Chopin Ballade 1

[tmjorden]

I am thinking about asking my teacher if I can start a Chopin ballade and seconding which one. It's easily between 1 and 4 but 4 seems to hard. Can anyone tell me if you think Ballade 1 will be? The pieces I can play well (competition) are Hungarian Rhapsody 6, Prokofiev Suggestion Diabolique, Haydn Sonata 50, Debussy La Soirre dans Grenade. Can you always point out some awkward spots, thirds, awkward fingering, or technically difficult spots?

[chopinlover01]

If you can't assess the difficulties in the ballade, I very much doubt your capability to play ANY of the pieces in your signature.
It's a mature Chopin work (even the G minor). You'll find plenty of technical challenges and musical ones as well.

[tmjorden]

You don't understand how much I have improved since I started the pieces for the competitions. They are pretty easy for me. La Campanella, Appassionata and Rach 2 were easy reads but they will be difficult to perfect. Please don't assume someones skill level. I will plan to start this ballade because yes, i do understand the technical difficulties. I guess I shouldn't of asked

[chopinlover01]

You can play all of those pieces but can't assess the relative difficulty of a Chopin ballade?
Right. Post you playing ANY of those pieces and I'll believe you, but until then I'm skeptical.

[tmjorden]

Okay.  So I'm a 14 year old who  can't play La Campanella at a concert level (because I started it two months ago) and you can't believe I can play a Haydn sonata or Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody? I asked about the Ballade because piano street has been a wonderful resource for me! Please  don't need to be negative about my playing (especially when you don't even know what I sound like). I've held back from posting because the only videos I have are from recitals with terrible recording. So can anyone actually give me a serious response about measures I should look up for, difficulty musically? Please don't say I'm not good enough because I asked this. Just haven't gotten around to analyzing it. I have a great teacher so if no one responds it's not the end of the world.

[quantum]

Ballade 1 is probably an easier-to-digest first Ballade, but that does not by any means indicate it is easy.  Sight read through the pieces and come back with more specific questions.  If you want to look at some of the difficult spots, examine the coda. 

[tmjorden]

Okay, I examined the Ballade and figured out this. The first theme is always easy (3 times), the second theme happens 3-4 times and the second time is the one I'm worried about. Theme 3 (waltz like part) is definately the the hardest technically besides the coda, and the coda I'm not too worried about because I'm good at started at a slow tempo and getting fast. Tell me if I'm wrong about any of these spots please. I don't think this piece will be too difficult for me.

[dogperson]

Okay, I examined the Ballade and figured out this. The first theme is always easy (3 times), the second theme happens 3-4 times and the second time is the one I'm worried about. Theme 3 (waltz like part) is definately the the hardest technically besides the coda, and the coda I'm not too worried about because I'm good at started at a slow tempo and getting fast. Tell me if I'm wrong about any of these spots please. I don't think this piece will be too difficult for me.

You might find this useful in learning theme 3 (Waltz)
https://www.practisingthepiano.com/chopins-first-ballade-a-practice-suggestion/

[louispodesta]

Once again, someone has posted an interrogatory, which is:  self serving, at best.

Most who have posted in response have travelled many piano miles in learning this piece.  Accordingly, they have learned the hard way what to do, and also more importantly, what not to do.

The introductory learning of any composer's body of work is not simple or complicated.  It, as we all know, is a lifelong process.

Therefore, I take extreme umbrage at the mere suggestion that the OP's question can be answered (in 25 words or less) or more by those who well intentioned do not understand the simplistic falsehood of the original interrogatory.

Hey, OP:  would you dare walk into the studio of a Department Chair of any major Conservatory in the World and dare to ask the same question?

I think not!

[keypeg]

Therefore, I take extreme umbrage at the mere suggestion that the OP's question can be answered (in 25 words or less) or more by those who well intentioned do not understand the simplistic falsehood of the original interrogatory.

Almost every single person who responded has warned the OP away from this quest.  In addition to seeing that people have responded, it is important to see what they have responded.

[dogperson]

Once again, someone has posted an interrogatory, which is:  self serving, at best.

Most who have posted in response have travelled many piano miles in learning this piece.  Accordingly, they have learned the hard way what to do, and also more importantly, what not to do.

The introductory learning of any composer's body of work is not simple or complicated.  It, as we all know, is a lifelong process.

Therefore, I take extreme umbrage at the mere suggestion that the OP's question can be answered (in 25 words or less) or more by those who well intentioned do not understand the simplistic falsehood of the original interrogatory.

Hey, OP:  would you dare walk into the studio of a Department Chair of any major Conservatory in the World and dare to ask the same question?

