but don't make a big thing of it and am European first and foremost in any case. I'm proud to be a European, too, but I never use such pride with a view to asserting some kind of superiority over people from elsewhere.

I do not want it to turn into a 3rd world shithole by mass immigration

So you'd rather risk the possibility of it turning into one without immigration, then? (which I'm quite sure it could!). Immigrants are not what might cause such a thing in any event; it's people determined to cause it or being too lazy to stop it, wherever they might come from.

Would you still feel like a foreigner in what you call your own country if all the immigrants were reasonably fluent in English? And what of people of mixed race (two or more) anywhere? Whose country's whose and who should or should not feel like a foreigner where? What might you imagine Daniel four-passports Barenboim to regard as "his country"?

You seem to have no allegiance to any Country on which you dump your arse

I've never landed posterior first in any part of England (or indeed anywhere else, for that matter) and, whilst I am not without allegiance to any country or place, I am, as I said, European first, Scottish next and Brit next but never ram any of that down anyone's throat, still less seek to give the impression that I consider myself superior to those who are not European, Scottish or British.

John F. Kennedy, in his inaugural speech as US President, famously said "ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country" (although apparently this was not an original phrase of his - he evidently stole it from his school headmaster); I have to admit to a preference for Orson Welles' take on this, namely "ask not what your country can do for you; ask what's for lunch"...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Would you still feel like a foreigner in what you call your own country if all the immigrants were reasonably fluent in English?

Not as much, no. I do believe a certain proficiency should be required to come here for more than a visit or holiday.

Thal

[ahinton]

Not as much, no. I do believe a certain proficiency should be required to come here for more than a visit or holiday.

Good to read this. I agree with you. OK, if someone desperate to come to UK hasn't yet had the chance to develop at least a reasonable degree of proficiency in spoken and written English, then fair enough, as long as the effort is being made or is about to be made.

That said, some people regard the obsession with English language as destructive to the extent that the more people who learn and become dependent upon the use of English the more that other languages might suffer.

But I do agree, as I've said. Again, however, proficiency in English doesn't mean that those who acquire it will necessarily absorb much of UK culture unless that happens separately - and also when people come to UK with a decent knowledge of English but at the same time bring something of their culture, it wll affect to some degree the English people in England who confront it. No problem in principle with that as far as I'm concerned; we're all Europeans in a much larger cultural milieu that must absorb so much else, hence what's really behind my lack of "my" country attitude. Imagine lots of Sewdes, Danes and Dutch coming to UK with their English proficiency but with their different cultural backgrounds and traditions as well as all the international English usage stuff which the internet and its ever more prevalent use renders almost compulsory.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Imagine lots of Sewdes, Danes and Dutch coming to UK with their English proficiency but with their different cultural backgrounds and traditions as well as all the international English usage stuff which the internet and its ever more prevalent use renders almost compulsory.

No problem with people from those Countries as there are far higher chances of intigration.

Muslims are the problem.

Thal

[ahinton]

No problem with people from those Countries as there are far higher chances of intigration.

Muslims are the problem.

You sound just like that much vilified French restaurateur who refused to serve two of them on the basis of his alleged belief that all Muslims are terrorists and all terrorists are Muslims or some such garbage (although he did offer all due apology afterwards).

There are Muslims in Sweden, Denmark and Netherlands, you know! Would you have a problem with them coming over? And why only Muslims and not Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, &c.? What of Muslim immigrants who are fluent in English and who integrate well into UK society (of whom there's no shortage)?

And what about Christians? Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all religions of Middle Eastern origin.

Yes, some people don't integrate well, largely because they are unable or unwilling to make sufficient effort to do so, but that applies to all manner of immigrants from all manner of places and certainly not just Muslims.

And did the colonists bother much about how well they integrated where they went? (I mention this only because many people from past conolised nations have relocated to the countries of the colonists).

Is there a fundamental difference between colonial integration and colonic irrigation?

OK, I made that last bit up...

