Help/Advice Shoulder Tension

[michael_robinson]

Hello Everyone,

I'm usually a spectator through these forums, but I'm hoping that I could get some helpful assistance with an issue I've been having lately.

I've recently begun to grasp the idea of arm weight and I've tried to apply it to Chopin's Nocturne, Op. 9 No. 2. I feel no tension in my right arm, wrist, and shoulder (which is exciting for me!), but unfortunately, my left shoulder is feeling incredibly tense!

I've begun to suspect that the tension is arising when I'm playing chords. When not playing, I've begun to stretch out my fingers (as if I was going to play a chord with my LH) to test this theory, and it seems to hold true; I feel tension throughout my arm when stretching my fingers.

With that said, I'm not fully invested in this idea because, in the past, I've learned it could be a number of things. What I do know for certain is that it occurs when I'm playing chords.

I'm currently trying to obtain a camera so that I could view from a distance what I'm doing while I'm playing. I expect to get a camera within the week, so maybe I could post a video to better illustrate what I'm trying to describe.

If anyone--either from personal experience or expertise--can provide some feedback about this, I would greatly appreciate it!

-Michael

[hardy_practice]

You cannot play without tension - sometimes quite literally massive amounts.  The 'trick' is to relax the instant you've done that stretch or played that massive chord.  

[bronnestam]

First, I want to ask you if you use a good piano bench (adjustable height) or if you have a low-budget solution. I have seen many videos where the player has been sitting on desk chairs, kitchen chair and even on beds (!) ... obviously because they have so little space in their rooms, but it hurts just to watch ...

Then, I suggest that you just try to play a chord, with one or both hands, and then you stay there, sit still with the keys pressed down. THIS should be your most relaxed position! If you feel tension while you try to maintain this position, you are definitely having wrong posture. For example, do you feel that you must continue pressing to stay in that position? Do you feel tension in your body?

Again, this is your resting point. Then, if you are to move from it, to another chord, you must of course make an effort to lift your hand and arm and move to next position, but then - boom, back to rest again.

I also believe most of us get a bit tense when we play something difficult and know that THIS particularly hard passage is awaiting around the corner. In worst case we get nervous about it several bars in beforehand! How can you avoid tensing up (and shoulder tension is the major symptom) in such situations? Well, I recommend backward chaining for that. Start by playing the last note of that difficult passage, then add the second last and so on. You will get pretty tired of that last note after a while, but the real big advantage is that it gets very familiar too. Finally it becomes your "grounding point", the place where you land = your new resting point.

And in that way you will get more and more relaxed the closer you come to this point, instead of the opposite ...

I am no expert or piano teacher or anything, I just write from my own limited experience. To me this works, at least.

[michael_robinson]

I'm currently using an office chair. Thank you very much for your advice. I'll make sure to try these out!

[pianoamatuer]

First, I want to ask you if you use a good piano bench (adjustable height) or if you have a low-budget solution. I have seen many videos where the player has been sitting on desk chairs, kitchen chair and even on beds (!) ... obviously because they have so little space in their rooms, but it hurts just to watch ...

I am only a amateur but I have to agree with this. I've recently realized that my bench is EXTREMELY below the piano. I had to often create tension with my arms and shoulders so my hands would be high enough to reach the keys. Of course, us humans are horrible at realizing our own incompetence, so I had no idea. Until recently, my teacher is focusing on my hand posture and we are working on wrist height, relaxed, curled fingers, etc. I had to put two pillows on my bench so I could press the keys without having to create tension.

[louispodesta]

Okay, per the OP, get yourself a camera like the rest of us have, and then post a video relative to your specific problem.

This problem has been extensively addressed by modern technique coaches such as the late Dorothy Taubman, and it has also been extensively taught by Edna Golandsky, and my coach Dr. Thomas Mark.

I do not have a crystal ball, so get a camera and post a video example of your problem, please.
 

