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Topic: Deliberate Practice  (Read 3569 times)

Offline pianoamatuer

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Deliberate Practice
on: December 26, 2016, 04:24:34 AM
I'm sure most of the professionals know this term. Deliberate practice. It's pretty much the best way to practice, albeit it is very, very energy consuming. Can anyone explain to me how this method can be applied to piano? The books explain the method but I really want to know specifically, how can this crucially important type of practice apply to piano specifically? How am I supposed to go about doing this? Oh, can you even make deliberate practice fun?
Some people say deliberate practice can be done in sessions throughout the day. Some say to do it when you have the most stamina. Some say that you should not overdo practice [a book emphasizes that a study found out that after practicing over 4 hours progress begins to actually decline.] I want to know your personal thoughts on deliberate practice, advice on it, how to do it specifically, examples.. just pretty much what you see it as and how it affects you. OH, and how to do it on the piano..
Thanks for taking the time to read this!

I'm just a amateur taking a unconventional approach on the graceful, amazing piano.

Offline dogperson

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #1 on: December 26, 2016, 06:12:33 PM
'Deliberate practice' on the piano to me means as follows:
-Identify a problem section/measure  that needs work.  This should not be 'all of page 1', but should be 'measures 2-3' or even the first two chords on the score.   Small bites of the music.  Even to identify the problems mean you must be on full mental alert.
- Isolate the problem of the section:  is it speed, clarity, dynamics, voicing, fingering,  pedal technique?
- Concentrate on practicing on that one section/measure/chord in a MINDFUL, FOCUSED way.  This may mean that I need to work on technique related to improving the section:  whether the thumb is in place soon enough, the position of the hand, the curve of the finger, etc.  It may mean breaking down the measure into hands separately, changing the rhythm or the speed in order to refine it.
- Set a time for the particular practice session on the problem: usually no more than 15 minutes at a time.  I don't find that adding significant time to this in one session is helpful at all. There is quickly a point of diminishing returns.  Come back to it later today  or tomorrow.
-Evaluate how you are doing:  improved? success?  not improved?  If not improved, can you take a different approach to solving the problem?   I really rely on my teacher to help me come up with a different approach to solving the problem; she can think of MANY more approaches to problem solving than I can.   If successful, can you repeat the success?  Can you repeat it tomorrow?
- If I am going to practice longer than this approx 15 minutes, I work on another problem in the same  or different score
-I do not allow myself to just start from the beginning of the score and play through what I can do: I work on the 'bumps'.
-As has been mentioned many times by others, SLOW practice cannot be overemphasized.

Deliberate practice on the piano means your mind must be focused, your ears listening and you must pay attention to your progress and what you need to change in order to move the section out of  your problem list.  If you are not focused in every way possible, the practice is not deliberate.

 For me, I find deliberate practice LESS energy consuming as the progress is much faster.  When I re-started piano as an adult, I practiced for HOURS a day, but it was not effective, deliberate practice.  I would therefore come to my next week's lesson, having diligently practiced but with little progress; quite demoralizing.  I decided that there had to be a better way to practice and did a lot of reading/thinking about how to improve practice.  I have decreased my practice time per day but have seen much greater progress.  That, to me, is less energy consuming.  I can now use the 15 minutes while the water is boiling or before work in the morning to work on a problem.  And yes, I find it 'fun'; it is fun to think about approaching the same problem from a different perspective and it is VERY fun to see progress.  :)

There have been studies that practicing immediately before bedtime is helpful for progress. Your brain seems to absorb what you work on immediately before bedtime.

Disclaimer:  I am not a teacher, nor any other type of  professional musician;  no credentials other than an adult returning student.

Offline vaniii

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #2 on: December 27, 2016, 01:57:14 AM
Deliberate practise from my perspective is a collection of things that results in thourough understanding.

In order:

Not touching the piano but looking at the music in front of me untangling unfamiliar shapes.

Playing through at a very slow tempo taking everything written down in.

Thinking fully about my body; psychologically, emotionally and physically. These are important, particularly on a first play through.   They have a dramatic effect on progress because they are what you build your music on.

Lastly removing all doubts; it is toxic to progress. If at any point, I hesitate to find a note because I am unsure, the effects can be devastating. In deliberate practise I aim to get it right on purposes.

Slow down.

