Voicing with the fourth finger

[hovva]

Hi everyone. This is my first post on an account made solely for this question: why can't I voice with my fourth finger? Specifically in the agitato section of Rachmaninoff's prelude in C# minor. My fourth finger feels too weak and my third finger feels too strong in the section in the blue box. It sounds as if I'm voicing a minor third as opposed to a D#. Also, the I tend to play the lower note first as if its a grace note or something. This isn't just in this piece either. My fourth finger is infamous for this problem. Most recently I remember it being a problem in a single phrase of Liszt's Liebestraum No.3. Please help thanks.

[brogers70]

I have no idea if this will help. I find that for almost any problem it helps to try to break it down to the simplest possible case. So for fourth finger voicing I would simply try to play an interval with the second and fourth fingers and make the note played by the fourth finger sound louder. I'd do that as slowly and gently as it took to make it work reliably. Then I'd do scales in thirds fingered 13/24/13/24, trying to voice the upper line in fingers 3 and 4. Again doing it all very slowly and gently. I'd stay away from trying to do it in a complex piece at first and just make sure I could voice a simple interval comfortably. And then gradually work up to incorporating that voicing into a real piece.

[piulento]

+1 for brogers comment. The main thing you need to do is to break this whole thing down.
A weak 4th is a pretty common problem. There aren't too many solutions other than exercises, careful listening and plenty of practice.

[hovva]

True. When in doubt slow down. It's a particular problem in this section due to the outstretch of the thumb and the fact that that the voice is on a white key (I always find voicing easier on the black keys due to the elevation). I guess it just needs more work. I just wish there were tiny dumbbells four my fourth because it feels like its weakness is holding back the rest of my fingers. Thanks for the help

[anamnesis]

Without looking at your playing, the most likely issue is simply that you aren't adjusting your forearm to account for the different finger lengths. 

Finger 4 is going to shorter than finger 3; therefore, to even out the playing on the same level (all whites or all blacks), there's a distinct sensation from the forearm of going in toward the fallboard in the action from 3 to 4 to make up for the shorter finger length.  You do the opposite by going out away from the fallboard when going from 4 to 3 to make up for 3 being longer. 

When going from white to black keys, you can distinctly plan how you use these in and out motions to smooth out the motion so that there are no sudden jerks.  These motions are also not really large, just enough to accomplish what you need at speed. They can be as small as "visibly staying in the same spot" but shifting the balance back or forth on different parts of the finger tip. 

The fourth finger will seem to be weak if you do not make these adjustments and are not used to the sensation of being aligned behind each finger at all times.

[louispodesta]

Hi everyone. This is my first post on an account made solely for this question: why can't I voice with my fourth finger? Specifically in the agitato section of Rachmaninoff's prelude in C# minor. My fourth finger feels too weak and my third finger feels too strong in the section in the blue box. It sounds as if I'm voicing a minor third as opposed to a D#. Also, the I tend to play the lower note first as if its a grace note or something. This isn't just in this piece either. My fourth finger is infamous for this problem. Most recently I remember it being a problem in a single phrase of Liszt's Liebestraum No.3. Please help thanks.

1)  I am a firm believer in the Claude Debussy philosophy of using whatever fingering suits the morphology of a particular pianist's hand.

2)  That said, I have a small hand with spindly fingers.

3)  Fortunately, the first score that I purchased for this piece was published by Carl Fischer.

4)  Specifically, in measure #1 of the "Agitato" section, the first beat of the triplet uses the fifth finger.  I use the fourth finger.  And, in the second beat , I do the same.

5)  However, as suggested in the Fischer Score, I use the fifth finger, and then switch back to the fourth finger for beat four.  All of this is to properly align the hand for the next broken chord.

6)  Most importantly, utilize the same philosophy/methodology for the rest of the section.  That is:  whatever works best for you, given that the goal is to have your hand and your fingers "directly" over the keys.

It works!

[vaniii]

Any new technique should not be learned in the piece of music it is needed for.  Doing so will invite weakness into the final performance.

As strange as this may sound, you need to work on voicing separately from the context it is needed.

I advise - particularly for this section of this prelude - playing chord progressions in C-sharp minor aiming to voice the topmost notes.  Playing a chromatic scale using fingers 3,4 and 5 will suffice, realizing the harmony using only chords I and V.

The point is you don't want to be actively thinking about minutia when you should be thinking about the music as a whole.  It would be like, while driving a car,  approaching an intersection, needing to simply stop the car, and, at that precise moment choosing to orient yourself with the intricacies of the shift stick; surely, this should have been done, before, while the vehicle is stationary ... preferably before one started their journey.

Play chromatic scales, with your right hand using fingers 3, 4, and 5, then play the diatonic chords I and V as realized harmony with the remaining fingers (Think Chopin Op 10 , No 2).  All this slowly, making voicing your aim, not speed.