Best,

Alistair

[hardy_practice]

Well, we will always differ on this. I am proud to be English and I love my Queen and my Country and I do not want it to turn into a 3rd world shithole by mass immigration..

Says PS's own King Canute!

[ahinton]

Says PS's own King Canute!

King Canute - or, more properly, Knut - was Danish, so Thal, by his own admission, has no problem with him and his fellow countrymen and women! The only apparent difference is that Knut tried to push back the waves whereas Thal would prefer to push back the immigrants (although even in this there remains a similarity in the neither could ever succeed at this).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

There are Muslims in Sweden, Denmark and Netherlands, you know! Would you have a problem with them coming over? And why only Muslims and not Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, &c.?

Indeed, there are Muslims in Sweden and if memory serves, they are looking to deport a few thousand.

And yes, I would have a problem with them coming over as they are the most intolerant of the major religions. I live in an area with a huge Sikh population and they are the most peace loving people I have ever encountered.

Thal

[ahinton]

Indeed, there are Muslims in Sweden and if memory serves, they are looking to deport a few thousand.

And yes, I would have a problem with them coming over as they are the most intolerant of the major religions. I live in an area with a huge Sikh population and they are the most peace loving people I have ever encountered.

You've said that before about Sikhs and it's good to hear; what are their relations with local Muslims, Christians et al like, just out of interest? I think that instances of Muslim intolerance in Western countries is rather more a matter of degree than numbers; the most intolerant ones tend to be those who integrate least well and their intolerance is indeed rabid, but in most such countries these people tend to be in a minority.

If Sweden is indeed looking to deport a few thousand Muslims (what is your source for this information?) and are able to do this (which is quite another matter from "looking to" do it), wouldn't most of them be likely to come to UK?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I think that instances of Muslim intolerance in Western countries is rather more a matter of degree than numbers; the most intolerant ones tend to be those who integrate least well and their intolerance is indeed rabid, but in most such countries these people tend to be in a minority.

The use of the word minority is pretty useless since it only takes a few to create carnage. Equally, the usual (majority are peace loving) is equally useless since it is the minority that causes the trouble.

The numbers are worrying to say the least and are on the increase thanks to the stupidity of the likes of Merkel. If we estimate that there are 50 million Muslims in the EU and are generous by suggesting that perhaps only 5% are radicalized, have Jihadi sympathies or severe anti western leanings, then we are still dealing with a considerable number that pose a threat.

The imbeciles running the EU need to get to grips with this before the far right movements are of sufficient numbers to start to win elections. Much more careful vetting needs to be immediately implemented and the boats coming across the Med need to be turned around instead of offering a ferry service.

Thal

[ahinton]

The use of the word minority is pretty useless since it only takes a few to create carnage. Equally, the usual (majority are peace loving) is equally useless since it is the minority that causes the trouble.

Of course it's that particular minority that causes the problems but this is true of anyone; the criminal fraternity in general is very much in the minority but cause the majority of the problems.

The numbers are worrying to say the least and are on the increase thanks to the stupidity of the likes of Merkel. If we estimate that there are 50 million Muslims in the EU and are generous by suggesting that perhaps only 5% are radicalized, have Jihadi sympathies or severe anti western leanings, then we are still dealing with a considerable number that pose a threat.

Here's a link - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/19/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/ - albeit an outdated one, that suggests that, in 2010, the Muslim population in EU was around 13m and https://newobserveronline.com/46-million-muslims-europe/ suggests that it's now risen to some 20m; the figure nearest to your 50m estimate appears to be for Muslims in Europe as a whole, including European Russia. Here's recent data for EU member states' overall populations - https://www.worldometers.info/population/countries-in-the-eu-by-population/ ; the total is now around 510m. That suggests that Muslims make up only some 4% of the EU population.

