Relaxed hands, and proper finger/hand muscle technique

[vishal733]

I've been learning the piano for 2 years (mostly on my own, and under a teacher for 6 months).

I'm quite particular about developing a correct hand technique; relaxed hands, proper finger technique so as to not develop any stress, and pain.
A proper technique of course also helps in playing faster, and playing with more dynamics.
I understand that developing ease while playing can take some years to develop.

For this, I'd appreciate any inputs (no matter how trivial and/or elaborate) on developing a proper hand technique. Even external links are welcome. [including concepts like cupped hand position, whole hand movement, etc.. etc..]

I believe more in self-learning, rather than learning from a teacher. This is what works better for me. With some external inputs, I can try to figure out what works for me..

Here is a sample of how I play right now:

[outin]

Is your teacher not assessing that? Or are you not taking lessons at the moment?

I have come to the conclusion that assessing technique is difficult  on words only so I wouldn't even try. Some people here are able to do it to some extend though.

Also there are countless of different ideas on technique available on the net, but to know which approach will be helpful is difficult to assess. I personally did find some information useful to better understand how to achieve what my teacher was talking about. But I doubt it would have been that helpful without my teacher's input.

I do think you could work on learning to play in a less laborious manner and firmer hand structure and more finger stability but it is sometimes counterintuitive what to do to achieve that. Would be best for a teacher to work on it with you.

There are so many things to consider starting on posture that it takes time however one approaches it, unless it just happens to come right naturally. It took me about 3 years to be able to learn to somehow "relax" with the notes physically, the mental relaxation is still very much a work in process.

[thirtytwo2020]

First of all - well done after 2 years. very nice to hear your playing.
I agree with outin that assessing technique in a meaningful way is very difficult using words only. Nevertheless I'll have a small try.

It would be interesting to know how you feel playing that. Do you experience any stress or pain?
It seems that your right hand fingers get a bit tired during the arpeggio sections. These are not as even as they could be and you are also slowing down there.

I think this is because the fingers are taking too much of the work load. You are not involving the arm enough. I think this is a general problem for you, but it becomes more noticable whan you have to play faster notes. Now, how should you work on this? One way to start: slowly play five consecutive scale notes using one finger only, for example: C-D-E-F-G, fingering 3-3-3-3-3. Let the third finger fall down on each key and follow through with the arm. Keep the wrist loose and don't be afraid of making large movements with the arm.

Note that this is just a suggestion and one of many steps you'll have to take on the way to a more relaxed technique. Of course you should discuss this with your teacher. Good luck!

[vishal733]

Thanks outin for your genuine comments.

Is your teacher not assessing that? Or are you not taking lessons at the moment?

Yes. That's true. I'm not taking lessons at the moment, and won't it'll be like that for at least 6 months. So I posted here

[vishal733]

Thanks thirtytwo2020 for listening to the video I shared. Your feedback is quite useful.

It would be interesting to know how you feel playing that. Do you experience any stress or pain?
It seems that your right hand fingers get a bit tired during the arpeggio sections. These are not as even as they could be and you are also slowing down there.

Yes, I do feel some pain, and stress in my hands. Though that has reduced considerably over the two years. 
And that's true, it's not even in the arpeggio section. I did realise that (even at the time of posting the video)
More work for me to do of course!

Let's see if I can find some more inputs from this community..

[adodd81802]

One thing I personally found, assuming no physical difficulties here, that the idea specifically of a relaxed technique, comes mostly when you're fully comfortable with the piano.

For example if we were walking across a wide bridge, we don't think about our feet, our legs because they're relaxed, we understand the purpose of walking, we are stable, we know everything that's going on underneath our feet..

However if somebody puts you on a tight rope between 2 buildings, all of a sudden your legs are tense your feet are not comfortable you're worried about mis-stepping and wrong moves...

I think piano has some similarities to that mindset that are arms and hands can represent the same idea, if we're not confident about the notes, about where we can or should put our fingers, all of a sudden everything gets tense why we try to only make sure we hit the right note...

The answer to this is hard to be certain because the more you think about this idea of technique the more you will likely tense up and try and adjust to what you THINK relaxed is, compared to what it actually is.

I think really to be come comfortable with the piano comes with time and practice, practicing things well withing your comfort zone, and even to an extent some difficult things, but not being too strict with yourself initially. practicing fundamental skills whether you do that in scales and arpeggios, or pieces that have these techniques in, as you get better at doing those, your ability to comfortably move around the keys becomes just an extension of your fingers. (this to me is how it feels)

[bronnestam]

https://vimeo.com/99963255

I through in this video, as I always do ...    But since you are new here, I think it is a good idea. I believe you will find it, and those who come after, most enlightening.



Otherwise, lovely piece of music you have there, thanks for sharing! You look like I feel when I try to make a recording, you want to make the piece sound really nice so you focus entirely on that. But you can use the same piece for just practice as well. Play a bit, stop and check your breathing, relax, adjust your posture, listen to the chords. No hurry! Never mind if it is not "music" you make, it should be an exercise for you and your body. My spontaneous reflection from the video is that you keep your elbows too fixed and too close to your body.

[louispodesta]

I've been learning the piano for 2 years (mostly on my own, and under a teacher for 6 months).

