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Topic: Difficulty of Etudes  (Read 16967 times)

Offline bravuraoctaves

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Difficulty of Etudes
on: January 08, 2005, 11:41:43 AM
I would really like to try a vituoistic etude one day, but I usually unintentionally pick the difficult ones.

Could you supply a list of the Liszt etudes and Chopin etudes in order of difficulty (In one big list).

PS. A list of the Ligeti etudes in order of difficulty would also be apprieciated.

Offline Etude

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #1 on: January 08, 2005, 12:39:39 PM
This is how I would order the etudes:
[easiest to hardest:]

Chopin
op. 10:  6,3,5,7,9,10,11,4,1,12,4,2
op. 25   7,9,1,2,3,5,12,4,8,10,11,6

Liszt
Etude en 12 exercises
Grande Etudes de Paganini: 5,2,4,1,3,6
Etudes d'execution trancendente apres Paganini - 5,2,3,1,6,4i,4ii
Transcendental etudes: 3,1,7,4,9,10,11,2,6,8,12,5
12 Grande Etudes: 1,3,4,9,10,7,6,2,11,12,8,5

I'm sorry I can't give you one big list because there are just too many here.  Maybe someone else can.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #2 on: January 08, 2005, 02:15:16 PM
I will try to rank the Ligeti etudes for you, but please don't take this list as being definitive in any way-this is only my opinion based on playing some and sight reading through all of them at least a few times (as well as some imput by someone who has played them all).

roughly easiest to hardest:

(5,2,11,8),(3,4,10,12),(7,9,6),(13,1,14,14a)

I have sort of grouped the etudes also-those in these groups are fairly interchangeable I'd say, depending upon your individual technical strengths and weaknesses.  Group one is challenging, but not unplayable at all-I'd say sort of late intermediate to early advanced.  Group 2 is difficult.  Group 3 is very difficult, I'd say, and the fourth group are extremely so-I would venture 14a is nearly unplayable accurately and at tempo.

Offline pianiststrongbad

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #3 on: January 08, 2005, 05:08:40 PM
Personally I never found Op. 10 no. 12 or Op. 25 no. 12 to be that difficult.  I think they should be closer to the easy side.

Offline maxy

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #4 on: January 08, 2005, 06:50:46 PM
I will disagree with Etude_de_Concert ...

Liszt TE: Mazeppa is NOT one of the easiest, 8 and 6 are NOT some of the hardest.

Since you are looking for "études de virtuosité" I find 8 to be a good starting point for the set. 

For Chopin you may want to try op10: 4-12  op25: 11-12
My suggestions are based on virtuosity/straightforward pieces...  no subtle stuff...

Offline bravuraoctaves

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #5 on: January 08, 2005, 07:33:26 PM
Since you are looking for "études de virtuosité" I find 8 to be a good starting point for the set.

Do you spread the chords on the first page that you can't reach all the notes or do you miss out some notes??

Thanks for your kind replies,

Offline anda

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #6 on: January 08, 2005, 09:40:00 PM
This is how I would order the etudes:
[easiest to hardest:]
Chopin
op. 10:  6,3,5,7,9,10,11,4,1,12,4,2
op. 25   7,9,1,2,3,5,12,4,8,10,11,6

you find op. 10 no. 6 and op. 25 no. 7 easy??? these are the most difficult - musically speaking! so complex and intricate...

imo:

op.10: 5, 9, 4, 8, 11, 3, 12, 7, 6, 1, 10, 2
op.25: 2, 9, 4, 5, 1, 3, 10, 12, 7, 6, 8, 11

Offline Etude

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #7 on: January 08, 2005, 10:57:56 PM


you find op. 10 no. 6 and op. 25 no. 7 easy??? these are the most difficult - musically speaking! so complex and intricate...

I realise this, but since bravuraoctaves is asking about virtuosic etudes, I am simply trying to order them based on their technical difficulty.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #8 on: January 09, 2005, 12:37:33 AM
About the Chopin etudes, I'll give rough orders for my opinion of the difficulties in each opus.

easiest to hardest:

op. 10: #6,9,3,7,12,5,11,8,10,4,1,2
op. 25: #2,1,9,7,3,5,10,12,8,4,6,11

Offline jazzyprof

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #9 on: January 09, 2005, 02:10:11 AM
Clearly, difficulty like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  But one thing seems to be universally agreed upon here: Chopin Op. 10, No.2 is one hard pregnant cat.
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy, next to my wife; it is my most absorbing interest, next to my work." ...Charles Cooke

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #10 on: January 09, 2005, 12:23:40 PM
Hi,

you cant really say wich etude is hardest or easiest.
everybody has different qualityes.
For me, somehow op10#2 and op25#10 is not so hard....

Gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline musicsdarkangel

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #11 on: January 09, 2005, 05:37:34 PM
Well, I am not done with all of the etudes yet, but I honestly believe that the Winterwind (Op 25 no 11) and the one in thirds (Op 25 no 6) are the hardest.


I think the first etude difficulty really depends on the size of your hand.  I have fairly flexible hands, so it wasn't tough, nor was the 2nd etude.  However, the ocean etude gave me problems until I finally mastered it this year.  I guess it really does depend on the pianist.