Offline j_tour

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #3 on: December 27, 2016, 02:56:38 AM
I'm not following.  I'm not trying to threadsh**, but isn't that what everyone does when practicing, or learning new pieces or learning new technical things? 

It is for me, anyway.  Yeah, one can go too far in micro-analyzing every last movement, but, and here's my zen yogi come-away, ultimately one pays attention.

I'm like average-below at it, and Hamelin or Liszt were really good at it, but isn't that the way most things go in life?
My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America.  Bad word make me sad.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #4 on: December 30, 2016, 11:50:48 PM
I'm sure most of the professionals know this term. Deliberate practice. It's pretty much the best way to practice, albeit it is very, very energy consuming. Can anyone explain to me how this method can be applied to piano? The books explain the method but I really want to know specifically, how can this crucially important type of practice apply to piano specifically? How am I supposed to go about doing this? Oh, can you even make deliberate practice fun?
Some people say deliberate practice can be done in sessions throughout the day. Some say to do it when you have the most stamina. Some say that you should not overdo practice [a book emphasizes that a study found out that after practicing over 4 hours progress begins to actually decline.] I want to know your personal thoughts on deliberate practice, advice on it, how to do it specifically, examples.. just pretty much what you see it as and how it affects you. OH, and how to do it on the piano..
Thanks for taking the time to read this!


I have responded to your initial post by PM.  Accordingly, in that you are new to the mechanics associated with this particular website, I advise the following:  If you wish to respond, just click on your moniker and then go from there.

All the best, and your question has been very often broached and very seldom/rarely answered.

Good for you!

Offline aliceinpianoland

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #5 on: December 31, 2016, 12:39:05 AM
Quote
I have responded to your initial post by PM.  Accordingly, in that you are new to the mechanics associated with this particular website, I advise the following:  If you wish to respond, just click on your moniker and then go from there.

I don't get it...  :( It happens that just yesterday I was searching on the subject! What's the purpose of the forum if the answers are in PMs? With all the respect, Louis, it doesn't make sense...

Thank you amatuer for your question! I couldn't believe in my eyes! What a synchronisation!!! :D

Dogperson, I loved your detailed answer, thank you! Furthermore, I whant to know what if there is not a specific problem, let's say when you start to learn a piece. What then? From what I have red, I think that deliberate practice is to break the piece into small fragments (phrases, bars... ) and practice them (along with their connection/transmition to the previous/next bar), but no more than a few minutes each one and in no particular order in every session. Then you go on on bigger fragments, but only in order to indentify problems. Is that so? In my understanding, the key-points are, as you have mentioned, very short fragments for just a few minutes, concentration in every aspect, evaluation of the progress, real-time feedback (even from yourself listening your recording) and frequent repetitions. Is that so, or am I missing something important?

[I'm just sooo happy to found you all! :) ]
French Suite in C minor, J.S. Bach
Sonata in D major, Hob XVI.37, J. Haydn
1ere Arabescue, Cl. Debussy
Trois Nouvelles Etudes, Fr. Chopin
22 Chants et Danses du Dodecanese, Yannis Konstantinidis

Offline dogperson

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #6 on: December 31, 2016, 01:13:09 AM
I don't get it...  :( It happens that just yesterday I was searching on the subject! What's the purpose of the forum if the answers are in PMs? With all the respect, Louis, it doesn't make sense...

Thank you amatuer for your question! I couldn't believe in my eyes! What a synchronisation!!! :D

Dogperson, I loved your detailed answer, thank you! Furthermore, I whant to know what if there is not a specific problem, let's say when you start to learn a piece. What then? From what I have red, I think that deliberate practice is to break the piece into small fragments (phrases, bars... ) and practice them (along with their connection/transmition to the previous/next bar), but no more than a few minutes each one and in no particular order in every session. Then you go on on bigger fragments, but only in order to indentify problems. Is that so? In my understanding, the key-points are, as you have mentioned, very short fragments for just a few minutes, concentration in every aspect, evaluation of the progress, real-time feedback (even from yourself listening your recording) and frequent repetitions. Is that so, or am I missing something important?

[I'm just sooo happy to found you all! :) ]


Identifying them and breaking them into small segments, for me, is the beginning of mastering the segment.  They are then mindfully practiced until they are no longer a problem. The steps involves identification, repetition, evaluation of the process and the progress.  I begin by playing through the score so that I can identify what are the problems to go onto my 'needs attention' list.

