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Topic: Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play? (Read 6837 times)

marijn1999

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Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play?

on: October 19, 2016, 07:36:32 PM

Hi guys,

So, I'm entering a piano competition soon and the auditions are in februari 2017. You can play for ten minutes maximum and play pretty much whatever you want. I chose to play Brahms Ballade in B minor, Op. 10/3 and Contrapunctus 4 or 9 from the Art of Fugue. I can play both of them hands seperate at the right tempo. Which one do you think is more difficult to put together hands together and which one is more difficult in general?

Link is here ('cause I don't know how to insert sheet music links

), btw I use an Urtext one not this overly edited one:

https://ks.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c/ca/IMSLP25133-PMLP05843-Bach_ArtOfFugue_Czerny_Kalmus.pdf

Pages 9-12 and 27-30

Thanks in advance,
Marijn

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j_tour

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Re: Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play?

Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 06:17:06 PM

The 4th fugue from *Art of the Fugue* is on my short list of things to learn when I get a chance, so that's my vote.

I don't really have any deep reason, I just like it, is all.

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marijn1999

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Posts: 170

Re: Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play?

Reply #2 on: October 22, 2016, 07:04:22 AM

Quote from: j_tour on October 21, 2016, 06:17:06 PM

The 4th fugue from *Art of the Fugue* is on my short list of things to learn when I get a chance, so that's my vote.

I don't really have any deep reason, I just like it, is all.

Thanks! But which one do you think is more difficult?

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j_tour

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Re: Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play?

Reply #3 on: October 22, 2016, 08:47:50 PM

Oh, I'd have to look or listen -- I don't remember the 9th one off the top of my head.

Wait a minute, you included a nice link -- I think I might have the same Czerny pdf at home.

I don't recall the various performances of either with any precision, but I can tell you my immediate impression of the 9th is that it looks shockingly similar to the G major Sinfonia, so probably about that level of difficulty. I can foresee you having to scrupulously decide fingerings if you want to hold each voice for its true value (it's tough to say without playing through it if some of the indicated values are just pro forma, and physically cannot be held on a single-manual keyboard).

Musically, I would say the 4th is more involved, I guess is the right word. If you hold to basic ideas of the rough tempi (and I don't know why not -- seems about right). The 9th seems shorter and more like a bourrée, perhaps.

I would find it easier to memorize quickly the 9th, once the fingerings are figured out, and maybe it could be a nice bravura kind of piece, done lightly and precisely.

I suppose it depends what you want, since you have to pick one or the other and can't, I suppose, do them both.

Disclaimer, I'm not a Bach expert or anything -- just my rough opinions, probably worse than some, better than others. Certainly no better than your own ideas!

ETA nice choice on the Brahms Ballade -- to refresh my memory, I looked up Michelangeli's performance, and you've inspired me to try to at least hack my way sight-reading this when I get home. Always nice to rediscover some music you've never played and haven't heard in a long time. Thanks!

EETA

OK, I think the 9th contrapunctus is a nicer contrast to the Brahms, personally. And on this I think I can say with a little more confidence than my rambling about looking at the score. Brahms never did anything remotely similar to the brisk little #IX, whereas the tendency to have a turgid kind of tempo on #IV is likely too attractive to resist.

If I were to vote, I'd pay money to hear someone play the Brahms with the Bach IX sooner than with the Bach IV, just because the contrast is more amusing to me.

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j_tour

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Re: Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play?

Reply #4 on: October 28, 2016, 09:00:44 PM

OK, I played through the Contrapunctus IX yesterday for a few minutes (a few voices at a time -- I'm a good sightreader, but not good enough to play anything except a trivial fugue with any command from sight).

Yes, I was right, there are quite a few "problematic" areas of conflicting/overlapping/impossible voices for the keyboard. Czerny seems to do OK enough for a quick gloss, but IMHO, this is a terrible edition, despite getting all the notes in the right places and being sort of playable at sight.