I'm quite particular about developing a correct hand technique; relaxed hands, proper finger technique so as to not develop any stress, and pain.
A proper technique of course also helps in playing faster, and playing with more dynamics.
I understand that developing ease while playing can take some years to develop.

For this, I'd appreciate any inputs (no matter how trivial and/or elaborate) on developing a proper hand technique. Even external links are welcome. [including concepts like cupped hand position, whole hand movement, etc.. etc..]

I believe more in self-learning, rather than learning from a teacher. This is what works better for me. With some external inputs, I can try to figure out what works for me..

Here is a sample of how I play right now:

You have enormous natural ability, in terms of both hand morphology and also musicality.  However, you (like millions of beginning students before you) have the belief that you can have it both ways.

That is, you cannot maintain your true soul as a musician by taking lessons from a teacher, and yet you aspire to proper technique.

Sorry, to disappoint you, but the folks at Pianostreet are not even remotely inclined to render their levels of expertise for free because you politely ask.

Who the hell are you to have the temerity/hubris to ask us for a free ride, when knowing full well that ours was anything but?

Oh, and for the record, if you continue with your (claw technique), and then try playing anything at a fast tempo, you won't have to worry about future progress at the piano.

Because, your subsequent injuries will have made it a true challenge to pick up a common fork and feed yourself.  Your hands will have become essentially paralyzed.

For those who consider this overly harsh, please remember the road most of us have traveled for years and years.  The point being, what gives this ADULT MALE the right to ask us for free un-encumbered advice?

Based on the predicate of his particular post, he obviously considers the purposive nature of Pianostreet is to give any and all pedagogical advice (regardless of accuracy) for free.

In case any of you did not notice, the very expensive instrument this man is playing on costs way more than a common piano lesson.  This, in addition with the expense associated with this particular video, makes this post more than just suspect.

[thirtytwo2020]

For God's sake Podesta, this is an internet forum. You give and take advice and feedback for free.

Maybe you are jealous of his expensive instrument? In that case, I really hope you will make enough money on your expertise to be able to buy a really nice piano for yourself one day.

[minhogang]

From your playing, your hands are very tense but fret not, that will be loosened over time. I think what you need is a bit of Hanon, especially exercises 1-32. When I did the first 20 exercises my forearms were very strained but you will develop dexterity and independence of the fingers if you do Hanon for 2-3 months, from my experience. Now I can finish Hanon exercises in 50 minutes with little strain, except for the broken octaves and tremolo exercise. Great technique book for beginners-intermediates.

[hardy_practice]

From your playing, your hands are very tense but fret not, that will be loosened over time.

Yeh, like the more you pull on a knot the looser it becomes!?  Cripes, that the worst advice I've seen on the net!  I'd stop now whilst, as Lois says, you can still eat your supper.

[j_tour]

From your playing, your hands are very tense but fret not, that will be loosened over time. I think what you need is a bit of Hanon, especially exercises 1-32.

Unfortunately I don't have audio on this box, but I can see the images.  Looks painful.   

I don't know if I'd say "needs Hanon," but scales are good for this kind of thing -- sort of self-regulating, and I have a good amount of faith that the body will adapt to a more natural, adaptive way of executing if you just do some scales, and do them good.

No, you don't need a teacher.  Just do some scales and it will sort itself out.  Experiment with fingerings, do them in thirds and sixths, just pick one key to start with, like Bb major or whatever, and listen and feel.  No big deal -- nothing that can't be figured out.

[dogperson]

I am just an adult returning student, but what my  teacher has instructed is that any scales or Hanon need to be played with attention to detail, otherwise they are of no benefit.... you would carryover your habits and tension from  the way you play unless you consciously work on change.  In this case, consciously shifting your weight from one finger to another, and incorporating forearm rotation as you move up and down the scale.

This instruction seems to make sense to me-- a conscious change of technique is needed.  What is confusing to me is that  two members post that it will correct itself if you 'just do exercises or scales'?

To the OP, you are carrying an enormous amount of tension, and seem to be playing with no arm rotation and poor finger position... I would recommend two things to get the advice you need:
- NEVER practice through pain.  Pain is your body's signal that you are doing something wrong.
- Please get a teacher to help you work through correct posture, and movements.  The advice you get from a teacher is IN PERSON and you can't fix this alone.

[hardy_practice]

  two members post that it will correct itself if you 'just do exercises or scales'?

That bugs me too.  What is this forum becoming?

[j_tour]

That bugs me too.  What is this forum becoming?

Completely sensible, IMHO.

On the one hand, there are all kinds of "key ideas of piano technique" that can be repeated, like little sound bites, but on the other hand, in practice, the human body is pretty good at figuring stuff out on its own.

Take your average couch potato, and put them in the mountains and have them walk to ... I don't know, the foothills of some of the Alps or something.

Eventually the body will just figure out an efficient way of getting there.  I know there are exceptions, as in everything, but generally basic technique has a way of finding its own level. 

Provided that one doesn't overcomplicate things with little methods or shortcuts.

And, nobody needs to be Usain Bolt at the keyboard -- just basic walking is a great start.

So, just do some scales and the fingers will follow.  And if you get bored, the brain is another great instrument -- it will find some ways to entertain itself.

[hardy_practice]

Go it alone without a master?  What planet you on?

