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Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C (Read 12324 times)

Offline allchopin

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Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
« on: January 10, 2005, 06:17:54 PM »
Could someone supply the tonal progressions used in this piece?  I'm pretty sure I have a lot of them but I'm confused with some.
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piano sheet music of Etude


Offline richard w

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 01:01:13 AM »
If you give the bar numbers where you are 'confused' I'll have a look and give you my ideas - that is if someone doesn't beat me to it. This will save me from having to start from scratch!  ;D




Richard.

Offline allchopin

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 05:56:52 AM »
Sure, I'll go through what I have/dont have. (% means half diminished)
1: I
2: I
3: IV
4: IV+%7 ?  ,  II753 ?
5: V (I ignore left hand descent as passing tones, correct?)
6: II753 ?
7: ?
8: V7  ,  V763
9: I
10: I
11: IV6
12: IV65
13: ?
14: V
15: ?
16: I
17: IVM65
18: vii  ,  vii%7
19: ?
20: vi  ,  vi42
21: IV7
22: ?
23: ?
24: ?
25: VI753
26: ?  ,  II753
27: ?
28: V7
29: I7
30: I%43
31: IV7
32: V6 ?
33: ?
34: ?
35: VI (this seems to be rather a modulation to A major, is this a good assumption?)
36: VI
37: V7
38: ?  ,  V7
39: IM7
40: ?  ,  IVM7
41: vii%7
42: iii7  ,  vi7
43: ii7  ,  V7
44: IM7  ,  IVM7
45: vii%7
46: VII7
47: III
48: ?  ,  V43
49: I
50: I
51: IV
52: ?
53: V (again, passing tones in octaves)
54: II7
55: ?
56: V7  ,  V753
57: I
58: I
59: IV6
60: IV%65 (confusion about this measure)
61: ?
62: V
63: II65 ?
64: IV7
65: III
66: III
67: ii7
68: V7
69: I
70: Io7?
71: ?
72: ?
73: Vo7
74: ?
75: ?
76: V7
77: I
78: I
79: whew!

Thanks for any help.  :)
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #3 on: January 12, 2005, 11:32:28 AM »
HI everybody,

Maybe a stupid question, i'm asking it anyway:

For a fast perfomance you have to do a certain wrist movement (i heard).
What kind of wrist movement is it? Do you have to turn your hand(wrist)  to the direction of the notes, or just or only turn over your hand (and not pointing).

Thanks, Gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline richard w

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #4 on: January 12, 2005, 01:13:41 PM »
Ok, I've made a start. It's my lunch hour, so there's more to come yet, but.....

I notice you have worked out all your chords as if the piece remains in C major throughout, whereas it seems to me that Chopin modulates left, right and centre. A piece can easily start in C major, modulate to G major and back again. If you analyse it as if it were only in C major you have the problem of trying to explain the F sharp - which is not part of C major. This piece is fairly diatonic, for a romantic work, but consider a piece which starts in C major and goes through a range of keys, including say B major or G-flat minor, or E major? The chances are the chords are very simple primary triads, but the C major analysis would look as if the composer had devised a completely new harmonic language - kind of, anyway.

That said, your bar 4 question marks can be answered by realising that Chopin has moved to G major. You should find the chord to be a 63 chord V7 (V65) with a 9-8 suspension (er would that be V75 ?) that resolves on the 4th beat. I will carry on thus

Bar 5 - G major - I root position (treat other notes as passing)
Bar 6 - G major - V 7 root position
Bar 7 - back to C major - V 7 root position with two suspensions - flat9-8 and 4-3 (there might be a better way to express this - I'll check with Walter Piston when I get home)
Bar 8 - resolution of the above suspensions. 4th beat with augmented 5

And so on.

Bar 7 is a most interesting chord, and I can see why it caused confusion. It might help to listen to the music (play through) and try to work out what primary triad is actually 'functioning', and in what key. Then work out an explanation for the notes which aren't part of the basic triad. If you play through bar 7 now, you should be able to hear that it was chord 5 all along, just camouflaged with those suspensions.

That is how I would analyse it, anyway. I hope that helps.


Richard.





PS If you find out what the wrist movements are, tell me. I still can't play this piece!

Offline allchopin

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #5 on: January 12, 2005, 05:27:11 PM »
Thanks Rich,
Yes, I never planned on analysing the piece as constant modulations (a minor detail overlooked  ;)), which must be why I have many major second scale degrees and such!

In measure 4 you say that the notes comprising the first three beats (F#, A, C, E) form a V7 of G maj, but wouldn't this be a vii%7?  How did you know that this is actually a V65 suspension (where the E becomes a D)?

