So, I went busking today...

[josh93248]

I pretty much busk for a living. I have a piano keyboard (a good Roland one) a battery set up and a couple other bits and pieces and it takes me a while to set up but I do okay mostly.

Today I was a bit mediocre to start, the wind was bad for one thing, and as I made my way through my hour 15 of rep I was getting frustrated. I don't really know how but I just began to play differently in about the last third of my session. I started playing REALLY boldly, doing accents, dynamic shifts, approaches of phrasing, tempo shifts, even adding notes (I was also generally faster) and all sorts of things. I feel like I tapped into exactly the thing I've wanted to for so long, my personal style, one that doesn't suit the connoisseur but rather the common person, something that gets their attention. I started making more money too and making far less mistakes.

I came home and played a bit more and found it hadn't gone away. I've felt a bit like the other times I've sort of overheated and played with great passion (this has never been really captured in my recordings) but this was the most extreme version of this (in terms of how much I liked the outcome and felt ordinary people would too.) I hope I can continue to play like this or at least recapture some of it.

I'm just done with playing the way that an examiner or an expert would expect me to. It's *** stupid. There is no future for piano and classical unless it reinvents itself completely. Maybe its arrogant to think I've found part of that reinvention but you know what? You're all a bunch of old farts who are doing fine, I barely scrape by and have to think seriously about what the future holds for myself in a dying world of music. I shouldn't care what anyone thinks but the open-minded. The past generation (perhaps not every last one of you) has utterly failed to reverse the decline of great music in the ways you've tried. Perhaps some might think this is a reaction to the Prelude I shared, it probably is, but it's also the consequence of all the frustration at the idiotic dogma that pervades classical and piano.

So guess what this means? You're going to bloody hate my Mozart when I share that....... More than I ever expected too.......

[cimirro]

Dear Joshua,
Since my English is not the best, I'm not sure if I understand pretty well your question (if there are any).
Anyway, I "cared to see your playing" (Bach little preludes, Schubert Waltz, Chopin Preludes, Scriabin Preludes)
While I think these are very beautiful music, I have to agree it is impossible to make a living in music playing such repertoire in a world where you have several recordings of this repertoire with big CD labels making the marketing of "best record ever" (even sometimes when the recording is terrible played...)

I'm a professional pianist and composer, and I understand we sholdn't care for critics unless we plan going mad.
Always someone is not happy with our playing and NOTHING will change it.
There are the ones who love, the ones who hate, and the ones wo don't care. ALWAYS!
And today in internet all the people act like critics even when all they know is nothing but a small box of recordings which someone told was "great" (and you can be sure it was Chopin, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, etc.

So, yes, you need to find your voice, and finding the way of your own playing is the great point.
I would recommend you, If can I recommend something at all, to expand your repertoire and think seriously about other composers - the "unknown" ones. The music was not an invention by Chopin. Mozart, Beethoven and Bach, they are genious, but not the only ones. And while most part of the people are extreme devoted to these composers and say they love classical music, they even don't know 10% of the piano repertoire because we have more than 1000 genial composers to learn about.

On the other hand, if you think you need "change" the music while playing, please consider the possibility of studying composition, you can be a composer and find your own voice as a player.
I'm not sure how much "changes" you did at home, I just hope you have not believed that the future is to play "jazz-like" on Bach, Chopin or Mozart, which is not somthing new and is also a dead market unless you have a huge marketing behind you - and if you have a huge marketing behind you no matters what you play, actually you will not need to play, sing or whatever, you probably know medias like TV, right?

Coming back to your recordings, I see you have played some pieces quite well, although your Chopin raindrop is extremely slow in some parts which we will expect more, I don't think there is a "only one" way of playing such music, but there are some "vicious" changings of time in your playing which is shown basically in all your recordings (not sure how much time you studied before playing each one, so this can be an interesting topic to think about). Anyway, no doubts, you are able to express something with music in a world where several professional pianits are not more than trained monkeys.

In my opinion, you are not choosing an interesting repertoire for someone who wants to make a living as a professional pianist. You are choosing beautiful music, no doubts, anyway every piano student in the world can play it.

I hope my words does not makes you feel bad, and really hope it will make you think good things.
and, if there is any interest from your part, I'll be happy to share some tips if you send me a PM with your "doubts" (if any)

Best

[josh93248]

Thanks for responding to my perhaps ill tempered rant.

Thanks for looking at my playing, Perhaps I'll check out your own if you care to share it.