I think not!

Almost every single person who responded has warned the OP away from this quest.  In addition to seeing that people have responded, it is important to see what they have responded.

Oh, for Pete's sake-- if you read the original post, this 14 year old is just doing some exploring and IS PLANNING TO DISCUSS WITH HIS TEACHER.   Really this  'extreme umbrage' is 'unwarranted umbrage'.  

[tmjorden]

a

[dogperson]

First of all, most people haven't traveled miles to learn this piece (that responded to me). Most of your responses actually are telling me not to do it. Or you're just telling me how I can't play anything I'm working on.  I know this is a hard piece and I wanted to bring my teacher with an educated reason to why I want to play it.  So don't say do you dare ask the department chair the same question. I'm pretty sure no one here is a department chair of a extremely well known conservatory. I came here looking for help and not one single person helped me. I asked a small question that takes <50 words to answer and you all wrote me paragraphs about how stupid this is. I will not be using this site again.

I can understand how you feel, but recognize that Louis is the resident curmedgeon who likes to take every opportunity to post negative posts.  And yes, no one here is a department chair!  
But you were offered help, which I guess now is diminished from your perspective.

Edited to add:   You were looking for feedback on whether to start with Ballade 1 or 4.  You received that.  I would recommend that, since you have analyzed the Ballad 1, and identified what for you wil be the most technically difficult sections, you present it to your teacher in that way--- and as a way of developing the technique to play those sections well.

[dogperson]

Edited to add:   You were looking for feedback on whether to start with Ballade 1 or 4.  You received that.  I would recommend that, since you have analyzed the Ballad 1, and identified what for you wil be the most technically difficult sections, you present it to your teacher in that way--- and as a way of developing the technique to play those sections well.  Review the information I posted about learning the 'waltz' section, and take that information with you to your teacher-- so that he/she recognizes you are not diminishing the challenges, have done some thinking, and are prepared to do the work to succeed.

[tmjorden]

Sorry dogperson! I realize earlier you did help me! And thank you for your advice I just was caught in every else telling me their "opinions." I will bring this to my teacher and hopefully be playing this piece.

[dogperson]

Sorry dogperson! I realize earlier you did help me! And thank you for your advice I just was caught in every else telling me their "opinions." I will bring this to my teacher and hopefully be playing this piece.

 

Don't run away-- and good luck.  I do remember being 14, and wanting to play everything I thought was beautiful.  (In fact, I still am the same way!)   Some of these forays with my teacher were very successful, and some not.... but it didn't matter.  I learned a little more about myself, and a lot more about music with every new piece of repertoire.   I still do the same thing with my current teacher--  I drool, bring in the score, and we work on it together.   


I sincerely hope that will  be a success for you... looking forward to hearing a recording!

[tmjorden]

Well you convinced me to do this!

[debussychopin]

There's a difference between learning all the notes&memorizing the finger/ muscle movements ..and actually learning the piece and how to express it technically artistically (focusing on tone, that is, articulation , dynamics, proper voicing and phrasing etc)  

Give enough time, you can teach any person off the street to memorize all finger movements to the ballade. This isn't musicianship or art though.  

[dogperson]

There's a difference between learning all the notes and memorizing the finger/ muscle movements ..and actually learning the piece and how to express it technically artistically (focusing on tone, that is, articulation , dynamics, proper voicing and phrasing etc) 

Give enough time, you can teach any person off the street to memorize all finger movements to the ballade. This isn't musicianship or art though. 

No one ever said that just learning the notes/muscle movements was enough.  For Pete's sake, he is not  showing up here 'self-taught' and trying to learn an etude in Week 1.  He has a teacher and therefore will present this to him/her, and they will make a joint decision whether to continue.  Maybe it might be something started, put aside to finish later....   or something that is continually developed alongide other repertoire.  Who knows?   Surely his teacher will. 

[debussychopin]

No one ever said that just learning the notes/muscle movements was enough.  For Pete's sake, he is not  showing up here 'self-taught' and trying to learn an etude in Week 1.  He has a teacher and therefore will present this to him/her, and they will make a joint decision whether to continue.  Maybe it might be something started, put aside to finish later....   or something that is continually developed alongide other repertoire.  Who knows?   Surely his teacher will. 

You are absolutely sensible in your thinking dogperson.
I will have to agree with you.

[keypeg]

I just discovered the "find responses to your posts".