I'll have to look for an open score without the moveable clef (yes, I know, I fail as a musician, but I effing can't play off that), but also I'm wondering myself, since I'm growing more ambitious as a musician, whether or it's worth spending the time searching out a better edition (I made good use of Busoni for the Sinfonias -- obviously out of time with his notation of ornaments, but he's the only "practical-for-the-ready-to-go-piano-player" Bach editor) or just making do with the plaintext and, if need be (for me, it likely is -- I need the reinforcement of a good score when my memory needs refreshing) just rewriting it out either longhand or in lilypond.

Well, my opinion still stands -- the IX is probably easier when you figure out how to finger it and divide the hands, but looking back, the IV is, ISTM, much less complicated to make such decisions. I don't know what the trade-off is, really -- you could certainly "get away with" dropping some voices in the IX, and making life easier but this is some competition or something, so one presumes you have an aware audience.

All I can say after reading the IX and knowing the IV on the back-burner, they're both fugues, and to do either one is about the same "difficulty" -- meh, depends on your strengths as a performer and analyst.

Still, a nicer contrast to the Brahms (I did indeed read through the Brahms Ballade -- that's good old Brahms, trying to make a mountain out of........never mind, it's good if you want to play a lot of octaves) than the Ars.IV.

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My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America. Bad word make me sad.

j_tour

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Re: Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play?

Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 01:07:39 AM

Oh, for an update -- I'll try to minimize the word-salad, talking-out-of-my a**, over the past week or so I've been playing around with the open score of the contrapunctus IX.

I suppose at this point I might as well put in the little bit of extra time and make a piano arrangement of it, but I'm happy to report that, as far as I can recall, the fugue is very well suited to playing on piano (or, I suppose, harpsichord, if you're one of those

), with preserving the note durations in each voice.

The one thing that sort of bothers me is that there's a spot (I just checked, and I didn't bring my score with me, so I can't easily give the bar number), let's say around measure 80 or so, where the subject enters in the soprano and, for the life of me, I can't figure out a good way to use the trill.

I was looking at it last night, and there is a way to make the trill, but it's kind of over-complicated, for my tastes, and Glenn Gould didn't make the trill there either, so I guess I'll ignore it, but not be very happy about it.

Am I alone in my judgment that the keyboard arrangements I've seen are, while serviceable, I guess, are completely inferior to using the open score and making your own choices?

Clearly, I'm not a Bach expert, but it seems the only way to me.

ETA oh, I forgot to add, for me one of the more amusing bits is (again, I don't have my score with me), but somewhere towards the end -- I can't be the only one who noticed that Gould nicked a bit for his "So You Want to Write a Fugue" (the part that is sung, "so go ahead and write it") from a little bit towards the end of the Contrap.IX.

It's a nice bonus.

Disclaimer, I'm not trying to proselytize for Gould -- I went through a Gould phase in high school, about the same time I listened to Eric Clapton and Jimmy Page.

I just think it's neat to observe things, is all.

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My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America. Bad word make me sad.

j_tour

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Posts: 4161

Re: Which fugue from the Art of Fugue should I play?

Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 01:38:56 AM

Oh yeah -- back to the OP, yes, the Contrap.IX is very playable on piano. I haven't at this point done anything with the Contrap.IV, but with the open score and working out your own arrangement, IX is within anyone's grasp. There are some challenges when the theme is stated in RH and you have to make the voices clear when the subject enters with an interval of a major second, in, say fingers 4 and 5 in RH, but that's not a technical problem as long as you remember where the subject is stated.

The only difficulties I can see are that it should be phrased correctly, and that it's a pretty long fugue, and it's apparently pretty famous as a piece, so maybe people judge you extra-hard against their own preconceptions of "the way the song goes."

If you just want points for a competition and have to do a "serious fugue," the cynical person might pick something like the E major fugue from WTCII, or the stretto fugue in C from WTCI, but I like the contrapunctusIX, because it's brisk and fun, and has some nice challenges when arranging it for keyboard.

Or, as an alternative, one thing I've been doing for the past two weeks is the C-minor fugue from WTCI together with Slonimsky's "Bach in Fluid Tonality" minitude and NS's other minitude based on the Bach with the whole-tone.

But, then again, I'm the kind of person who, when asked to play "Happy Birthday" at a party, uses Slonimsky's "Happy Birthday" minitude, or does it in a southern baptist church gospel style, so I just have a perverse sense of humor.

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My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America. Bad word make me sad.

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