[j_tour]

Go it alone without a master?  What planet you on?

Well, I think you're partly joking, but that's a good point.  Yeah, it's easy enough to forget that most piano pickers had the benefit of having been taught.

I do think that the role of a teacher and group-membership in general has been distorted in our age, in any number of cultures, but, so as I don't start spiraling into some vortex of thought, I'll just leave it at the good old true aphorism that everyone teaches himself or herself.

Sure, everyone can take advantage of some pointers along the way, but I wouldn't say not hiring a professional counselor/teacher is going to lead to some devastating, crippling injury.  Keyboards are pretty user-friendly, I'd say, by design. 

[hardy_practice]

Even some of the greatest performers have got into problems - Fleisher for instance.  You think you know better?  No, only once you have for sure got to the other shore discard the boat.

[j_tour]

Even some of the greatest performers have got into problems - Fleisher for instance.  You think you know better?  No, only once you have for sure got to the other shore discard the boat.

No, nobody knows any better.  I think it's pretty for sure that people only harm themselves if they try some crazy obsessive "techniques" like trying for finger independence, like Schumann or Hanon.

Anyway, it's only basic piano -- it's not like it's playing organ or something ridiculous, where you can end up with leg cramps.

[keypeg]

Just a bit on this:

I believe more in self-learning, rather than learning from a teacher. This is what works better for me. With some external inputs, I can try to figure out what works for me..

I was forced into self-learning for a great deal of my life.  In some ways I achieved a lot.  In others, there is a lot to undo, and the work is greater than if I had started in the right way.  You cannot really have a good view of self-learning versus learning from a teacher until you have had a good teacher (warning, they're rare) and have been able to work in a proper way with such a teacher.

I'm a learner myself and as such don't want to venture far in what I might see in the video.  It looks stiff: it looks like you are holding the non-playing fingers up in the air away from the keys which creates tension, and it doesn't look like the body (the whole arm) works together to produce the sounds.  Now how to get at these things is a whole other question, and how to undo any habits you have now after two years of self-teaching might also be a challenge.  After writing this I'll go back to undoing / redoing more of my own stuff - back to practising.

[louispodesta]

For God's sake Podesta, this is an internet forum. You give and take advice and feedback for free.

Maybe you are jealous of his expensive instrument? In that case, I really hope you will make enough money on your expertise to be able to buy a really nice piano for yourself one day.

1)  I am the only one who posts here who uses his own name, and therefore subjects himself often to vitriolic criticism.  That is why you get to call me "Podesta."  Just try that level of familiarity with Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman and see how far it gets you?

2)  If you had bothered to view my video, you would have noticed that I am playing a Baby Grand.  For the record, this is a 1950 Baldwin Baby Grand that is tuned and maintained by a Steinway Factory trained technician.

3)  Although I eventually inherited this fine instrument (in my late 50's), I did not inherit the thousands of dollars it has cost me to keep it in shape.  Accordingly, even with it being out of tune at the time the video was made, it beats the daylights out of any Baby Grand in my home city of San Antonio.

4)  So, if you didn't get it the first time, here it is again:

5)  Once again, the OP cannot have it both ways when the rest of us have spent tens of thousands of hours with various teachers (some good and some bad) to get us to where we are today.

6)  That is why this great instrument (which was composed and studied for hundreds of years) deserves every ounce of respect it is due.  Accordingly, this website has a separate Forum for Piano Technicians.

7)  Further, per the OP, you will notice that I did not reference technique well-known coaches such as Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, or my coach Thomas Mark for the OP to consider. 

That was for a reason!  And, guessing from the responses that have followed, I seemed to have touched a nerve.

[minhogang]

I am just an adult returning student, but what my  teacher has instructed is that any scales or Hanon need to be played with attention to detail, otherwise they are of no benefit.... you would carryover your habits and tension from  the way you play unless you consciously work on change.  In this case, consciously shifting your weight from one finger to another, and incorporating forearm rotation as you move up and down the scale.

This instruction seems to make sense to me-- a conscious change of technique is needed.  What is confusing to me is that  two members post that it will correct itself if you 'just do exercises or scales'?

To the OP, you are carrying an enormous amount of tension, and seem to be playing with no arm rotation and poor finger position... I would recommend two things to get the advice you need:
- NEVER practice through pain.  Pain is your body's signal that you are doing something wrong.
- Please get a teacher to help you work through correct posture, and movements.  The advice you get from a teacher is IN PERSON and you can't fix this alone.

The first and last paragraphs are good advice. Exercises and scales alone won't loosen tense muscles but they sure do accelerate it. It really just comes down to practice.

[vaniii]

I have been writing a reply then deleting it; i forced myself to write and post.

You have developed a technique of tension.  When you play, you have adopted high shoulders and very stiff hands, arms.  You may not realise this; you might have even become used to this sensation.  The problem here is that you cannot solve this problem overnight, or while you are studying this piece of music.

Unfortunately, to move forward you need to backtrack, a little, working on you ability to play in a manner that is efficient.  This will involved back to simply concepts like scales in a relaxed calm manner.

The idea here is working on the element you need to improve, by using an already learned simple technique.  If you work on trying to relax while playing this piece of music, unfortunatly, you will ruin your hard work on the piece, and likely fail.  It would be like trying to pump a football up, and kick it at the same time ... while taking note in your black book of your findings and directing the rest of your team.