(mine --- responding to Louis)
Almost every single person who responded has warned the OP away from this quest.  In addition to seeing that people have responded, it is important to see what they have responded.
Oh, for Pete's sake-- if you read the original post, this 14 year old is just doing some exploring and IS PLANNING TO DISCUSS WITH HIS TEACHER.   Really this  'extreme umbrage' is 'unwarranted umbrage'.  

I was not criticizing the OP.  I was responding to Louis criticizing everyone's response as being the same, when it had not been.

[mishamalchik]

So arguments aside, OP, I too am a student and have explored both pieces and decided to discuss the first Ballade with my teacher after Christmas break. It's far and away the more approachable of the two in my mind.

The fourth is absolutely gorgeous but even the opening is deceptively difficult. What seems like a straight forward section is actually a monster to phrase and speak eloquently with and I'd say that while it's enormously difficult technically, the real struggle that sits head and shoulders above the technical issues is the issue of phrasing and musicality. The G minor Ballade is much more straight speaking, having said that, have you considered no 3 in A flat? I'd say it's even more approachable than no 1 and has the added bonus of not being as over played as no 1. Particularly for competitions or auditions, the first Ballade is frequently played making it more difficult to make your mark on. Check out Zimerman's recording of no 3, it's a real gem!

On a side note, take everything you hear on this forum with a grain of salt. People range in skill and competence in both piano performance and civilities.

[frege]

As a first ballade the fourth would be perhaps ill-advised. It is generally considered the most difficult of the four, and is often considered one of the most mature Chopin works and one of the ones that is most difficult to interpret.

No 1 would be a better first choice. It tells a clear story and is more immediately understandable for interpretation. The coda is pretty difficult.

3 is generally considered the easiest. I find that 2 is probably next easiest but that's open to debate.

[samdm93]

Dear me, there are some extremely conceited people on this forum.  The original poster asked a general question and gets shot at with snide remarks about his/hear pianistic abilities and repertoire. They were simply asking in relativity to their current repertoire, is the Ballade too difficult? Jeez. Instead of tearing each other down, why don't we support each other.

Anyway, time to answer your actual question. I would purchase a copy of the Ballade in G minor (Alfred Publishing have a lovely edition at a good price), or download the sheet music as it's in the public domain; and have a play through. However, don't start at the beginning as this is the "easiest" part - jump straight to the Presto part as this is the most difficult (along with the coda) in my opinion and if you can play this you should be able to take on the entire piece.

[zolaxi]

Should you have a go at learning the Ballade #1? Of course you should. Why should you be deprived of experiencing one of the greatest solo piano works in the repertoire.

Is it difficult? My word it is.

Will you be able to master it (technically and musically) any time soon? I would confidently say no, but who cares. Wait till you're 24, or 34 or 44 or 54 etc!! Developing as a musician is a life long process, and not just a matter of ticking the G min Ballade box and moving on to #2.

You must read "Play It Again" by Alan Rusbridger. Check it out. A wonderful read for anyone contemplating learning the G min Ballade

[dogperson]

Should you have a go at learning the Ballade #1? Of course you should. Why should you be deprived of experiencing one of the greatest solo piano works in the repertoire.

Is it difficult? My word it is.

Will you be able to master it (technically and musically) any time soon? I would confidently say no, but who cares. Wait till you're 24, or 34 or 44 or 54 etc!! Developing as a musician is a life long process, and not just a matter of ticking the G min Ballade box and moving on to #2.

You must read "Play It Again" by Alan Rusbridger. Check it out. A wonderful read for anyone contemplating learning the G min Ballade

I just finished 'Play It Again'... and highly recommend this book as well!!!!  Wonderful insights into learning this Ballade.   Tanner, as part of this book, Alan interviewed many distinguished pianists about learning the ballade.  Interesting that many started on the Ballade in their teen years, to be worked on for many decades.  Read the book!!!!   but do go for it!

[danielo]

I would second all posters' comments on Play it Again.....I am midway through it and it is an inspirational example of what is possible even for a moderately talented piano player to achieve. Alan Ruisberger only scored 101 at his Grade 6 level exam (a bare pass) and yet went on to (eventually) tackle this monster of piano literature. OK so it took him a long time, but so, so worth the effort.
Two things really stood out for me in relation to learning this piece:

1. Get a teacher. A  good one. Alan actually had the luxury of using several piano teachers, plus insights from some of the greatest living pianists, thanks to his Guardian connections.

2. Practise slowly and carefully, concentrating on embedding the correct notes and no mistakes, over and over, especially for the fast and difficult sections. Once the notes are embedded, the real process of making the music of the piece can begin, and for that, see point 1.

Good luck!

[mrcreosote]

OP, you mention "(competition.")

Have you done any?  Which one(s) and how did you fare?