Fiddly finger syndrome...

[perfect_pitch]

Okay... Maybe not a term recognised by any institution, but I wanted to ask if there are any other pianists out there who suffer from this.

I've always had a problem with accidently striking wrong keys here and there (like we all do), but recently it seems to be getting worse. Given my perfect pitch, I know the music inside-out and back-to-front, so I know it's not an aural or possibly mental problem.

I am trying to do all of the 36 Hanon exercises for finger dexterity in all 12 Major keys, blindfolded to try and gain better keyboard geography without looking at the keys. I've done the first 4 so far (trying to do 1 a day while on Summer holidays), and I've come to number 5 and I'll have no problem in terms of relaxing the fingers and playing, but every now and then I'll be playing the pattern and one of my fingers just plays a stray key???

I don't understand it. It's as if my fingers have a mind of their own. I know it's not fatigue because there is NO pain in my fingers; heck, there's no tension either. I just don't know what's happening?

I'm hoping that there are others who know what I'm talking about.

[avanchnzel]

Hello, fellow person with perfect pitch here.

Would you say you learn new music very quickly? As someone with perfect pitch, I do, and I've had 'fiddly finger syndrome' as you call it. I haven't been able to figure out the exact issue but I think it's something to do with learning the notes too quickly. You may know it in heart and mind but your fingers do not.

The only solution I can offer for that is slow practice. You'll be surprised by how many mistakes crop up that way. Watch your hands and focus on the mechanics of playing, eliminate issues and so on with even slower practice.

[perfect_pitch]

Hello avanchnzel...

I can memorise the notes incredibly quickly, yes and I can mentally sight-read and aurally hear music, faster than my fingers can play the notes.

The problem is, I'm trying to do Hanon No. 5, and I was trying to get the descending pattern (CD CE DF EG, BC BD BE, BF, A... etc), a simple 8 note pattern and yet EVERY SINGLE TIME I have tried to play it, I have buggered it up somehow. A finger goes astray when I'm descending. I know what the notes are mentally, and aurally... but how do you get your fingers to play correctly, if it's already correct in your mind??? The mind controls the fingers... I have it in my mind no problem...

[natanica]

I suffer from the same. I'm with avanchnzel, you have to practice slowly. I don't like to, it feels like my hair is getting grey by the mere thought of it, but I feel it's the only thing that works. I also try to "mix up" the rythm, I can't explain it in plain english as that's not my language, but this video suggests more or less what I mean, see from 3'30.

 

[scientificpianopractise]

In my view, you should spend as little time as possible on "practice pieces" and as much time as possible on music pieces.  After all, what do you want your musical brain to consist of?  Hanon or Beethoven?  Try Hanon Pro instead, limiting yourself to one minute of practice pieces a day.

Doing the Hanon in all the keys may be a cause the fiddly finger problem: if you practice too many note combinations, the "good" combinations may be no more important to your brain than the Hanon combinations.

Sherlock Holmes stated:

"Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones."

[perfect_pitch]

Try Hanon Pro instead, limiting yourself to one minute of practice pieces a day.

NO!!!

Ignoring your deliberate piece of spam... which you've gone on numerous times about, I doubt that doing Hanon in all keys is the cause of the fiddly finger problem. I believe that in doing the exercises in all 12 Major keys, I'll not only gain and improve concentration on playing in a variety of different black/white note combinations and gain dexterity and maneouvering throughout the different keys, but also try and match what I have mastered mentally (the notes in my head) and the notes I need to play in my fingers.

I'm only doing this for the month of January anyway, I'm not going to spend 6 months on this, for goodness sake. That's my little experiment anyway...

[anamnesis]

The problem is a mistiming from the habit of having the fingers find the keys before the arm is aligned and balanced behind the intended key. If you are already "there", how can you miss?    

The fingers should never directly control any aspect of the horizontal dimension of playing.

You'd be surprised how much more technical facility can be achieved when you completely weed out this habit in all textures.  

[perfect_pitch]

The problem is a mistiming from the habit of having the fingers find the keys before the arm is aligned and balanced behind the intended key. If you are already "there", how can you miss?   