I don't quite understand the suspensions of measure 7 (and as far as how to write them).  The given notes are G, C, F, Ab, and D.  How did you know that the chord was a V root position when the B is not yet existent as well as ignoring non-chord tones?  For instance, I probably would've chosen to ignore the G and call it a ii%65!  I guess you need measure 8 to really know this?...

I'd also like some clarification on measure 60 on the third and fourth beats.  This is a diminished chord (Ab, C, Eb, F#) so is it named according to the letter names of the notes (as in F# being the bass, but an inversion)?  Because on the piano, the notes are, obviously, equally spaced in a diminshed chord making it impossible to tell what scale degree it is and which inversion - as it inverts it just becomes a root position in a new scale degree!

One final question, not regarding theory: In my recordings of Louis Lortie and Alfred Cortot, they play the initial left hand attack in measure 1, then in measure 2, strike another C an octave higher, as in the refrain in measures 49-50.  This is not in my edition, so I'm curious about the legitimacy of this extra note (actually they do it again later).
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline anda

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #6 on: January 12, 2005, 07:41:47 PM »

For a fast perfomance you have to do a certain wrist movement (i heard).
What kind of wrist movement is it? Do you have to turn your hand(wrist)  to the direction of the notes, or just or only turn over your hand (and not pointing).


you don't "have to" anything! :)

the wrist movement you're talking about (i think): i found (both by practicing as well as by teaching) that, especially for arpeggios, i can use my wrist to get my fingers on the keys they have to play by moving it (the wrist) roundly. i move the wrist in shape of the lower half of a circle (if the arpeggio is played by finger #1 - #5) or as the upper half of the circle (for arpeggios played by fingers #5 - #1).

especially for chopin op. 10 #1, combining this wrist move with a ample linear right-left move of the arm should help you get to tempo.

(hope you can understand my poor english...  ??? )

Offline richard w

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #7 on: January 13, 2005, 02:41:40 PM »
Quote
Thanks Rich,
Yes, I never planned on analysing the piece as constant modulations (a minor detail overlooked  ), which must be why I have many major second scale degrees and such!

Now, I should confess that I now realise modulation is not always the correct way to describe chromatic notes. Since my last post I have reconsidered my position slightly.

Quote
In measure 4 you say that the notes comprising the first three beats (F#, A, C, E) form a V7 of G maj, but wouldn't this be a vii%7?  How did you know that this is actually a V65 suspension (where the E becomes a D)?

I now think that bar 4 is better expressed as a secondary dominant, in this case V of V. In C major, chord V of V is D, F# and A. This, I think is the source of the F#, rather than a modulation, as I don't think the tonality of C major is lost. Therefore the chord progression would look like this:


Bar 1 - I
Bar 2 - I
Bar 3 - IV
Bar 4 - V6 of V
Bar 5 - V
Bar 6 - V of V
Bar 7 - V974
Bar 8 - V7
Bar 9 - I

The question now is how much to worry about the E in bar 4. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to consider it as an accented passing note, but if you think it is harmonically significant then you could consider the chord as being a dominant ninth in first inversion. This chord would contain five notes, but in four-part writing it is the convention to miss out the root when this chord is used in any of its inversions - that could partly explain why there is no D. You are also right to point out that this chord is the same as VII7 of V, but to my mind this creates too many problems. I'd suggest keeping things simple.

As for the suspension, I'm now less inclined to think that this is the correct way to describe this chord, for several reasons, but to give one, suspensions should be prepared in the preceding chord, and this hasn't happened here.

Quote
I don't quite understand the suspensions of measure 7 (and as far as how to write them).  The given notes are G, C, F, Ab, and D.  How did you know that the chord was a V root position when the B is not yet existent as well as ignoring non-chord tones?  For instance, I probably would've chosen to ignore the G and call it a ii%65!  I guess you need measure 8 to really know this?...

I've decided that there is only one suspension here, a 4-3. The chord is otherwise a dominant minor ninth, with the notes G, B (suspended as a C), D, F and A flat.

Quote
I'd also like some clarification on measure 60 on the third and fourth beats.  This is a diminished chord (Ab, C, Eb, F#) so is it named according to the letter names of the notes (as in F# being the bass, but an inversion)?  Because on the piano, the notes are, obviously, equally spaced in a diminshed chord making it impossible to tell what scale degree it is and which inversion - as it inverts it just becomes a root position in a new scale degree!