I hope this helps you at least a little.

[j_tour]

Even some of the greatest performers have got into problems - Fleisher for instance.  You think you know better?  No, only once you have for sure got to the other shore discard the boat.

That is a very fair point -- it is really tempting to try to "speak truth to power," and easy to forget that probably most people here have already put in at least some significant amount of time in following the traditional route.

And, no, I don't know anything for sure -- I'm not a technical monster on piano, just more of a somewhat competent hack, albeit one who's always trying to learn more and is continually going back to the basics, trying to fill in some technical areas I decided I didn't need to prioritize as a much younger student.

What someone else pointed out is something I thought was obvious, but in hindsight really should have been stressed:  there's scales, HT, and that's great, but for sure there are probably a few right ways and many more wrong ways to do them.  I just happen to think that if you really pay attention to what you're doing, both by listening and observing the motions of the hands, most people probably will eventually come up with a pretty natural, relaxed, efficient way to execute them.

And, of course, I was wrong to suggest that this is the easiest route -- for all I know, it might take a significantly longer time to end up with a natural, efficient technique than having somebody give some well-placed comments.  Just that it can be done, is all my experience suggests.

But, then again, I had some excellent teachers in legit music and in jazz, so, sure, I don't know for positive.  Just trying to give an alternative to the typical doom-and-gloom "if you don't hire a teacher, you will end up with broken arms and be a gimp for the rest of your life."

My arms, wrists and hands get sore pretty often, but I see that as a learning experience that I'm not doing it right, so some good old common sense probably goes quite a long way for every body.

I did finally read Gieseking's short book on technique a week or so, and while I can't definitively say he has the magic formula, but his book is a nice example of how to apply some common-sense principles to performing -- I believe one of his examples he talked about at some length was the C major Sinfonia.  That might be a good way to sneak in some scalar work in a piece of music -- pretty much all scales, and while I wouldn't call it an easy piece, compared to some other "student" pieces, it could be a nice example piece to look at and try to tie things together for oneself.

[hardy_practice]

 I just happen to think that if you really pay attention to what you're doing, both by listening and observing the motions of the hands, most people probably will eventually come up with a pretty natural, relaxed, efficient way to execute them.

Sure, if they knew what to listen and look for - and there's the rub.  Add what it should feel like and you've got what I've been teaching for the last 25 years.  Absolute beginners who have never touched a piano get the basics pretty quickly - for the rest you can easily add a few years.

Not to be all negative Mr Tour, I will admit my job has been 95% prevention.  If you allow the body to do something it usually gets it right but that allowing stops at about age 7.  Even then the 7 year old absolutely requires that 5%.

Anyway, it's only basic piano --

What a mouthful!

[vaniii]

... I will admit my job has been 95% prevention.

I hear ya !

[ted]

I don't usually post about physical technique but in this case I agree with most of the others in that eliminating the obvious rigidity in your playing would probably expand your musical fluency a great deal. You enjoy your music now, but even just a few lessons from a good teacher would almost certainly increase flexibility and enhance that enjoyment. The small outlay in money and time would repay you more than you imagine, given your progress so far.

[louispodesta]

So, I will tell you what.  Why don't you just state online (as a matter of fact) that Dorothy Taubman was a fake and a fraud, along with Edna Golandsky, and Thomas Mark.

The point being, that, guess what?  You cannot have it both ways.  You cannot reference 19th century Czerny, Hannon, and scales and arpeggios as legitimate technique builders, and at the same time totally ignore the former.

Dorothy Taubman stated, personally and on video (metaphorically) that the standard 19th century methodology of piano pedagogy technique was crap!  Her protégé, Edna Golandsky, has in so many words said the very same thing.

Then, a Philosopher comes along (Thomas Mark), who couples the epistemology of the well-known Alexander Technique with that of Taubman and Golandsky.

A question for those who have posted?  Do you have the guts to walk up to or email the Chair of the Keyboard Division at Juilliard (who is a former student of Dorothy Taubman) and look her straight in the face and tell her what you have told me?

Further, can you do the same with Dr. Thomas Mark, whose book ("What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body") is in every music department college keyboard chair's library?

The fact of the matter is that I spent five decades playing useless exercises, scales and arpeggios.  Then, with the help of Thomas Mark, and Daniel Peak (Rachmaninoff technique), I now have the ability to get around on the piano (at the age of 65!) at a level I never thought imaginable.

Plus, as I have stated before (obviously not a problem with the OP) I have developed a daily physical strengthening routine to develop finger tendon and ligament strength away from the piano.  And, this cannot be done on a static keyboard with a standard strike and release keyboard.

[dogperson]

.

[dogperson]

So, I will tell you what.  Why don't you just state online (as a matter of fact) that Dorothy Taubman was a fake and a fraud, along with Edna Golandsky, and Thomas Mark.

The point being, that, guess what?  You cannot have it both ways.  You cannot reference 19th century Czerny, Hannon, and scales and arpeggios as legitimate technique builders, and at the same time totally ignore the former. ....