Definitely an interesting point... What happens if you're say doing it in C Major, and the fingers are already sitting on the keys (it's all white notes), and you happen to hit a wrong note. I'm not sure in that case it's the finger not finding the key in time...

I mean, I was doing No. 5 of the Hanon, and I'd have no problem ascending, but descending - I'd get a number of them right, and then the fingers just seem to break out of the pattern and hit something random. I'm not trying to get my fingers to directly control my playing, I'm attempting to train myself to play what my brain is trying to control. Stop the mis-match between brain and fingers.

As I said, I know the notes mentally, and aurally...

[outin]

I have noticed something like that lately... Involuntary movements that come out of nowhere. I used to be quite tense when I played. When I got more relaxed these started to bother me with familiar material. Maybe it has something to do with an overactive nervous system or it's way of releasing stress. I need to concentrate not so much on what to play but avoid not doing things  that don't belong there. It's not only fingers though, sometimes the whole hand decides to jump somewhere on it's own... Of course I cannot be sure if it's age/health related or something that is "normal" for me because I didn't play when younger.

[perfect_pitch]

Another user had mentioned this in a PM, and in my first decade of learning - I was INCREDIBLY tense and had very poor finger technique (flat fingers). It wasn't till the age of 25-ish, that I really began to try and practice more carefully and articulate the notes.

I do believe that yes, stress can magnify it and I myself have begun to feel nervous at times when performing (which NEVER used to happen). I'd be a nervous wreck before I started playing, but the second those fingers hit the keys, the nerves just melted away.

Sometimes if I feel that hands jump to an irregular place, I wonder if that's more just muscle memory. Having to jump to chords is a different technique than playing the notes already directly under your fingers, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I think there might be some merit to this 'syndrome'. Would be interesting to see if others have any more insight into it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Are the errors you are making random or do they happen in similar places all the time? If they are random that is more problematic because if they happen in specific places you can focus on solidify the specific position. Do you have this problem with easier music? At what level does it become a problem I guess would be good to investigate. Sometimes just stop playing technical acrobatics and go back to the basics is a good idea.

[perfect_pitch]

They do genuinely seem to be random errors. It's not a particular finger, it's not a particular note.

Hanon 1 - 4 in all keys was easy. Yes, every now and then I'd either miss the F# when I was playing it in G Major, or not stretch a finger slightly far enough in F# Major, and that can happen.

However, in No. 5, I just could not get myself to play the piece in C Major for HOURS!!! Every time I tried to play it, I would either lose concentration of the pattern, or somehow I'd snap out of the pattern and hit a completely random note.

Yes, it does sometimes happen with easier music. I was playing the Australian National Anthem once in B flat Major, and kept hitting E natural for some reason. I could aurally hear Eb (literally) in my head but I'd play E natural instead.

The reason I like technical acrobatics is because it really mandates that you focus VERY carefull on the intricacies of the pattern. I feel, if I can accomplish that, then anything else will hopefully be much easier.

[anamnesis]

Definitely an interesting point... What happens if you're say doing it in C Major, and the fingers are already sitting on the keys (it's all white notes), and you happen to hit a wrong note. I'm not sure in that case it's the finger not finding the key in time...

I mean, I was doing No. 5 of the Hanon, and I'd have no problem ascending, but descending - I'd get a number of them right, and then the fingers just seem to break out of the pattern and hit something random. I'm not trying to get my fingers to directly control my playing, I'm attempting to train myself to play what my brain is trying to control. Stop the mis-match between brain and fingers.

As I said, I know the notes mentally, and aurally...

It doesn't matter.  In fact, contrary to popular belief, trying to maintain a "position" like that actually makes you less accurate because you won't necessarily be balanced perfectly on each key.

Hanon 5 Descending all involves single rotations. 

For the right hand, you rotate to the left in such away that when articulating the thumb on C that it propels you to be balanced on top of the D.  (When practicing, don't just immediately articulate the D. There's certain timing issues that involve clearly distinguishing between these steps.)  Then you rotate to the right on D in such a way that it propels you in the opposite direction to be balanced on the thumb on C again. (Again, don't immediately articulate the C.)  And so forth.