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #12 on: January 09, 2005, 05:43:06 PM
Not being able to play them all myself some might say I am not able to comment here but here's my penny worth! I am most familiar with the Chopin etudes and my experience with them has taught me that some which I have tackled (supposedly fearsome and only for 'true virtuosi') were actually for me not anything like as difficult as ones I was told are 'straightforward'. Really all virtuoso etudes have some main difficulty to overcome. (straightforward point I know) but if you can grasp hold of that concept early on in the learning process - you've nailed it. Each of us are better at tackling certain things - so really it's about finding what resonates with you and just working at it and percevering. Perceverance is needed for ALL virtuoso etudes so the most important thing is to find one that you really like and I would suggest if you haven't done any before choose one that has a clear aim and not one that has multiple technical and musical difficulties as this could end up as a discouraging experience. A good teacher should be able to direct you to where your technical and musical strenghts lie and help you choose a suitable one for your current attainment and map out a plan for your future technical development.
Good Luck whichever one you tackle. Remember enjoy the learning process

Offline Nordlys

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #13 on: January 09, 2005, 08:20:58 PM
I will try to rank the Ligeti etudes for you, but please don't take this list as being definitive in any way-this is only my opinion based on playing some and sight reading through all of them at least a few times (as well as some imput by someone who has played them all).

roughly easiest to hardest:

(5,2,11,8),(3,4,10,12),(7,9,6),(13,1,14,14a)

I have sort of grouped the etudes also-those in these groups are fairly interchangeable I'd say, depending upon your individual technical strengths and weaknesses.  Group one is challenging, but not unplayable at all-I'd say sort of late intermediate to early advanced.  Group 2 is difficult.  Group 3 is very difficult, I'd say, and the fourth group are extremely so-I would venture 14a is nearly unplayable accurately and at tempo.

Interesting.


abc, which ones did you play?
I have had a brief look at some of them. I was extremely fasinated by a performance of the "Zauberlehrling" (no.10), and was thinking about trying to play it. But after looking at it I soon changed my mind! And this one you only place in the second group? It will depend on the tempo of course, but the notes should "blend into one another".

Fortunately, some of the easier ones are also quite nice, for example no. 5 "Arc-en-ciel".

Offline Awakening

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #14 on: January 11, 2005, 03:30:21 AM


you find op. 10 no. 6 and op. 25 no. 7 easy??? these are the most difficult - musically speaking! so complex and intricate...

imo:

op.10: 5, 9, 4, 8, 11, 3, 12, 7, 6, 1, 10, 2
op.25: 2, 9, 4, 5, 1, 3, 10, 12, 7, 6, 8, 11

Op.10/4 one of the easiset?  I've never looked at it, but am currently playing Op.10/12, and 4 seems infinitely more difficult.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #15 on: January 11, 2005, 01:06:17 PM
HI,

Sorry, i say it again, but it ISN'T POSSIBLE to say wich one are most difficult, because everyone has other quality's!
So everybody can say what he think is most difficult, but for sir bravuraoctaves it isnt very usefull.
The only thing you can say that is:
- If you have small hands, op10#2 and op25#10 are harder to play.
- op25#11 (winterwind) is in general hard to play, because its a high speed etude and multiple techniques are requierd.
- If you are left-handed, op10#12 will probably be easier.

Maybe you guys disagree, than you should debate why, so this post is useful for forumreaders and all discussions about difficulty of etudes (chopin) wont be necessary anymore.

Gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline anda

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #16 on: January 11, 2005, 07:34:09 PM
Op.10/4 one of the easiset?  I've never looked at it, but am currently playing Op.10/12, and 4 seems infinitely more difficult.

it's not, it's much simpler than it looks - that if you enjoy playing without moving your fingers (i love it, and it suites perfectly this etude)

Offline ragner

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #17 on: January 15, 2005, 01:48:42 PM
Hi,
Im piano student in Estonia Tallinn Music High School. Last course.
I think there is no point to make lists. :) Its very personal anyway.

hm.. but i found these pieces very hard :

Ligeti no 1. Desodre
Chopin: op 10. no 1 :) if u play this piece without problems you are master :)

Offline doug

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chopin etudes
Reply #18 on: January 15, 2005, 07:32:58 PM
Nevermind, I answered my own question here

Offline Rach3

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #19 on: January 16, 2005, 12:57:32 AM
Apparently there is no consensus on this subject.

And by the way, 10/8 is not on the easy side of 10/4. It's much more evil than it looks, in fact the first list here completely leaves it out (and repeats 10/4 in two positions). 10/3 is definitely not the second easiest of the op. 10. And 25/12 is too far to the right in the most recent list.