I don't understand your post, Louis.  Dorothy Taubman and Edna Golandsky in fact taught scales, using the Taubman technique.  A practice exercise which I referenced in my post.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is very difficult to help someone with technique using just words, most effective teaching in this regard must be done in person imho. There has been very little specific advice and a lot of general advice without considering the context which is a bit disappointing given we have a lot of knowledgeable people here!

I will give you some little advice though, as soon as your video started I noticed your LH doesn't like to control positions at a time, for instance you play the octave with a nice expanded hand, then contract (5th finger moves) to play the middle chords within that octave , why can't you simply keep your hand expanded, this will save you having to open/close/open/close your hand constantly. Also I feel you are overusing your 4th finger in the LH where you could use a 3 you may have to consider your fingering options, I would suggest alternating between the middle fingers 3 and 4 i.e. bar 1 use 4, bar 2 use 3, bar 3 use 4 bar 4 use 3 etc etc.


This highlights a point of positional playing in piano, how to control a single position instead of constantly changing positions unnecessarily which can set us up for unnecessary exertion. Learn to see notes as a part of a group, as a part of a single position rather than they all being isolated and individual, this may help your hand control points without constantly altering shape and thus improve your technical efficiency.

The no 1 rule for good technique is that it should feel comfortable, if you feel tired or strained there is a problem. Sometimes bad movements can be trained to feel comfortable and in that case you do need a teacher to help you appreciate more economical movements and especially if your trail and errors don't improve it naturally or show you more options to explore. Even the most technically demanding pieces can be made soft and gentle in the hands, those who don't agree simply have inferior technique.

[vaniii]

It is very difficult to help someone with technique using just words, most effective teaching in this regard must be done in person imho.

...

Learn to see notes as a part of a group.

...

The no 1 rule for good technique is that it should feel comfortable

...

I agree, entirely with this post, specifically these points.

The fact of the matter is that I spent five decades playing useless exercises, scales and arpeggios.

This point concerns me.  Surely, you can see the problem here.  Scales and exercises are concepts that need to be applied to your practice.  You must understand that an object or concept is only ever as good as how it is used or applied.  If a person flippantly ploughs through scales and studies, without thought, of course they will play them incorrectly and with little use or application.

[keypeg]

quoting Louispodesta: The fact of the matter is that I spent five decades playing useless exercises, scales and arpeggios.

This point concerns me.  Surely, you can see the problem here.  Scales and exercises are concepts that need to be applied to your practice.  You must understand that an object or concept is only ever as good as how it is used or applied.  If a person flippantly ploughs through scales and studies, without thought, of course they will play them incorrectly and with little use or application.

I don't think it is a matter of a student working mindlessly.  I have spent time talking privately to students over the past 6 or 7 years, and with some of them, a certain pattern has emerged as to how they had been taught, or were being taught.  There seems to be a certain kind of teacher, "old-fashioned traditional of a given type of school" perhaps, that believes that a certain litany of pieces, etudes, and scales, in and of itself, will form technique.  I.e. if you "do Hanon", and "do Czerny" and "do Inventions", and do (insert what comes next) your skills will form through this "doing".  The teacher watches from week to week, says what is wrong, and maybe says "It should sound like this - watch me".  Any student who does not benefit from this and starts being in trouble is then seen as an untalented student, with the conclusion that "a portion of my students will fail, because some lack talent" -- rather than questioning this approach.

When I asked students getting that kind of teaching about what they were being taught about how to do things, or even understanding the theory part, there was a big blank - the "how" wasn't there.  I suspect that this is the kind of thing that Louis was subjected to (Louis - am I off?) and the pattern that he knows.

If you don't get at the "how", then a repetitive type of etude that repeats the same motions for the sake of practice will actually be harmful, because then you are repeating the same wrong thing over and over, entrenching it, and possibly even injuring yourself.

[vishal733]

I have been writing a reply then deleting it; i forced myself to write and post.

You have developed a technique of tension.  When you play, you have adopted high shoulders and very stiff hands, arms.  You may not realise this; you might have even become used to this sensation.  The problem here is that you cannot solve this problem overnight, or while you are studying this piece of music.

Unfortunately, to move forward you need to backtrack, a little, working on you ability to play in a manner that is efficient.  This will involved back to simply concepts like scales in a relaxed calm manner.

The idea here is working on the element you need to improve, by using an already learned simple technique.  If you work on trying to relax while playing this piece of music, unfortunatly, you will ruin your hard work on the piece, and likely fail.  It would be like trying to pump a football up, and kick it at the same time ... while taking note in your black book of your findings and directing the rest of your team.

I hope this helps you at least a little.

Thanks Vani. I really appreciate your feedback. It's thoughtful, and to the point!

Your name tells me you might be from India as well. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find good teachers to help me with the technique. Even though you might not be a teacher, I'm sure some interaction with you will help. Let me know if it's possible.

[vishal733]

Thank you all for some useful comments. I have jotted down some of the key take-aways.