I'm not at all interested in participating in pianism in the traditional way. CDs are dead. I make music online and there are a lot ways I intend to do it apart from just recording classical piano interpretations.

Yes my repertoire contains a lot of things that are insignificant and easy, deliberately so. I wanted to rebuild my playing after going too far too fast, it seems to be working. I also play a number of more ambitious pieces to be recorded when I feel ready.

Yes, I've noticed some people are very satisfied and some are never. It's an interesting phenomenon of subjectivity.

I've given thought to working more on smaller composers. I actually do to some extent, I play Shostakovich, Mussorgsky and even a friend's piece he dedicated to me. I also plan to play a number of works by Borodin and a few others like maybe Hummel, Dussek and Bomtempo.

But I do think I could potentially come up with interpretations of the core repertoire that are original and challenge the established recordings... perhaps... I want to try it at any rate.

Frankly doing composition is not the only answer. What is wrong with radical reinterpretation. I hate to shout but it needs to be said THE TRADITION OF MESSING WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S MUSIC IS *OLDER* THAN THE TRADITION OF STRICTLY ADHERING TO THEIR GUESSED AT WISHES!!!!!!!

But that said, I do plan to compose as well. I'm struggling through a theory book and writing a bit. Actually had some good ideas yesterday...

I would not describe my creative decisions as Jazz like but sure, that should be considered legitimate too.

As for my recordings... They represent progression more than peak. I put a lot of effort into them and I think they have merit. Some people quite like them. My Raindrop has been divisive, but that's fine, you know what? It attracted more conversation than a lot of fine but traditionalist recordings made and posted recently so there's that...

I would tend to agree my rep is not that interesting. That was actually why I chose it, to ruin some mediocre pieces whilst I built up my abilities.

But hey, thanks for writing. I'm going to play how I like, I'm going to play what I like, I'm going to make it work and I'm going to enjoy what I do. You mean well to me, I appreciate that but I'm better off trying to hit the target no one sees rather than the target everyone is already aiming at. Maybe what I'm trying for and want to accomplish won't become clear for a while...

[iansinclair]

Calm down.  Relax.  And enjoy making your music exactly the way you want to.  Busking is wonderful -- I've done a fair amount of it, years ago, but with a guitar and my voice (we didn't have portable keyboards back then!).

Do not ignore the work of the truly great performers -- whether jazz or classical, it doesn't matter -- they all have something worthwhile, or they wouldn't be great.  But you don't have to imitate them slavishly, either.

[josh93248]

Calm down.  Relax.  And enjoy making your music exactly the way you want to.  Busking is wonderful -- I've done a fair amount of it, years ago, but with a guitar and my voice (we didn't have portable keyboards back then!).

Do not ignore the work of the truly great performers -- whether jazz or classical, it doesn't matter -- they all have something worthwhile, or they wouldn't be great.  But you don't have to imitate them slavishly, either.

Thanks, I will try to do what you say. I don't listen to Jazz much but I enjoyed the hell out of a recorded Hiromi concert. Busking today might have even got me a local student

Don't mind me, I'm sort of a classical guerrilla, always fighting for causes to extreme and too dead to care about. Oh well, I enjoy being angry at the establishment I guess so there's that.

[cimirro]

Thanks for responding to my perhaps ill tempered rant.

Sometimes it is better deal with ill tempered people than with the ones who always answers "yes"

Thanks for looking at my playing, Perhaps I'll check out your own if you care to share it.

... done as you wish!

-> https://www.arturcimirro.com.br/en_videos.htm

I'm not at all interested in participating in pianism in the traditional way. CDs are dead. I make music online and there are a lot ways I intend to do it apart from just recording classical piano interpretations.

I agree CDs are dying. "Online" is a huge place full of people, but hardly they have interest in ANY classical repertoire...

But I do think I could potentially come up with interpretations of the core repertoire that are original and challenge the established recordings... perhaps... I want to try it at any rate.

Frankly doing composition is not the only answer. What is wrong with radical reinterpretation. I hate to shout but it needs to be said THE TRADITION OF MESSING WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S MUSIC IS *OLDER* THAN THE TRADITION OF STRICTLY ADHERING TO THEIR GUESSED AT WISHES!!!!!!!

But that said, I do plan to compose as well. I'm struggling through a theory book and writing a bit. Actually had some good ideas yesterday...