Just my $.02

"Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them."
--Richard Wagner

Offline holden4th

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #20 on: January 19, 2005, 08:13:09 AM
If you have large strong hands try the Liszt TE No 11 (Harmonies du Soir)

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #21 on: January 19, 2005, 11:56:37 AM
My suggestion! Get a copy of Chopin, Liszt Debussy and Rachmaninov etudes out of the library and have a sightread through and see if there's anything which takes your fancy. Etudes by composers such as Ligeti and Rautavaara GREAT as they may be are perhaps not the most suitable if youve never tackled any virtuoso etudes before. I can only say that TRADITIONALLY ( whether right/wrong or plain heretical) students tend to be given Chopin Op10/3, 10/9, 10/12 Op25/2 (the butterfly - i forget the number) and the last one Op25/12 as first etudes. In terms of liszt no 1, and 3 of the transcendentals get handed out a lot in first and second year. Debussy nos 1, 2 and the one for 8 fingers (again i forget the number) Rachnaminov no2, 3 4 7 (op33)are played alot by students in first three years of under grad. The seconds set op39 are generally more complexed but some are ;) quite doable! Don't get too precious about it  - to be perfectly honest you are not really 'virtuoso' until you can play quite a large number of 'transcendental' level etudes so judt plod anlong and start learning a coupl. Inccidentally I do believe it's better to learn two together than one for 2 reasons 1. It is a case of the more you learn the easier they get 2. If you choose two contrasting types of technique ie 'leaps' and 'doubled thirds' for example then in a relatively short space of time you can handle two kinds of virtuoso technique. - Better this way than choosing one etude with it all in to begin with as if one is going better than the other you can leave it and come back to it rather than just giving up completely (that feels like failure - trust me I ve been there!)

Offline steinwayguy

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #22 on: January 20, 2005, 04:57:14 AM
It all depends on your technique. There is a constant debate around my part on whether opus 25/6 is more difficult than 10/2. Finger oriented techniques will say 25/6, arm oriented techniques will say 10/2. I say 10/2.

(Knowing them all), my rating would be-

Opus 10: 9, 6, 3, 11, 12, 5, 10, 8, 4, 1, 7, 2
Opus 25: 3, 1, 7, 12, 2, 5, 9, 8, 10, 4, 11, 6

Contrary to popular belief, IMO, 25/2 is quite quite difficult to play extremely well.

My advice to you if you're looking to play a virtuosic etude and one that is not too difficult would be to go for either the Revolutionary Etude, Black Key Etude or Opus 25/12, which looks extraordinarily difficult but isn't.

Offline Lauren98

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #23 on: March 22, 2005, 08:03:18 PM
Hello!
While we are on the subject of etudes, I was wondering what is the primary technical difficulty which Chopin 10/8 emphasizes?
Thank you!
Lauren  :)
"Truly there would be a reason to go mad were it not for music."--Tchaikovsky

Offline presto agitato

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #24 on: March 22, 2005, 08:26:25 PM
Hello!
While we are on the subject of etudes, I was wondering what is the primary technical difficulty which Chopin 10/8 emphasizes?
Thank you!
Lauren  :)

Op 10-8 = "Revolutionary" for the right hand.
The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

--Alfred Brendel--

Offline Lauren98

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #25 on: March 22, 2005, 08:33:45 PM
Thank you, Presto Agitato! :)
Lauren
"Truly there would be a reason to go mad were it not for music."--Tchaikovsky

Offline steinwayguy

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #26 on: March 23, 2005, 05:15:38 AM
Hello!
While we are on the subject of etudes, I was wondering what is the primary technical difficulty which Chopin 10/8 emphasizes?
Thank you!
Lauren  :)


"passing the thumb" so to speak. I found it to be one of the hardest in Opus 10.

Offline robert

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #27 on: March 23, 2005, 02:49:42 PM
I would really like to try a vituoistic etude one day, but I usually unintentionally pick the difficult ones.

Could you supply a list of the Liszt etudes and Chopin etudes in order of difficulty (In one big list).

PS. A list of the Ligeti etudes in order of difficulty would also be apprieciated.
You can get more information about Chopin's etudes by reading Malcolm Kandzia's study guide for the Chopin etudes (note that he initially wrote them to me personally and consists some rather personal references and hidden jokes).
Op.10: https://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=111
Op.25: https://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=112

Download free classical piano recordings and free sheet music at Piano Society (https://pianosociety.com)

Offline march05

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #28 on: March 23, 2005, 03:23:37 PM
HI,

Sorry, i say it again, but it ISN'T POSSIBLE to say wich one are most difficult, because everyone has other quality's!

hehe, that's true indeed... but it's such fun to talk about  ;D

[edit]


Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #29 on: March 23, 2005, 03:25:06 PM
well, I played a shosty prelude that had tremolos for nearly 6 min. straight. I guess i should be just fine on these etudes ;D

Offline Lauren98

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #30 on: March 25, 2005, 02:00:54 AM
Thank you, Robert and SteinwayGuy!
Lauren
"Truly there would be a reason to go mad were it not for music."--Tchaikovsky

Offline rob47

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Re: Difficulty of Etudes
Reply #31 on: March 28, 2005, 04:38:57 AM
with a name like bravura octaves why not play a scriabin virtuosic etude instead? op. 8 no 12. for liszt do TE no. 8 wild jagd, (bravura octaves in that one alright), chopin do op. 25 no.....number....uhm...well you know, the one with bravura octaves.

rob
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-Alexis Weissenberg
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