Regarding finding a teacher:
- It’s not about money. I’ve been unsuccessful in finding a suitable teacher in Bangalore, India (I’ve tried 3 of them). Any suggestions (in terms of direct contacts), are welcome.
If I find the right teacher, I'll surely take occassional lessons from them. I understand that the "right" external inputs can be really helpful


===================
Some of my takeaways
===================
- The no. 1 rule for good technique is that it should feel comfortable. [lostinidlewonder]
- Play a bit, stop and check your breathing. Relax. Adjust your posture. Listen to the chords. [bronnestam]
- My playing style is quite tense. Do some scales. Relax. And let the body adapt in a natural way. The human body is pretty good at figuring stuff out on it’s own. Also, [j_tour]
- Never practise through pain. Pain is body’s signal that you are doing something wrong. [dogperson]
- Sometimes bad movements can be trained to feel comfortable and in that case you do need a teacher to help you appreciate more economical movements and especially and in that case you do need a teacher. [lostinidlewonder]
- Know the notes. Get comfortable at the instrument. You have to eventually reach a stage where you don’t have to think about the technique. [adodd81802]
- Practise things well within the comfort zone.
- Almost everyone teaches himself or herself [j_tour]
- It’s kind of important to develop the right technique from the onset. Otherwise, you might end up in a situation where you have to unlearn some of the wrong habits developed, which can need a lot of work. [keypeg]
- Please get a teacher to help you work through correct posture, and movements. The advice you get from a teacher is IN PERSON and you can’t fix this alone. [dogperson]
- Play with attention to details, otherwise you would carryover your habits and tension from the way you play.
- Work on the element you need to improve (in this case finger/hand technique), by using an already learned simple piece of music. Improvement cannot be done overnight, but has to be worked out carefully. [vaniii]
- Gieseking’s Piano Technique book is good to understand some common-sense principles to performing [j_tour]


- Hanon exercises: Are not the best way.
(vishal733: In my understanding, doing sight reading of classical piano pieces might be a better bet, as compared to the mindless repetitive Hanon exercises)

[vishal733]

why can't you simply keep your hand expanded, this will save you having to open/close/open/close your hand constantly.

Thanks! A very useful point to keep in mind.

This highlights a point of positional playing in piano, how to control a single position instead of constantly changing positions unnecessarily which can set us up for unnecessary exertion. Learn to see notes as a part of a group, as a part of a single position rather than they all being isolated and individual, this may help your hand control points without constantly altering shape and thus improve your technical efficiency.

The no 1 rule for good technique is that it should feel comfortable, if you feel tired or strained there is a problem. Sometimes bad movements can be trained to feel comfortable and in that case you do need a teacher to help you appreciate more economical movements and especially if your trail and errors don't improve it naturally or show you more options to explore. Even the most technically demanding pieces can be made soft and gentle in the hands, those who don't agree simply have inferior technique.

These are quite important points. Thanks once again!

[vaniii]

Thanks Vani. I really appreciate your feedback. It's thoughtful, and to the point!

Your name tells me you might be from India as well. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find good teachers to help me with the technique. Even though you might not be a teacher, I'm sure some interaction with you will help. Let me know if it's possible.

I am glad this advice was helpful, I almost did not post.  Unfortunately, I have become quite cynical of beginner pianists, simply because the normal trend is to disregard partially or entirely the advise given.  From you conclusive post, you understand what I am saying, and what others have alerted you to also.

I advise you to pick up some simple pieces (Czerny Op 599: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Czerny-Practical-Method-Beginners-Pianoforte-x/dp/0793525675, is a good start, and also progressive).  Make your aim to play calmly and completely relaxed, listening to the sound your making.  This will sound completely illogical, but, don't try to play music, simply put the notes down in time and the music will begin to reveal itself to you.  When you are feeling confident, you will naturally play it faster.  Speed is confidence nothing more; tension is a symptom of false confidence (or poor teaching which ever applies).

A side note; the feelings that music evokes are not from the music at all, but something we imprint on it.  The inspiration to pick up a piece of music usually comes from a good performance of the music which provokes said emotion.  This piece by Tierson, most likely evoked a similar response in you, which is undoubtedly why you play it.  Don't try to create that feeling when you play it, instead work on the tools that will allow your version of this piece to evoke this feeling in another person; technique.

This technique:

- Cantabile: A singing melody, over a quiet accompaniment.
- Tapered phrasing: crescendo at the start of your melody, diminuendo at the end.
- Secure sense of time: count your measures even when you don't think you need to.
- Make the focus, your sound, not you.

Work on one element at a time; most importantly, your ability to relax your muscles.

The most frequent mistake I encounter is a student who is trying to impress their audience, by playing everything fast (because that is what they deem to be impressive piano playing).

Unfortunately, I am not from India, my name is is a play on Beethoven's 3rd symphony: hence 'van' 'iii (3)'.

[keypeg]

Vishal, I wrote once responding to another poster, but haven't responded to your post.

I've been learning the piano for 2 years (mostly on my own, and under a teacher for 6 months).

.....................

I believe more in self-learning, rather than learning from a teacher. This is what works better for me. ....

I was a self-learner, and this was not by choice.  When I was young I was given a little air blown organ (1960's), then a piano.  I was given a book meant for self-teaching adults - I found the book recently so now I know what it was - and later books my grandmother had used - these were intermediate level sonatinas and a book of Czerny etudes, all of it published around 1910 and used in a conservatory in Bayreuth.  I played up a storm in my own manner.  Decades later my mother told me that I had a "crude and rough" way of playing.  Then I had no piano for 35 years.  Then lessons on another instrument, where I got to understand about technique.  My self-teaching time lasted from age 8 to 18.