I have never played repertoire that does not have something that needs work-- it might just be refinement of the phrase,  fingering,  decisions about pedaling, etc.  Those are still problems to isolate.  But the reality, for me, is there are usually measures/sections that are LARGE problems. ... unevenness, tempo, dynamics that need improvement, etc.  ....  and those pesky Chopin fioritura.

I did not include in my original post reading the score through before playing.. but it does really help as a beginning step. 

And you're right about Louis:  He loves PM because he doesn't want to allow his response to be subject to review and comment like the rest of us.

Hope this helps.

Offline aliceinpianoland

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #7 on: December 31, 2016, 02:22:18 AM
Yes, thank you dogperson, you were very clear about everything!

I've also returned after many years of absence from piano and also had my share of those countless and counterproductive HOURS that you've descreibed. At the moment, I strive to find the optimum way to organise my practice routine. I think I'll ask my teacher to dedicate a lesson just to practice.

Of course, I neither have play a piece that doesn't need thoroughly practice in so many aspects. I'm not even sure that there would be such a piece in the future! I ment how do you apply deliberate practice from the scratch (in which I got the reply), not that there would not be at all issues to address!

PS. For a dogperson, you are OK kid...  :D
A catperson 8)
French Suite in C minor, J.S. Bach
Sonata in D major, Hob XVI.37, J. Haydn
1ere Arabescue, Cl. Debussy
Trois Nouvelles Etudes, Fr. Chopin
22 Chants et Danses du Dodecanese, Yannis Konstantinidis

Offline dogperson

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #8 on: December 31, 2016, 02:31:07 AM
Yes, thank you dogperson, you were very clear about everything!

I've also returned after many years of absence from piano and also had my share of those countless and counterproductive HOURS that you've descreibed. At the moment, I strive to find the optimum way to organise my practice routine. I think I'll ask my teacher to dedicate a lesson just to practice.

Of course, I neither have play a piece that doesn't need thoroughly practice in so many aspects. I'm not even sure that there would be such a piece in the future! I ment how do you apply deliberate practice from the scratch (in which I got the reply), not that there would not be at all issues to address!

PS. For a dogperson, you are OK kid...  :D
A catperson 8)


Actually, I have both a dog and a cat-child-- so a hybrid.
I hope you will post the discussion you have with your teacher about effective practice--- I have now had four highly trained teachers, and not one has addressed 'how' to practice.  I just did a lot of thinking and reading, as I couldn't keep practicing for hours a day with making the progress that I should.

FWIW:  I start my lessons the same way:  not from the beginning but those sections that are on my 'special attention' list,  and questions I have from the week's practice.  I use 'post-it-notes' and question marks to mark the areas which need my teacher.

If we have time, we go back and play from the beginning.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #9 on: December 31, 2016, 02:58:20 AM
I have responded to your initial post by PM.  Accordingly, in that you are new to the mechanics associated with this particular website, I advise the following:  If you wish to respond, just click on your moniker and then go from there.

All the best, and your question has been very often broached and very seldom/rarely answered.
The point of forums is that when a question is asked, the answer helps everyone.  That cannot happen in PMs. (?)

Offline aliceinpianoland

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #10 on: December 31, 2016, 03:53:36 AM
Quote
Actually, I have both a dog and a cat-child-- so a hybrid.

Pretty much the same here! Three hybrid-cats that are waiting for me to return in the corner and an hybrid-dog that comes and goes with the wind. Me, no hybrid, just an openmind cat-person... lol

Quote
I hope you will post the discussion you have with your teacher about effective practice--- I have now had four highly trained teachers, and not one has addressed 'how' to practice.  I just did a lot of thinking and reading, as I couldn't keep practicing for hours a day with making the progress that I should.

Sure I will. My next lesson won't be before Jan 7 and I don't know if we will dedicate this lesson to practice or the next one, but I will asap. I also have red a lot on the subject, I know what I was doing wrong, but I'm not sure how to... put in practice effective practice!