[And strictly speaking even before you start, before the first note, you rotate in the opposite direction to prepare for it, much like the "suspending" sensation of conductor starting on an up beat.]

Addition to the rotations, there are also movements and balances points from the forearm that account for different finger lengths and the in-and-out dimension of the keyboard.  For example, You will be balanced more forward to account for the short thumb, but then on 2 you move out to account for the longer second finger. When you have black keys, these in and out movements also need to be figured out to account for them.  When practicing these in-and-out motions, you need to give precise mental direction son exactly where on the key you want to it.  It is never enough to simply think "I'm hitting the C key with the thumb." Deliberate practice involves giving precise directions particular when it involves both timing and spatial directions.  Again, just thinking hit the C key with the thumb is only proving about 5% of the information you need for a reliable performance. 

When you properly account for all this, and truly feel aligned behind each finger, you should feel like you are "slotting" in the perfect spot. You feel perfectly stable, but also propelled forward. 

See here for some imagery that might help:

https://www.pointofsound.com/twelve_metaphors/springboardf.html

[lostinidlewonder]

They do genuinely seem to be random errors. It's not a particular finger, it's not a particular note.

Perhaps then it is dependent on the speed at which you play notes, there must be a reasoning towards why it is happening if it feels truly random I think removing somewhat that random aspect would help find a solution.

Hanon 1 - 4 in all keys was easy. ....
However, in No. 5, I just could not get myself to play the piece in C Major for HOURS!!!

IMHO I dont think hanon is going to be a good indicator for you at your level, for your level it seems almost like a security blanket rather than something that will really help you?

Yes, it does sometimes happen with easier music. I was playing the Australian National Anthem once in B flat Major, and kept hitting E natural for some reason. I could aurally hear Eb (literally) in my head but I'd play E natural instead.

At least this problem is less random, I feel "easier" music will help you understand the seemingly random error in the fingerings.

The reason I like technical acrobatics is because it really mandates that you focus VERY carefull on the intricacies of the pattern. I feel, if I can accomplish that, then anything else will hopefully be much easier.

The only reason why to avoid "difficult" technical acrobatics for a while I thought would be to remove the challenge for your hands. If you find errors creeping in technical monsters it is difficult to work out whether it is the technical movement or this randomness that creeps in. With simple pieces if there is error it may be much easier to pinpoint exactly what is happening to you. There must be super easy music you absolutely cannot make errors with, I would investigate at what point do these errors creep in.

Happy New year to you mate

[perfect_pitch]

When you properly account for all this, and truly feel aligned behind each finger, you should feel like you are "slotting" in the perfect spot. You feel perfectly stable, but also propelled forward.  

See here for some imagery that might help:

https://www.pointofsound.com/twelve_metaphors/springboardf.html

Maybe I've never really mastered that then... I'll admit, I've never really heard of the Taubman technique (here in Perth, Australia) I think there are very few teachers who know it. As I said, up until almost my mid-twenties, I was playing (and brought up being taught) with the thought of simply getting my fingers on right keys, instead of analysing what my body is doing to get me to those keys and how they are struck/played etc... I'll go through that web-site later today.

IMHO I dont think hanon is going to be a good indicator for you at your level, for your level it seems almost like a security blanket rather than something that will really help you?

I don't know... I've never done the Hanon before, so I'm not trying to find a security blanket... I want something new to work out and correct.

The only reason why to avoid "difficult" technical acrobatics for a while I thought would be to remove the challenge for your hands. If you find errors creeping in technical monsters it is difficult to work out whether it is the technical movement or this randomness that creeps in. With simple pieces if there is error it may be much easier to pinpoint exactly what is happening to you. There must be super easy music you absolutely cannot make errors with, I would investigate at what point do these errors creep in.

Yes, there are easy pieces I can play without this happening. Perhaps they're so mentally and aurally memorised that I can literally work out the notes from my head, and not the music. I don't know...