The problem with those Muslims who are "radicalised, have Jihadi sympathies or severe anti-Western leanings" is an ever present one wherever they are; in our globalised interconnected world, these kinds of Muslim can and indeed do radicalise, recruit and spread their influence remotely using the dark web, so they don't have actually to be living in Germany, France or UK (which, as you will see, are the EU member states with the highest numbers of Muslims) to be able to wreak their havoc anywhere they choose.

In any event, how do you determine whether a Muslim living within or outside EU is "radicalised, has Jihadi sympathies or has severe anti-Western leanings"? One cannot judge such things at the point at which Muslims enter EU member states and turn away those that fit that description because some official determines that they do so!

The imbeciles running the EU need to get to grips with this before the far right movements are of sufficient numbers to start to win elections. Much more careful vetting needs to be immediately implemented and the boats coming across the Med need to be turned around instead of offering a ferry service.

How would they do this? When the numbers of people crossing the Med or entering EU member states via other routes (and who are by no means all Muslims in any case) become great enough, it will be virtually impossible to stop them if they are sufficiently determined. It would only take a massive influx from certain African nations, a far greater part of the Middle East, India and Russia to develop and EU's resources to repel them wold be overwhelmed.

I'm not suggesting that all this will happen overnight but I am convinced that population movement in general will always increase, be it from Mannheim to Manchester, Belarus to Belgium, Aleppo to Altrincham or Somalia to Somerset, unless a nirvana-like situation could ever arise in which most people in the world are content to be where they reside and are not oppressed, dispossessed or under other threat there.

Bear in mind also that, whereas only some 4% of EU citizens are Muslim, around 1 in 4 in the world as a whole are Muslim, so it would be well-nigh impossible to be in many places without encountering Muslims.

Best,

Alistair

[hardy_practice]

Betcha don't get plantain where you live Thal?  Or 3 varieties of sweet potato?  Lack of variety and twice the price of food when I stay in Bath.   Is that living?  (though I'm not so keen on the Somalia to Somerset thing)

[thalbergmad]

Betcha don't get plantain where you live Thal?  Or 3 varieties of sweet potato?

Probably not, but I can offer you about 30 curry houses within 20 square miles.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

In any event, how do you determine whether a Muslim living within or outside EU is "radicalised, has Jihadi sympathies or has severe anti-Western leanings"?

You can't, so the answer is to refuse entry to all Muslims.

Or, you could just give up as I am sure you would.

You will be OK though. No terrorist attacks likely on the Welsh borders.

Thal

[hardy_practice]

Probably not, but I can offer you about 30 curry houses within 20 square miles.

Thal

You don't quite get multiculturalism do you?

[ahinton]

You can't, so the answer is to refuse entry to all Muslims.

Just like that clown Trump once said he'd do if elected. How could you determine for sure that someone entering the country IS Muslim? Any Muslim with half a brain would try not to show obvous signs when coming into UK!

Anyway, banning Muslims from a country without also banning members of all other religions would be a human rights breach that would attract negative attention from UN.

You will be OK though. No terrorist attacks likely on the Welsh borders.

Terrorist attacks can occur anywhere, perhaps especially in an area with an SAS presence such as where I am. I promise not to commit any, though.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

You don't quite get multiculturalism do you?

I think that he knows what it is; he just doesn't want any of it in England.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You don't quite get multiculturalism do you?

I get that it doesn't work. A failed experiment forced on the UK by Bliar.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Just like that clown Trump once said he'd do if elected. How could you determine for sure that someone entering the country IS Muslim? Any Muslim with half a brain would try not to show obvous signs when coming into UK!

You could always ask them. Muslims don't normally deny their faith albeit it is permitted in exceptional circumstances. Muslim names are also distinctive from those of other religions. And if there is no passport or papers, then no entry anyway.

I really do think that the Muslim World and the rest should live as seperately as possible and we should assist those who are unhappy in the UK to relocate. I think it is appalling that some areas of this Country are no go areas for non muslims.

Thal

[ahinton]

You could always ask them. Muslims don't normally deny their faith albeit it is permitted in exceptional circumstances. Muslim names are also distinctive from those of other religions. And if there is no passport or papers, then no entry anyway.