---

PS EDT:

As though almost linked by key but tenuously mood, there is a particular section of Beethoven Op 27 No 2, M 1 (13 Bars from the end), which uses a similar triplet figure although, Beethoven intended the entire opposite of Rachmaninoff.  I am sure, you might have even played  it (Beethoven's), like this (Rachmaninoff's), accidentally; many professional recordings have done so despite the music stating otherwise.

Work on the separate component, before applying it to the whole.

[pianoplayer002]

1)  I am a firm believer in the Claude Debussy philosophy of using whatever fingering suits the morphology of a particular pianist's hand.

2)  That said, I have a small hand with spindly fingers.

3)  Fortunately, the first score that I purchased for this piece was published by Carl Fischer.

4)  Specifically, in measure #1 of the "Agitato" section, the first beat of the triplet uses the fifth finger.  I use the fourth finger.  And, in the second beat , I do the same.

5)  However, as suggested in the Fischer Score, I use the fifth finger, and then switch back to the fourth finger for beat four.  All of this is to properly align the hand for the next broken chord.

6)  Most importantly, utilize the same philosophy/methodology for the rest of the section.  That is:  whatever works best for you, given that the goal is to have your hand and your fingers "directly" over the keys.

It works!

I use 5-4-5-4 on the quarter notes in that measure. It's perfectly doable without strain if you learn to keep your hand and arm supple throughout. 4-4-5-4 robs you of a perfect legato.

[indianajo]

I just wish there were tiny dumbbells four my fourth because it feels like its weakness is holding back the rest of my fingers.

Actually, 4 or 5 weakness is a common problem IMHO for people that are trying to run before they can walk.  
IE, start with Schmitt exercises, which can be downloaded from piano street.  
Mindnumbingly boring, most teachers won't make you do this.  Now you are seeing why you should have.  
Total evenness of all fingers is a first goal.  Then other repetitions where you emphasize each finger in turn.  You should be able to artistically decide which finger is going to be loudest.  You should be able to pick out melodies on the top, which is unnatural because 4,5 are the weakest fingers.  You should be also be able to emphasize an inner voice if you find that artistic.    
As always, wrists straight, back straight, neck straight, fingers curved down from hand,  forearms drooping down slightly from the elbows. Getting the posture right is step 0, before starting to even play.  If you have to sit on a book, find one and do so.  If you have to put the piano on wood blocks, find some and do so.  
Better than dumbbells, my physical therapist gave me a rubber ball to squeeze when I tore the tendons in my shoulder last year.  Rather special, it was more resistant than a tennis ball and less resistant than a handball.  Look for one at PT supplies. Mine came free with the sling my arm was immobilized in.  
Of course put the major strain on fingers 4 & 5.  And when it starts to hurt, quit and come back and try again in a couple of days.  Giving 110% is for crippled ex football players.  
Another exercise for finger 5, buy an old manual typewriter where the fifth finger has to lift the platten for capital letters.  Type out text with a lot of CAPITAL letters.  Much easier to store in the closet than a stiffer force practice piano.  
Now that I've achieved right hand 4,5 dominance, I maintain it by playing Scott Joplin rags, four or five times a week.  I'm left handed, so stressing the right hand melody provides sufficient stress to keep those fingers dominant.  These are much more fun than Schmitt or Edna Mae Berman either one. 

[pianoplayer002]

Total evenness of all fingers is a first goal.  Then other repetitions where you emphasize each finger in turn.  You should be able to artistically decide which finger is going to be loudest.  You should be able to pick out melodies on the top, which is unnatural because 4,5 are the weakest fingers.  You should be also be able to emphasize an inner voice if you find that artistic.    

I find that a good standard to have is to, in both left and right hand, be able to play repeated clusters of C - D - E - F - G while clearly bringing out Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" from the clusters (and without dropping any of the other notes in the cluster - all keys should still go firmly to the keybed)

[hovva]

Better than dumbbells, my physical therapist gave me a rubber ball to squeeze when I tore the tendons in my shoulder last year.  Rather special, it was more resistant than a tennis ball and less resistant than a handball.  Look for one at PT supplies. Mine came free with the sling my arm was immobilized in.  
Of course put the major strain on fingers 4 & 5.  And when it starts to hurt, quit and come back and try again in a couple of days.  Giving 110% is for crippled ex football players.  
Another exercise for finger 5, buy an old manual typewriter where the fifth finger has to lift the platten for capital letters.  Type out text with a lot of CAPITAL letters.  Much easier to store in the closet than a stiffer force practice piano.  

Thanks for the help. That's interesting about the stress ball, I'll have to give that a go. Unfortunately, I don't have a typewriter laying around though so I'll leave that until I stumble into one .