The thing is, I want a challenge, and in trying to beat that challenge - I want to try and discover the problem. Yes, it might also happen in technical monsters, but if I can't play and control my fingers with simple patterns like the Hanon, then surely the technical monsters will make it almost impossible to pinpoint why this happens? It may be easier with repeating patterns to try and discover a pattern or reason as to why it happens?

I don't know... I thought I'd give it a try for January. Hopefully, this can be nothing but good for my fingers and help me discover something about my playing.

Happy New year to you mate

Happy new year to you too Lost...

[macuaig]

This was a nice intro:

Choreography of the Hands: The Work of Dorothy Taubman
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=47w_6IKHA1M

[dcstudio]

Hey there...old friend.  

I think you should try jazz. Spend some time playing in a realm where we make no mistakes.  You are focusing so intently on not making mistakes that you are likely losing accuracy rather than gaining it.  

Now...will this make your classical chops better? Hard to say...but I guarantee it will take a a lot of the pressure off you when you do make those little errors.

In other words you may still screw up.

You just won't care as much.

To be clear I like what you are doing with the hanon..
That is the kind of thing that makes monster chops.

[perfect_pitch]

Hey DC...

Sadly enough, I had been approached about Jazz at University, and it was never to my liking. In fact, sadly enough, I'm sort of going of Classical as well, but I'm trying to get into my arrangements now.

Unfortunately, the personality I have is that I hate making mistakes. I feel embarrassed about making them and no amount of screwing up will make me accept making mistakes...

I've been a bit of a perfectionist all my life... but never managed to get my piano music perfect (for the most part of my upbringing).

[dcstudio]

I was also embarrassed...and it caused me to screw up more because I put this enormous pressure on myself each time I played in front of someone...actually I screwed up plenty when I was alone, too. What you are doing with the hanon will help.  At some point after university you go through this in-depth reevaluation of your skills and that's when everything comes together. I have done it several times in my life. It always involves "going back to basics" in one form or another and an obsession for practice.  It's kind of like upgrading your operating system in a manner of speaking I think. 

Improvisation in any form will help if jazz is not your thing.  IMO of course.

[perfect_pitch]

It's kind of like upgrading your operating system in a manner of speaking I think. 

Mmmm... I do like upgrading my computer... I just wish this had happened a long time ago.

[pianoplunker]

Okay... Maybe not a term recognised by any institution, but I wanted to ask if there are any other pianists out there who suffer from this.

I've always had a problem with accidently striking wrong keys here and there (like we all do), but recently it seems to be getting worse. Given my perfect pitch, I know the music inside-out and back-to-front, so I know it's not an aural or possibly mental problem.

I am trying to do all of the 36 Hanon exercises for finger dexterity in all 12 Major keys, blindfolded to try and gain better keyboard geography without looking at the keys. I've done the first 4 so far (trying to do 1 a day while on Summer holidays), and I've come to number 5 and I'll have no problem in terms of relaxing the fingers and playing, but every now and then I'll be playing the pattern and one of my fingers just plays a stray key???

I don't understand it. It's as if my fingers have a mind of their own. I know it's not fatigue because there is NO pain in my fingers; heck, there's no tension either. I just don't know what's happening?

I'm hoping that there are others who know what I'm talking about.

It is called "Screwing up at the piano"  not "fiddly fingers".  Please.

[perfect_pitch]

It is called "Screwing up at the piano"  not "fiddly fingers".  Please.

Actually, I've had a number of people message me privately, who believe this exists, so it seems a little narrow-minded to just dismiss it in the way you did.

[dcstudio]

Mmmm... I do like upgrading my computer... I just wish this had happened a long time ago.

It's happened to me about every 10 to 15 years.  I don't know what triggers it.  All I know is that suddenly I am overwhelmed with a desire to "fix" things about my playing.  I practice endlessly and I tend towards repetitive exercises or obsessing over a piece or two.  It lasts for months.  I never get tired of practicing and I can put in 12 hours no problem. 

What I can tell you is that each time this happens I make a giant leap forward--not just in my chops but in my overall understanding of music.  It's an epiphany of sorts.  My confidence skyrockets and I become an even more fearless player.

This is a good thing pitch... just wait and see.