I got a piano again several decades later.  At first I could not get a teacher and chafed at that.  I tried to rectify my playing as well as I could from what I could find via the net, and refrained from playing much, esp. harder things, until I could find that teacher.  The one thing I did "learn" (scales, by Cooke) is the thing that we've had a right time trying to undo the damage of.  What you read, what you understand that you read, and what you understand your body to be doing vis a vis this, any or all of this can be off.

So I know a little bit about the self-teaching side.   I will say that I also learned many things from it - not to make it all black and white.

I have been working with a teacher for quite a while.  First point: any teacher is not good or better than self-teaching; a poorish or mediocre one may be worse than going it alone.

When it comes to doing what "feels relaxed" or "without undue tension" - when you are guided into this, you will realize for the first time what this is, and until you have experienced it, whatever you are doing presently will feel correct to you, because it's the only experience you know.  Another thing is that the teacher will see things you don't see, from unexpected places you would never think to look, and if you go with what is suggested.  I have a great deal of independence with my teacher: a great deal of self-observation and responsibility for myself - and given the mess that has to be undone, it is even necessary.

The only way to be able to form true opinion of what is best for our learning in regards to (good) teacher or not, is by having experienced both sides.  The "good" part is important.
-----------
In regards to observations of your playing.  As a learner myself, I am not qualified but I will offer some general impressions, gut feelings if you will.  I suspect that your body is not working as a unit, the fingers are doing a lot of the work, and that you are holding the non-playing fingers "out of the way" which creates the tension we see.  If so, things you do with the fingers will feed back tension into the wrists, arms, or neck.  These are things I have had to work through myself so I may be extrapolating.  Knowing that the body works together, that what happens in the fingers happens along the entire system, and being able to work with that idea, are two separate things.  Personally I have needed feedback and a back and forth, because I cannot see what I can't see, or understand what I can't yet understand. That is, after several years I can start understanding what I see in videos of people playing, or on-line lessons and demos (including the bs) but can still be caught out.

Best of luck to you.  It takes courage to post a video like you did, and you have worked hard.

[louispodesta]

Now, please understand my predicate because it took me awhile, because I am a pianist/philosopher.  Accordingly, what is happening here is reverse xenophobia!

Hey, if this was some so-called talented Anglo-Saxon ""White Boy," you guys would be tearing him/her to shreds!

Because this Fake Post (in my opinion) black man OP proffers the aforesaid nonsensical load of piano technique garbage, then: oh my gosh, we should give him every benefit of the doubt.

No one, Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, or Thomas Mark teaches any one to play with a flexed outstretched hand.  Yet, virtually everyone who has posted here takes the OP's basic predicate as a possible fact.

Once again, Pianostreet is playing games because they need controversial posts to generate revenue.

As proof (no racism intended), please notice how very well-written this "beginning pianist's" responses are.  This (in my opinion) is part of a pianostreet subterfuge to generate more replies to a "fake" post.

[outin]

Wow, a new conspiracy theory! Someone should be careful though not to go too far...

[mjames]

Now, please understand my predicate because it took me awhile, because I am a pianist/philosopher.  Accordingly, what is happening here is reverse xenophobia!

Hey, if this was some so-called talented Anglo-Saxon ""White Boy," you guys would be tearing him/her to shreds!

Because this Fake Post (in my opinion) black man OP proffers the aforesaid nonsensical load of piano technique garbage, then: oh my gosh, we should give him every benefit of the doubt.

Where the hell did you get racism from?!??!!?  
Either you are mentally ill or just simply a troll. XD


P.S. he is indian

[hardy_practice]

We will miss you Loius!

[vaniii]

Now I am very confused.

Louis, I have the utmost respect for you, and your dedication, but this ... WOW!


Sometimes we can look so hard at somthing, we stop seeing it for what it is.

[tenk]

Now, please understand my predicate because it took me awhile, because I am a pianist/philosopher.  Accordingly, what is happening here is reverse xenophobia!

Hey, if this was some so-called talented Anglo-Saxon ""White Boy," you guys would be tearing him/her to shreds!

Because this Fake Post (in my opinion) black man OP proffers the aforesaid nonsensical load of piano technique garbage, then: oh my gosh, we should give him every benefit of the doubt.

No one, Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, or Thomas Mark teaches any one to play with a flexed outstretched hand.  Yet, virtually everyone who has posted here takes the OP's basic predicate as a possible fact.

Once again, Pianostreet is playing games because they need controversial posts to generate revenue.

As proof (no racism intended), please notice how very well-written this "beginning pianist's" responses are.  This (in my opinion) is part of a pianostreet subterfuge to generate more replies to a "fake" post.

I've been saying he's a hack fraud for months...

[vishal733]

Now, please understand my predicate because it took me awhile, because I am a pianist/philosopher.  Accordingly, what is happening here is reverse xenophobia!

Hey, if this was some so-called talented Anglo-Saxon ""White Boy," you guys would be tearing him/her to shreds!

Because this Fake Post (in my opinion) black man OP proffers the aforesaid nonsensical load of piano technique garbage, then: oh my gosh, we should give him every benefit of the doubt.

No one, Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, or Thomas Mark teaches any one to play with a flexed outstretched hand.  Yet, virtually everyone who has posted here takes the OP's basic predicate as a possible fact.