[inkspot]

You cannot play without tension - sometimes quite literally massive amounts.  The 'trick' is to relax the instant you've done that stretch or played that massive chord.  

I second this completely. It takes a little bit on awareness to learn, but once you do it becomes second nature.

Think of it this way, once you play the chord and the notes sound, there is no reason to keep digging into the keyboard. The note can only decay (as its called) after its played, so putting force into the keyboard after the fact won't do anything for your sound.

Now, as far as knowing when to release that tension, and how to get better at it? Slow practice. Its tedious at times, but its so very useful. I didn't appreciate it nearly enough before, but after biting the bullet and trying it out as part of my practice routine, I was amazed. Its just one of those things you have to do because there is no effective replacement for it.

[michael_robinson]

Thank you for your tips everyone. I feel it's worth mentioning that I've taken up the Alexander Technique and I've already been able to identify and work on significant tension that I'm holding in my elbow/forearm.

inkspot: I think it is indeed time to bit the bullet.

Thanks again,

Michael

[pianoplayer002]

You cannot play without tension - sometimes quite literally massive amounts.  The 'trick' is to relax the instant you've done that stretch or played that massive chord.  

Ugh, this is such dangerous advice because different people define "tension" differently - and to some, hearing that you're actually SUPPOSED to have some tension (or even "massive amounts" of tension) is going to spell disaster.

In OP's case I wouldn't listen to it, because it sounds like OP has a shoulder that is tensed/locked and needs to learn how to release that.

[inkspot]

Ugh, this is such dangerous advice because different people define "tension" differently - and to some, hearing that you're actually SUPPOSED to have some tension (or even "massive amounts" of tension) is going to spell disaster.

In OP's case I wouldn't listen to it, because it sounds like OP has a shoulder that is tensed/locked and needs to learn how to release that.

Yes, the definition of tension matters. In this case though, I think what we are trying to clarify is that there are some forms of tension which are useful, and some which are not. Identifying which is which, then releasing that which is bad, is part of the challenge in learning to play the piano effectively.

[pianoplayer002]

Yes, the definition of tension matters. In this case though, I think what we are trying to clarify is that there are some forms of tension which are useful, and some which are not. Identifying which is which, then releasing that which is bad, is part of the challenge in learning to play the piano effectively.

Here is also a definition problem. In my own playing and teaching all tension is viewed as harmful and limiting. With tension, playing is going to be clumsy, tiring and potentially harmful. What type of "tension" do you think is useful?

[louispodesta]

Here is also a definition problem. In my own playing and teaching all tension is viewed as harmful and limiting. With tension, playing is going to be clumsy, tiring and potentially harmful. What type of "tension" do you think is useful?

"Golly gee,"(W.M.F. Buckley) just where do you non-technical specialists get off on giving this kind of so-called advice.  Unlike Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, and Thomas Mark, you state unequivocally that constant tension is a normal part of piano playing.  IT IS NOT!!!

Instead of restating for the umpteenth time what those modern technicians have and do teach on this particular subject, I will just say that those who have posted here might and may have done irreparable harm to the OP.

This is effectuated by your commenting on the kinesiology associated with playing the piano which you have no more research based knowledge other than to render you own personal attestations/opinions.

[hardy_practice]

Ugh, this is such dangerous advice because different people define "tension" differently - and to some, hearing that you're actually SUPPOSED to have some tension (or even "massive amounts" of tension) is going to spell disaster.

It's weird you take my first sentence and ignore the second!  Here it is again for you -  'The 'trick' is to relax the instant you've done that stretch or played that massive chord.' 

[pianoplayer002]

"Golly gee,"(W.M.F. Buckley) just where do you non-technical specialists get off on giving this kind of so-called advice.  Unlike Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, and Thomas Mark, you state unequivocally that constant tension is a normal part of piano playing.  IT IS NOT!!!

I do? Where?