[louispodesta]

Okay... Maybe not a term recognised by any institution, but I wanted to ask if there are any other pianists out there who suffer from this.

I've always had a problem with accidently striking wrong keys here and there (like we all do), but recently it seems to be getting worse. Given my perfect pitch, I know the music inside-out and back-to-front, so I know it's not an aural or possibly mental problem.

I am trying to do all of the 36 Hanon exercises for finger dexterity in all 12 Major keys, blindfolded to try and gain better keyboard geography without looking at the keys. I've done the first 4 so far (trying to do 1 a day while on Summer holidays), and I've come to number 5 and I'll have no problem in terms of relaxing the fingers and playing, but every now and then I'll be playing the pattern and one of my fingers just plays a stray key???

I don't understand it. It's as if my fingers have a mind of their own. I know it's not fatigue because there is NO pain in my fingers; heck, there's no tension either. I just don't know what's happening?

I'm hoping that there are others who know what I'm talking about.

1)  In my opinion, you have Focal Dystonia in your right hand.  And, if so, it makes no difference how you attained this condition.  I have it in my left hand, from a surgery.

2)  You can think it to death, or you can employ a five finger exercise that my late teacher, Robert Weaver, taught all of his beginning students.

3)  Whatever you do, take your Hanon Exercises and throw them in the trash.  Why?  Because you have no muscles in your fingers.  Just find a local Doctor, have them pull out their Anatomy textbook and show you.

4)  Speaking from decades of personal experience, you cannot develop muscles you do not have.  However, the associate ligaments, tendons and bones can be strengthened (but not by some stupid exercise!).

4)  Finally, I post (for free, as always) my teacher's simple five finger exercise, which is based on the Tobias Matthay concept of "strike and quick release:

["With all due respect to those who have posted, I have noticed that there is no specific mention regarding any method of "key attack." This references how one/pianist strikes a particular key or a set of keys.

1)  I was taught, by my late teacher Robert Weaver, that one should (without stress) normally arrange their hands, with fingers "resting" on the keys, in a standard five finger position, at "Middle C" (and a corresponding octave below in the left hand).

2)  That also  means you are sitting erect (with head high), not stiff, but relaxed at the keyboard, with a full but relaxed arm weight.

3)  Then, practice playing (super slow!) 1-5 in a very soft staccato fashion with little or no movement in either hand (super still!).  Remember, as the late concert pianist Earl Wild was taught by Egon Petri, always strike from the surface of the key.

4)  After one has mastered this, the same modality should be effectuated with broken chords and dominant seventh and diminished arpeggios, accordingly."

5.  Using the Taubman/Golandsky technique, transfer the weight from finger to finger as you play the chord, allowing the rest of the hand to collapse.  This is called the "walking hand."  Whatever you do, do not play with a flexed outstretched hand, as every pianist in the world has been taught."]

Good luck to you, and yes you may contact me by PM.

[dogperson]

1)  In my opinion, you have Focal Dystonia in your right hand.  And, if so, it makes no difference how you attained this condition.  I have it in my left hand, from a surgery.

2)  You can think it to death, or you can employ a five finger exercise that my late teacher, Robert Weaver, taught all of his beginning students.

3)  Whatever you do, take your Hanon Exercises and throw them in the trash.  Why?  Because you have no muscles in your fingers.  Just find a local Doctor, have them pull out their Anatomy textbook and show you.

4)  Speaking from decades of personal experience, you cannot develop muscles you do not have.  However, the associate ligaments, tendons and bones can be strengthened (but not by some stupid exercise!).

4)  Finally, I post (for free, as always) my teacher's simple five finger exercise, which is based on the Tobias Matthay concept of "strike and quick release:

["With all due respect to those who have posted, I have noticed that there is no specific mention regarding any method of "key attack." This references how one/pianist strikes a particular key or a set of keys.

1)  I was taught, by my late teacher Robert Weaver, that one should (without stress) normally arrange their hands, with fingers "resting" on the keys, in a standard five finger position, at "Middle C" (and a corresponding octave below in the left hand).

2)  That also  means you are sitting erect (with head high), not stiff, but relaxed at the keyboard, with a full but relaxed arm weight.