Yes, everyone can come up with a new interesting interpretation, the problem again is finding the public to make a living.
Nothing is wrong with "radical interpretations", you just need the right public for such reinterpretation.
At some point you may arrive at the "paraphrases" subject, which I really like, it is more than just a "reinterpretation" of a piece, it actually changes the order of the musical themes and structures. But of course, you must decide what you have to "tell" to the public - not necessarily it will be a paraphrase or a new "arrangement", maybe just a different approach.
The most important thing is: you must know something about it before saying what you prefer - so this is why I recommend more variety in repertoire.
You have your own view, and you will keep it, just try to be sure your "changings" are created by the deep knowledge of your repertoire and not by traditional mistakes of student days and you will be in "safe".

I would not describe my creative decisions as Jazz like but sure, that should be considered legitimate too.

I have nothing against Jazz too. I just think "creativity" is far bigger than making "jazz effects" and alterations on music which I have seen in a famous musician recently (not you)

But hey, thanks for writing. I'm going to play how I like, I'm going to play what I like, I'm going to make it work and I'm going to enjoy what I do. You mean well to me, I appreciate that but I'm better off trying to hit the target no one sees rather than the target everyone is already aiming at. Maybe what I'm trying for and want to accomplish won't become clear for a while...

My pleasure.
Yes, you need to make your own way - that is the most important step.
Just take care when the target means Chopin, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. Because most part of pianists of th world are playing these pieces because it is what they like, how they like, they are making it work and enjoying what they do, exactly as you are planning.

Best
Artur Cimirro

[cimirro]

duplicated message by strange reason  

[timothy42b]

Yes, everyone can come up with a new interesting interpretation, the problem again is finding the public to make a living.

But this is where busking excels. 

To make a living, you need to be able to perceive what others will like, not what your inner passion wants to produce.  (nice if you can align the two - but you gotta pay the bills) 

That's not an easy skill to develop.  Famously Joshua Bell failed miserably, despite his credentials as an awesome player. 

[cimirro]

But this is where busking excels. 

To make a living, you need to be able to perceive what others will like, not what your inner passion wants to produce.  (nice if you can align the two - but you gotta pay the bills) 

That's not an easy skill to develop.  Famously Joshua Bell failed miserably, despite his credentials as an awesome player. 

Dear Timothy
Probably I had misunderstood the word "busk" while reading/translating (i'm not from an English speaking country). Thank you.

On the other hand I see no problems in align "make a living" and "doing what I want".
the main problem in my opinion is that most part of musicians and people in general are not open-minded when the topic is repertoire - Normally I would say they are "lazy"...

Joshua plays pieces no one can say: "Oh, I hate it" (beautiful music beautifully played)
So why it is not easy to make a living? Because we have too much the same in the market!
and why? are these composers the only ones? NO.

The huge recording companies which still can produce recordings are full of new Chopin CDs each year. With mong-mong, puing-puing, and several pianists full of "marketing" from contacts, Chopin competitions, etc
And believe or not few really makes any difference in their playing except in the rubato and speed. Normally it is more an exercise of their vanity than music itself.
Well, I just can't believe they don't do what they want, most part of pianists dream in recording Chopin, good for them
but I'm sad to think most part of pianists aren't able to mention more than 20 composers from one period without using internet some seconds before...

I discovered lots of music which I love to play, and I'm recording them, good for me, of course.
I just think that we are free to play what we want, but more important is to know what we have available in the world first, so we will enjoy much more than only Chopin music (for example) and we will have more possibilities to make something that serves for living and for our personal taste at the same time.
By the way, how many sets of Chopin etudes are available? do we need another one? will this recording be SO different that no other can sound similar...? well, maybe...but  i haven't found a too different, yet.

While the idea of Joshua is good for him now, it can be dangerous if he never find the right place in the right time with the right people... But of course, it is very important to do what you want to get a better result. I just would say "open your eyes for the huge repertoire we have", and of course, play the famous masters if you like, specially if you have something quite new to "tell" with them. (Imitate others is just vanity not art.)

best

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Anyone can be a critic. There are good critics and bad. Bad critics comment as a mechanism for reinforcing their own prejudices and to reaffirm that "they are right" (often they aren't). Good critics have an overview of musical history and tradition, why things tend to get done in a certain way, and are hopefully open to new ideas. I agree with a lot of what you say. The CD is all but dead, and the world is open to new methods of dissemination. One of the many problems is that so many people have latched on to this, and to be heard one has to compete with the good, the indifferent, and a hell of a lot of the downright awful.