I really do think that the Muslim World and the rest should live as seperately as possible and we should assist those who are unhappy in the UK to relocate. I think it is appalling that some areas of this Country are no go areas for non muslims.

Why should I ask anyone? I'm not in charge of accepting or rejecting anyone coming to UK. Muslims will do whatever they have to, just like anyone else. Anyone can change their name, passport and whatever else it might seem prudent and/or necessary to do.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Indeed, some people do change their names. Even composers.

Thal

[mjames]

bartholdy that sneaky jew thought we wouldnt notice

[hardy_practice]

I think it may have been Barak Obama who said over the summer: How would excluding muslems from the border even work?   Do we reject people on the grounds of their faith?  Only one other 'state' in the word does that - Daesh.

[mjames]

I think it may have been Barak Obama who said over the summer: How would excluding muslems from the border even work?   Do we reject people on the grounds of their faith?  Only one other 'state' in the word does that - Daesh.

And the city of Mecca...

[ahinton]

Indeed, some people do change their names. Even composers.

So they do; Richard Arnell, for instance (although I don't think that he ever converted to Islam).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Probably not, but I can offer you about 30 curry houses

So you're selling them as well as illicitly obtained scores, then? Quite the merchant, aren't you?!

within 20 square miles.

Combien de square kilometres est that?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I think it may have been Barak Obama who said over the summer: How would excluding muslems from the border even work?   Do we reject people on the grounds of their faith?  Only one other 'state' in the word does that - Daesh.

If a nation refused entry to all immigrants of one particular faith it would have to do so to those of all others as well and, should it do this, it would look rather stupidly inconsistent were it not to deport all of its existing residents who subscribed to any religious faith; this, however, would raise two particular problems - firstly, how would the country manage thereafter in the absence of so large a proportion of its population and, secondly, where would they all be expected to go, especially if all other countries in the world did the same?

No, it's utter nonsense, of course; well over half the world's population comprises Muslims, Jews and Christians (all Middle Eastern religions), so such "rationalisation" could never be achieved in any case.

One of the world's most heavily Muslim populated and Islamic oriented countries is Iran; has its administration - whose human rights record is nothing short of deplorable - been accused of regularly torturing, persecuting or ejecting its Zoroastrian or Christian population or refusing entry to non-Muslims?

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Indeed, some people do change their names. Even composers.

That would make for a diverting thread all of its own. Immediately springing to mind in addition to Mendelssohn are Alkan, Warlock, Ivor Novello, Stokowski (I think he rewrote / rearranged a fair few orchestral pieces) and, indeed, Sorabji.

[ahinton]

That would make for a diverting thread all of its own. Immediately springing to mind in addition to Mendelssohn are Alkan, Warlock, Ivor Novello, Stokowski (I think he rewrote / rearranged a fair few orchestral pieces) and, indeed, Sorabji

and it is, of course, the last of these to whom Thal implicitly refers; there are also those who write under assumed names - Jim Hoyl, for example, who was rather better known by his real name...

Then there's Elton John, Cliff Richard, Michael Caine et al, of whom the last apparently changed his name officially from Maurice Micklewhite to Michael Caine not so long ago with a view to trying to avoid confusion and problems at airport immigration desks...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I'm not in charge of accepting or rejecting anyone coming to UK.

Praise be to Allah for that. You would be letting every bugger in.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

One of the world's most heavily Muslim populated and Islamic oriented countries is Iran; has its administration - whose human rights record is nothing short of deplorable - been accused of regularly torturing, persecuting or ejecting its Zoroastrian or Christian population or refusing entry to non-Muslims?

Perhaps all the Syrian Muslims would be better off going there.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

That would make for a diverting thread all of its own. Immediately springing to mind in addition to Mendelssohn are Alkan, Warlock, Ivor Novello, Stokowski (I think he rewrote / rearranged a fair few orchestral pieces) and, indeed, Sorabji.