I guess that one of my biggest problem is this... fragmentation. Let's say that you are working with dynamics. Unless your phrase is starting either with a distinct ppp/fff, or with a dynamic totally opposite from the previous phrase, the dynamics of the phrase should much the ones of the previous... The same applies for the arm/hand/fingers position/shape. When your previous phrase is not ending with a rest, your arm arrives in the phrase you're practicing in a spasific way/shape, that you cannot simulate in your practice. This doesn't change much, even if you start from the last note of the previous phrase, cause even this last note could be stroke with so many ways, thus resulting in so many different hand/arm shapes/positions, that will affect the way that you will arrive in the practicing phrase...

One other problem that I'm dealing, is that there are so many "little" things that you have to do almost everyday even before your repertoire... Scales, arpeggios, chords, octaves, aural training, harmony, reading neuroscientific researches about learning  ;D (JK). And then, the repertoire, supposingly that I'll manage to work with small segments, even though, there is tremendous job that must be done! Plus, to record yourself and to listen to the recordings! I'm dedicating so many hours, but I feel like swimming in the ocean... It's OK, but I need a lighthouse and the conviction that I'm going in the right direction...

Quote
I start my lessons the same way:  not from the beginning but those sections that are on my 'special attention' list,  and questions I have from the week's practice.  I use 'post-it-notes' and question marks to mark the areas which need my teacher.

If we have time, we go back and play from the beginning.

I do the same, post-it included, but my teachers wants my questions in the beginning, then I play for him the complete piece/part, to identify problems that I haven't, and only then answers my questions, cause he doesn't want me to try to apply his suggestions without (examine them together and then...) practice them.

May God of Practice be with all of you!
French Suite in C minor, J.S. Bach
Sonata in D major, Hob XVI.37, J. Haydn
1ere Arabescue, Cl. Debussy
Trois Nouvelles Etudes, Fr. Chopin
22 Chants et Danses du Dodecanese, Yannis Konstantinidis

Offline pianoamatuer

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #11 on: January 02, 2017, 02:25:09 AM
Very interesting everyone! I'll be glad to hear some more thoughts. I personally just think of ways to improve a piece, starting with the most obvious and then getting down to the little annoying issues. Problem is, I have trouble identifying issues and how to actually solve them. I can find many errors in my playing, yet no idea on how to solve them.
pity!
I'm just a amateur taking a unconventional approach on the graceful, amazing piano.

Offline raytia

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #12 on: January 02, 2017, 06:53:43 AM
Very interesting everyone! I'll be glad to hear some more thoughts. I personally just think of ways to improve a piece, starting with the most obvious and then getting down to the little annoying issues. Problem is, I have trouble identifying issues and how to actually solve them. I can find many errors in my playing, yet no idea on how to solve them.
pity!

Sounds like you need a good teacher! :) They wil be able to help you identify and solve any issues you're having. Plus probably identify a whole range of issues you weren't even aware of (speaking from experience  ::) ).

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #13 on: January 02, 2017, 07:22:27 AM
I'm sure most of the professionals know this term. Deliberate practice. It's pretty much the best way to practice, albeit it is very, very energy consuming. Can anyone explain to me how this method can be applied to piano? The books explain the method but I really want to know specifically, how can this crucially important type of practice apply to piano specifically? How am I supposed to go about doing this? Oh, can you even make deliberate practice fun?
Some people say deliberate practice can be done in sessions throughout the day. Some say to do it when you have the most stamina. Some say that you should not overdo practice [a book emphasizes that a study found out that after practicing over 4 hours progress begins to actually decline.] I want to know your personal thoughts on deliberate practice, advice on it, how to do it specifically, examples.. just pretty much what you see it as and how it affects you. OH, and how to do it on the piano..
Thanks for taking the time to read this!



Deliberate just means you do it on purpose, for a purpose.  It means you think about what you are doing and why.  When you play anything, you want to do it on purpose so might as well practice that way.  How and what to practice is the tricky part since sometimes it gets revealed only after attempt at playing. That is when a good teacher can add value. 

Offline richard black

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Re: Deliberate Practice
Reply #14 on: January 02, 2017, 11:24:57 AM
Deliberate as opposed to accidental practice? Surely it's largely self-explanatory though? If you are having trouble doing something (anything, from fingering Feux Follets to cutting a piece of wood straight) you basically have two options:

1) Analyse what you are doing and work out for yourself exactly where it is giving you trouble and/or going wrong;

2) Ask someone more experienced than yourself for help with 1).

When all's said and done, that's about it, really.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.
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