You have ideas - not ideas that everyone agrees with - but at least you do have ideas in the first place. You may find that, as you develop, you acquire an understanding of why and when performers choose to conform. The only apparent misconception I can find in your statements is what I presume to be an assumption that some of us don't play as you do because of lack of imagination, or through conditioning through training. Some certainly will have considered no-holds-barred, for lack of a better term, interpretations. Ultimately decisions do get made vis-a-vis acceptability versus the unrestrained; that doesn't mean a more conformist decision is the correct one. As far as I'm concerned, a performer should play in the manner he wishes, but the flipside of that is that he may have to accept the disapproval of the audience or the critics. Whatever works for you, do it. Just be aware many will disagree.
 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The huge recording companies which still can produce recordings are full of new Chopin CDs each year. With mong-mong, puing-puing, and several pianists full of "marketing" from contacts, Chopin competitions, etc
And believe or not few really makes any difference in their playing except in the rubato and speed. Normally it is more an exercise of their vanity than music itself.
Well, I just can't believe they don't do what they want, most part of pianists dream in recording Chopin, good for them
but I'm sad to think most part of pianists aren't able to mention more than 20 composers from one period without using internet some seconds before...

I discovered lots of music which I love to play, and I'm recording them, good for me, of course.
I just think that we are free to play what we want, but more important is to know what we have available in the world first, so we will enjoy much more than only Chopin music (for example) and we will have more possibilities to make something that serves for living and for our personal taste at the same time.
By the way, how many sets of Chopin etudes are available? do we need another one? will this recording be SO different that no other can sound similar...? well, maybe...but  i haven't found a too different, yet.

I absolutely agree.  Who cares about the 355th recording of the etudes, other than marketing people and people who've never heard Cortot, Rubinstein, François and others, even Cziffra?

The thread isn't about me, but my refusal to conform to "tradition" manifests itself in playing music by good composers nobody cares about. There is a such a wealth of piano literature it is a shame to not explore it. There are many ways to combat lazy thinking!

[quantum]

Advice given to writers/authors can also be applied here: understand your role as writer, and understand your reader's role.  If you are constantly getting a response such as - who cares about that topic - then you are presenting your writing to the wrong group of people.  If you gauged your readers appropriately, your readers will evaluate your work favorably.  

Likewise in music, you must understand your listener.  There will always be people that dislike what you do, but the flip side is there will always be people that are intrigued by what you do.  Put some thought to whom you are making music for.  

For someone that depends on music making as a major portion of their income it is especially important to understand who you are making the music for.  Yes, there is music making for personal and self-fulfillment goals, but when one is also making music for a living it is important to distinguish the activities.  Making music for income means you need to give your paying customer what they want (or at least make them think they are getting what they asked for), even if it may diverge from your personal interests at times.  You can find listeners close to your ideal, but chances are there will be times you may have to play things you don't want, in a manner you don't like - and that is completely okay as long as you understand you are doing this for income.  Smile and carry on.  In no way does it reflect a divergence of your philosophical ideals - you are earning an income at the end of the day.

[adodd81802]

I don't busk, but in my shopping center they have a little grand that anyone can inquire and play. I actually play there to practice performing infront of people and testing my knowledge of pieces I am playing, it's somewhat more relaxing when you know people aren't truly paying attention, and always a little rush when you hear someone's footsteps stop or nudge their partner as they say "look how good he is"

What I've concluded is an echo of what's being said here - know your audience.

You don't play the entertainer at a funeral, no matter how original your interpretation is.

You have 2 options, I find when it comes to busking in general public

1. Play what people know - particularly those that do not usually listen to classical - make sure it's upbeat, loud and grabs their attention.

2. Play flashy music - it doesn't matter if it's not perfect, a few bum notes, or a restart because you mess up - people will more likely stop and watch you play half of a Chopin etude at 3/4 speed (mine is the op.10 no.5) than they will a perfect rendition of the slow movement of moonlight sonata....

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I like playing on street pianos. Something flashy, Casta diva, or bits of the Warsaw Concerto usually work well.

[quantum]

You don't play the entertainer at a funeral, no matter how original your interpretation is.

As a church musician, playing funerals being part of the job, I would say it is wise to play what the family requests even if it verges on the ridiculous - they are the people paying you for your services.  So if that family wants the Entertainer and the Priest-in-charge approves, you play it. 

This ties in to what I wrote above in a previous post: differentiate between what you do to make income, and what you do for personal artistic endeavors.