I was thinking of Eli Parish.

Thal

[ahinton]

Praise be to Allah for that.

Allah in in no wise responsible for the fact of my having no control over this, which is hardly either surprising or unreasonable, as I am not a Muslim.

You would be letting every bugger in

I did not say that I would and, in any event, I wouldn't, nor did I mention buggery as a qualifying or disqualifying category. I merely pointed out that to seek to impose a blanket no-exceptions ban on Muslim immigrants to UK on the hopelessly weak and untenable pretext of trying to prevent the tiny minority of undesirable ones from entering would be internationally unacceptable; UN would never permit any of its member states (and almost all countries are UN member states) to operate such an inhuman policy of mass religious or racial discrimination.

You have berated Angela Merkel for her policy in allowing more than 1m new immigrants into Germany; in agreeing with you to the extent that this was too many for that country in so short a space of time and in stating that some of them should therefore have been sent instead to other countries, it is important to point out that by no means all of those additional immigrants are Muslim in any case.

OK, I've said that I'm not in charge of this kind of thing; if you were, how would you have immigration officials vet all would-be entrants for suitability? In other words, what parameters would you set for determining whether each individual be permitted to enter or be reused entry to UK? You could, for example, cite English language proficiency (for what that might be worth in this context) because this can easily be determined by means of interview, but how would anyone be able to determine whether a would-be entrant is anti-Western, is of might become a Jihadist or other terrorist or has some other criminal record and is therefore undesirable? You could hardly include in an an application form questions like
1. Do you belong to a religious group? if so, which one?
2. Do you have a history of participation in or encouragement of terrorist activity?
3. Do you have a history of racism, including but not limited to abuse, propaganda and attack?
3. Do you intend to commit terrorist atrocities or other crimes against persons or property in UK?
4. Do you intend to radicalise members of your own or other religious groups already living in UK?
That would be risible, so what would you see as a viable, practical and constructive alternative?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Perhaps all the Syrian Muslims would be better off going there.

Given political relations between the two countries, I very much doubt that, but what would you recommend for the Syrian non-Muslims wanting to escape and go elsewhere?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I was thinking of Eli Parish.

I bet he wasn't a Muslim!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

OK, I've said that I'm not in charge of this kind of thing; if you were, how would you have immigration officials vet all would-be entrants for suitability?

Perhaps we need to write to the Mayor of Mecca (if they have one) and find out how they keep out all the Christians.

Thal

[hardy_practice]

Praise be to Allah for that. You would be letting every bugger in.

So, homophobic to boot!

[ahinton]

Perhaps we need to write to the Mayor of Mecca (if they have one) and find out how they keep out all the Christians.

You can write to him if you so wish. Mecca is governed by the Municipality of Mecca, a municipal council of fourteen locally elected members headed by a mayor (called an Al-Amin) appointed by the Saudi government. As of May 2015, the mayor of the city was Dr. Osama bin Fadhel Al-Bar. If you do so, I think that you would might be better advised to enquire why and indeed whether and how the Christians are all kept out!

I'm sorry that I cannot provide you with his email address but suggest that you write to wjeddah@kln.gov.my which is the email address for the Malaysian Consulate General in Jeddah at Lot 241, Al-Mualiffin Street
Al Rehab District
P.O Box 593
21421 JEDDAH
Saudi Arabia
(telephone 00 96 612 672 7740 or 00 96 612 672 8019, fax 00 96 612 676 0877); they might be able to provide it to you or forward an emaikl from you to him.

I wish you luck with this, should you decide to proceed and am sure that I'll be far from alone in being interested in the response that you receive, if any.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

So, homophobic to boot!

Definitely not.

It is my support for equality for homosexuals which leads me to be Islamophobic if anything.

Thal

[hardy_practice]

Definitely not.

It is my support for equality for homosexuals which leads me to be Islamophobic if anything.

Thal

So why the deep fear of buggers?