It's weird you take my first sentence and ignore the second!  Here it is again for you -  'The 'trick' is to relax the instant you've done that stretch or played that massive chord.' 

I heard what you said - and I'll reiterate that I view ANY wording that includes the word "tension" as something you *should* do as harmful for many. Perceiving any kind of tension when reaching for a chord (even if you relax the instant you've played it) can be sub-optimal at best, harmful at worst. For many, including me, using the word "tension" includes a perception of tension (ie clenching, locking) in the muscles, which means the muscles are not free (and this can have harmful effects on playing and muscular health).

[keypeg]

The real reality of this is that such things cannot be dealt with in words (especially) and should be dealt with in person, with someone who knows what he is seeing.  The arguing is rather futile, because it is impossible to know what any person means by any term, which the other one then tries to refute according to how he thinks the term was meant, etc.

[hardy_practice]

Perceiving any kind of tension when reaching for a chord

How can you reach without tension?  That more or less is the definition of tension.

If you think you can play a FFF chord without tensing every muscle in your body then you don't know much about the body.  How to relax afterwards is where profound learning is required.  

[pianoplayer002]

How can you reach without tension?  That more or less is the definition of tension.

If you think you can play a FFF chord without tensing every muscle in your body then you don't know much about the body.  How to relax afterwards is where profound learning is required. 

I think your and my definition of "tense muscles" must extremely different because I do not feel like we speak the same language. I do not equate movement and tension. On a cellular level, yes, there are muscle fibers that are contracting and others that are not, but on a mental and verbal level, in terms of how it FEELS in the body, "moving" a muscle and "tensing" a muscle are two different things for me. Are they not for you?

When I reach for a chord I have no perception of tension in my body. My hand feels very easy and free. If I would feel like I was tensing muscles when reaching for a chord it would be very uncomfortable to play. If I would tense every muscle in my body my arms would be hurting like hell playing FFF. There is no need to tense anything up when you can just move where you want to go. (by the way, this is an acquired skill that I did not have when I started playing. So there is a clear difference between how it feels playing chords when tensing a lot of muscles and how it feels being free and not tensing)

When you talk to somebody, are you tensing up your mouth per your definition? If I were to give you the instruction "tense up your mouth", what would you do? Would it be the same or something different from what you would do when just talking?

[hardy_practice]

When I reach for a chord I have no perception of tension in my body. My hand feels very easy and free.

If you can feel how you are overcoming gravity - that's tension.  If you are not able to feel that at will you don't know how to relax.

[anamnesis]

No other pairing of words have led to an endless merry-go-round of discussion as well as results for students than those of tension and relaxation. 

[pianoplayer002]

If you can feel how you are overcoming gravity - that's tension.  If you are not able to feel that at will you don't know how to relax.

I'm fairly confident in my understanding of muscular freedom - but as always with an art there is always more to be learned. If you'd like to answer my specific questions in my previous post, feel free to do so.

No other pairing of words have led to an endless merry-go-round of discussion as well as results for students than those of tension and relaxation.

Indeed. I think it's very important to show the student how it's actually supposed to feel, in their body, instead of just using words which such a general and diffuse definition to explain, since it so easily can be misunderstood, as you say.

[hardy_practice]

Indeed. I think it's very important to show the student how it's actually supposed to feel, in their body, instead of just using words

This is a forum, 'just using words' is what it's about (though I have posted the odd instructional vid in the past).

Tension is tension - define the word/concept as you wish.  Release is the true art (and sport).

[amandack]

I would try playing chords on a table. Just get your hands in position and then mentally work through relaxing throughout your wrist, arm, elbow, shoulder, etc. It's easier to do it not at the piano, because the worry of hitting the right notes goes away and you can just focus on the feeling of playing a chord and being relaxed.

[dcstudio]

I'm currently using an office chair. Thank you very much for your advice. I'll make sure to try these out!

That's the problem.  Get a bench