3)  Then, practice playing (super slow!) 1-5 in a very soft staccato fashion with little or no movement in either hand (super still!).  Remember, as the late concert pianist Earl Wild was taught by Egon Petri, always strike from the surface of the key.

4)  After one has mastered this, the same modality should be effectuated with broken chords and dominant seventh and diminished arpeggios, accordingly."

5.  Using the Taubman/Golandsky technique, transfer the weight from finger to finger as you play the chord, allowing the rest of the hand to collapse.  This is called the "walking hand."  Whatever you do, do not play with a flexed outstretched hand, as every pianist in the world has been taught."]

Good luck to you, and yes you may contact me by PM.

REALLY, LOUIS--- you are not a physician and do not have the qualifications to diagnosis focal dystonia from a brief statement made on the internet...  nor advise treatment.  You have accused others on this forum of playing psychiatrist.  Please do not presume to play doctor.   And no one should be contacting you by PM for your 'medical advice'.   

[perfect_pitch]

1)  In my opinion, you have Focal Dystonia in your right hand.  And, if so, it makes no difference how you attained this condition.  I have it in my left hand, from a surgery.

I must say, I also hate labels being put on things... and Dogperson is right, you can't just assume that someone has a 'syndrome' or 'condition' from a post.

I also hate labels, because I believe this is something that can be controlled with patience and dilligence.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes, there are easy pieces I can play without this happening. Perhaps they're so mentally and aurally memorised that I can literally work out the notes from my head, and not the music. I don't know...

This seem interesting you really need to understand why these pieces you know very very well are without error and what is missing from the other pieces. Of course it would be depressing to think that you need to play a piece for years and years before it comes into this state. If these pieces are free of random errors then the control you feel from these pieces need to be extended to others that you wish also to be error free. That is the payoff sometimes I guess, some pieces really do need years before you can play them with little chance of mistake (especially if you are playing technical beasts that push your skills)

I do a ton of sight reading work every day and do find sometimes I have real bad days or periods in the day where my reading is off and my theory sense of "filling in the gaps" wanes. I will generally go to something easier so I am less stressed out. I think doing easier works is not something that turn your nose up at, it is important to not always work under high stress. Surely these random errors must frustrate the hell out of you and that might be a vicious circle in itself making you more stressed out and more prone to error.

[dcstudio]

This seem interesting you really need to understand why these pieces you know very very well are without error

Agreed.

Pitch...I don't think you have a syndrome...you are just in a period of reevaluation.  Your story sounds very familiar....if you start believing this to be a physical issue your brain may start believing it cannot be fixed without an MD. If you have pain, tingling, numbness, that's when you see the Doc
But you know that...lol

[perfect_pitch]

This seem interesting you really need to understand why these pieces you know very very well are without error and what is missing from the other pieces.

I think there are pieces (simple ones) that we've all practiced to death, but practiced so much that over the years, there comes a point where you almost play it without thinking of it consciously, or even unconsciously - it becomes so automatic that you almost 'switch off'. Not sure if that's necessarily a good thing.

I do a ton of sight reading work every day and do find sometimes I have real bad days or periods in the day where my reading is off and my theory sense of "filling in the gaps" wanes.

I used to do tons of sight-reading, but I've been distracted with my arrangements. I should really get back into it.

Pitch...I don't think you have a syndrome...you are just in a period of reevaluation.  Your story sounds very familiar....if you start believing this to be a physical issue your brain may start believing it cannot be fixed without an MD.

True... Interesting question... have you ever had a point in time where you're doing a repeated exercise and at first it might not be right, and you hone in on the finger or notes that are correct, and you fixate on what needs to be corrected... but your brain literally doesnt do it?

I had a point in the Hanon where I kept thinking, finger 3, finger 3, finger 3... and it's like that thought was severed from the control I had over my fingers... I just pressed finger 4??? Mistakes where you are so sure of how to fix it and yet your brain seems incapable (even for just a minute or two) of getting the correct message to your fingers.

If you have pain, tingling, numbness, that's when you see the Doc... But you know that...

Never had ANY of that... ever.