Once again, Pianostreet is playing games because they need controversial posts to generate revenue.

As proof (no racism intended), please notice how very well-written this "beginning pianist's" responses are.  This (in my opinion) is part of a pianostreet subterfuge to generate more replies to a "fake" post.

Hey Louis,
I've been ignoring your comments for quite a while!
One of the reasons is you seem a very senior person by age. And secondly, the strange words you use doesn't affect me.

Although I'm still at a very beginner stage of piano playing, I love this instrument. It has changed my life. I can involve myself endlessly with it, and not care about the crap around.

I have a friendly suggestion (for your sake, and if you are not a troll!). F*ck all the arguments here, or even otherwise. Just go and play the piano. Really involve yourself with it. Fall in love! And forget all the stupid things and negativity (which are evident from your posts on pianostreet) that come to your mind.

If you have something radical to say after this, I'm sorry! I don't see a point responding... I've already said what I had to, in the previous paragraph!!!

And if you are just a troll!! Watch Southpark season 20. It's all about you guys. You will enjoy it!!!  

PS: I'm tired of your preachiness of Taubman in every other post. I hope you don't scare away those who could genuinely benefit from her technique, by your non-sensical posts.

Sarcasm apart. I hope you take my friendly advice seriously!

PPS: I do see some level of genuine effort by you to help me out. Thanks for that!!

[tenk]

However, I came up with a methodology of my own which allowed me to then sight-read the notes to 47 piano concertos (two a day) in the next five years.

Anyone need further proof the guy is a fraud?

[louispodesta]

This is no contest, and please get that out of your collective minds.

However, for all those who choose to persist in this ludicrous debate, all you have to do is prove that the OP is an actual pianist, who has studied under an actual teacher (name or school required), and that the OP has had no contact with the founder/moderator of this website, and then I will go away (forever)!

For God's sake, look at his video.  If a prospective student, (regardless of race or ethnicity) tried to pull this on you, would you be that naïve?

This is a mature adult, not some ten year old.  And, please remember "Relaxed hands, and proper finger/hand muscle technique."  Would a rank amateur ever phrase a post in this manner?

I am done.

[lostinidlewonder]

louispodesta you have not clearly pointed out why you think the OP is a fraud everything you say is simply your opinion (which you do not even clearly define) that doesn't really convince me.

For example:

For God's sake, look at his video.  If a prospective student, (regardless of race or ethnicity) tried to pull this on you, would you be that naïve?

Naive about what? There are clear technical problems with the playing which some of us have pointed out.

This is a mature adult, not some ten year old.  And, please remember "Relaxed hands, and proper finger/hand muscle technique."  Would a rank amateur ever phrase a post in this manner?

Yes they would phrase a post in this manner, are you saying that in this entire world no amateur would do it? How should an amateur phrase it to your approval? I would like to see that! lol.

[keypeg]

And, please remember "Relaxed hands, and proper finger/hand muscle technique."  Would a rank amateur ever phrase a post in this manner?

Louis, I have walked in similar shoes, if not the same ones.  By now I have been working a few years with an excellent teacher, but it was not always so.  We are in the age of the Internet, and when people want to learn things, we do research.  If someone wants to learn how to play the piano and googles for advice, these are exactly the the kinds of concepts and terms they will find.  I know, because I've done my own research back in my own time.
The danger in this is that you will get a host of information, but you will not necessarily grasp what it means on a physical level.  In fact, actual teachers and performers may spend less time on such abstract concepts, and more time developing playing using deceptively simple things.
The OP's playing itself is what I would expect to see from someone who has listened a lot to how the music should sound, has probably spent countless hours on the music, and applied what he understood.  The somewhat fingery manner without the rest of the body being engaged is not what I would see if this were done under a teacher - especially a decent one.

Self-taught adults --- I was one, when I did not have the opportunity otherwise --- may be "ignorant" in terms of the musical training they have not received, but are often intelligent, motivated people, persistent, and using the resources they can find ... resources which can create vocabulary.

Meanwhile when there is excellent English by someone who is not a national of an English speaking country: the language is taught in many countries very well, and you will not know how many hours anyone has spent rewriting, and rewriting his post, to make sure it is well written.

The truth is that we cannot tell about anybody anywhere when they post on the Net.  When someone asks for help, if I can help, I give it.  There was a time when I was lost and in need, and it was given to me.  So why not?

By the way, there is nothing "controversial" about the post, if controversy is supposed to bring up readership.  The attempts at readership comes through the e-mails we get about feature articles, and the latest "blog" thing that gets spread over the top of these pages presently, under the belief that we like blogs, and that what is featured are blogs. (They're articles).

[tenk]

This is no contest, and please get that out of your collective minds.

However, for all those who choose to persist in this ludicrous debate, all you have to do is prove that the OP is an actual pianist, who has studied under an actual teacher (name or school required), and that the OP has had no contact with the founder/moderator of this website, and then I will go away (forever)!

For God's sake, look at his video.  If a prospective student, (regardless of race or ethnicity) tried to pull this on you, would you be that naïve?

This is a mature adult, not some ten year old.  And, please remember "Relaxed hands, and proper finger/hand muscle technique."  Would a rank amateur ever phrase a post in this manner?

I am done.

You're a joke, is what you are.