Bar 57 - I
Bar 58 - I
Bar 59 - IV6
Bar 60 -
Bar 61 - V4
Bar 62 - V
Bar 63 - V65 of V

Bar 60 is quite complex, but the whole bar is functioning as V of V. Beats one and two are of a dominant major ninth in second inversion (with D omitted), then on beat three it moves to the dominant minor ninth, and beat four is a German augmented sixth, which is sort of V of V also. I'm not actually sure of the best way to figure this, nor whether figures and numerals offer an adequate way of describing this.

Does that answer any of your questions, or does it create more?



Richard.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #8 on: January 13, 2005, 07:25:03 PM »


 i move the wrist in shape of the lower half of a circle (if the arpeggio is played by finger #1 - #5) or as the upper half of the circle (for arpeggios played by fingers #5 - #1).




Sorry, i dont know what you mean with the 'upper' or lower half of the circle, do you mean like clockwise?

thanks, gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline anda

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #9 on: January 13, 2005, 07:32:23 PM »


Sorry, i dont know what you mean with the 'upper' or lower half of the circle, do you mean like clockwise?
thanks, gyzzzmo

yes. me and my english...  ::)

did you understand everything else ?? wow...

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #10 on: January 14, 2005, 08:58:52 AM »
Dear anda,

your english skills are dazzling me. Never i've seen somebody writing such as these remarkable and poeticly quality, since shakespeare.

So i'm convinced your able to explain yourself in grace.

Your amazed fan,
Gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline allchopin

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #11 on: January 14, 2005, 09:04:09 PM »
I now think that bar 4 is better expressed as a secondary dominant, in this case V of V.
Is this written V of V in its most proper notation?
I don't think the tonality is lost in bar 4 because I almost find the F# to be a passing tone to get the G in the next measure's left hand.

Quote
This chord would contain five notes, but in four-part writing it is the convention to miss out the root when this chord is used in any of its inversions - that could partly explain why there is no D.
This is very interesting.. I've not yet come across these rules but I'll take your word for it  ;D.  But why do you say there is no D?  Beat four contains the much-anticipated D resulting from the questionable suspension. 

Quote
I've decided that there is only one suspension here, a 4-3. The chord is otherwise a dominant minor ninth, with the notes G, B (suspended as a C), D, F and A flat.
What about the Ab resolving to the G in m. 7-8?  Is this not a 9-8 sus?  And also, what about beat four of measure 8.. the D raises a half-step.  This isn't even a chord!

Quote
Does that answer any of your questions, or does it create more?
I definitely have some questions left for my teacher when I get back, but at least now I will have a good background for a lot of these chords. Thanks
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Offline richard w

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #12 on: January 16, 2005, 07:35:28 PM »
Quote
Is this written V of V in its most proper notation?

There are several ways to notate various aspects of harmony, but this is the only one I know for secondary dominants.

Quote
This is very interesting.. I've not yet come across these rules but I'll take your word for it  .  But why do you say there is no D?  Beat four contains the much-anticipated D resulting from the questionable suspension.

I said there was no D because there isn't in beats 1-3, but obviously its presence in beat four is significant.

Quote
What about the Ab resolving to the G in m. 7-8?  Is this not a 9-8 sus?

I think you are right. To my mind, harmony very often works on many different levels, and can be explained in more than one way. I prefer considering the A flat as a minor ninth. We are firmly in C major and a 9-8 suspension ought to be A natural to G. However, one is quite welcome to choose to flatten a ninth if desired. This is not to say one couldn't have a 9-8 suspension on chord V in C major with an A flat, but I've just opted for what I think fits most comfortably. In any event, the whole point of analysis is to reduce the score down to its fundamental structure. To quibble about an A flat won't get you to your destination - not that I'm accusing you of quibbling.

Quote
what about beat four of measure 8.. the D raises a half-step.  This isn't even a chord!

Again, this is only one note, which I disregarded in the analysis on account of it not really being tremendously significant to the overall tonal effect. But beat four of bar 8 can be described quite adequately in terms of harmony as chord V7 with an augmented 5.


I hope I was of some help.



Richard.

Offline anda

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #13 on: January 16, 2005, 08:24:38 PM »
Dear anda,

your english skills are dazzling me. Never i've seen somebody writing such as these remarkable and poeticly quality, since shakespeare.

So i'm convinced your able to explain yourself in grace.

Your amazed fan,
Gyzzzmo

thanks, i'm learning by reading posts :)

Offline twelfthroot2

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Re: Analysis of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 #1 in C
«Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 03:49:57 PM »
Replying to a 10 year old thread, does anyone have the complete harmonic progression for Op 10 no 1?

Thanks
TR2