[timothy42b]

This ties in to what I wrote above in a previous post: differentiate between what you do to make income, and what you do for personal artistic endeavors.

There's an old saying among performers:  to succeed, you play three tunes for the crowd and one for the band. 

Knowing what really appeals to the crowd is not a trivial problem.  That's where busking can give you valuable feedback, if you pay attention. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Knowing what really appeals to the crowd is not a trivial problem.  That's where busking can give you valuable feedback, if you pay attention. 

Agreed. It's a more honest event than a public recital, if you ask me. People will just ignore you if you don't grab their attention.

[benjdod]

Ya know, Horowitz's interpretations weren't exactly conventional either.  Just wanted to toss that in there...

[mjames]

Just don't make the mistake of assuming that people who dislike your ideas are old-fashioned and conventional.

And in regards to the Horowitz comment, being unconventional isn't exactly a merit in of itself. If that were the case then everyone could be classified as geniuses. There's a lot more to Horowitz's talent than just being unconventional. I know that that's not what you were trying to say, but I felt like I just had to get that point across.

[visitor]

Just don't make the mistake of assuming that people who dislike your ideas are old-fashioned and conventional.

And in regards to the Horowitz comment, being unconventional isn't exactly a merit in of itself. If that were the case then everyone could be classified as geniuses. There's a lot more to Horowitz's talent than just being unconventional. I know that that's not what you were trying to say, but I felt like I just had to get that point across.

i concur.
as for 'unconvetnional' i don't like that term much it's incomplete. it's more accurate to say he, and other 'virtuosos' showed uncommon (but successfully executed) creativity.  even if 'different' to some extent , the expression in an uncommon manner still worked. ie they are good a the types of artistic risks they take, and they just have a knack for making tasteful decisions that come from within themselves vs. established tradition.

[quantum]

it's more accurate to say he, and other 'virtuosos' showed uncommon (but successfully executed) creativity.  even if 'different' to some extent , the expression in an uncommon manner still worked. ie they are good a the types of artistic risks they take, and they just have a knack for making tasteful decisions that come from within themselves vs. established tradition.

Excellent point.

IMO, regardless of the artistic decision you  make - whether it be traditional, period practice, purist, urtext enthusiast, unorthodox, unconventional, or insert-your-label-here - the ideas need to be successfully executed.  It is not enough to have a great idea, a musician needs to be able to successfully execute that idea and communicate it to their listener.  When that happens the musician establishes a connection with their listeners: a dialogue. 

[timothy42b]

  When that happens the musician establishes a connection with their listeners: a dialogue. 

Getting philosophical here, but something from a book on church music caught my attention:

Music exists on a continuum from shallow to profound.  Listeners exist on a continuum from fully and actively engaged to detached and disinterested.  Communication requires aligning the two where they need to be. 

[j_tour]

Just wanted to say thumbs up.  I've carried my Rhodes on a handtruck to jobs around town, and often thought it would be cool to rig up a little amp+speaker+power supply, but I never got around to it.

Pathetic as it sounds, I'm kind of living vicariously through you. 

I hope you keep it up.

I always had this fantasy of finding a little Roland Cube or something and hauling the Rhodes down and just having a little jam with whatever other street performers were out there (yeah, I know, we'd probably never settle in one key and the guitarist would be too loud , but that's nothing new!), but it never seemed worth my time and effort.

[josh93248]

Hi guys, just wanted to thank you all for your responses.

I'd like to address what you've all said but I actually don't disagree all that much with pretty much anything so take that how you like

Oh, and j_tour, thanks I don't mind being your surrogate (I think?) I hope you enjoy the crap out of my work and I hope you keep telling me what you think

[j_tour]

I get it now -- I was a bit confused and missed the "pretty much busking" part.  I thought you were actually using a battery-powered little combo amp and literally working out on the street corner.

Yeah, I've enjoyed your music in the past, and wish you the best.

I think in a sense, everyone's kind of busking in this day and age of trying to keep up with videos and finding server space and so forth.

A bit of an idiotic comment, mine, but, hey, I catch on eventually!  Keep it up.

Come to think of it, IME it's not too far off, the scenario of being hassled by fellow street performers, fighting for turf, having the loud guitarist, "interesting" interpretations of "hey what key are we in now," and all that. 

In that respect, I should be glad to stay inside and take advantage of technology!

[josh93248]

Actually J tour, I do mean busking. I generally busk at shopping centres. I also do concerts in Aged care homes. As for doing work on the internet, haven't made a dime, but I hope to one day.