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Topic: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa? (Read 11647 times)

pianoville

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Posts: 203

What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

on: January 01, 2017, 01:52:12 PM

I recently got a new book with all transcendental etudes by Liszt and I have sight readed some of them. They were very hard but Mazeppa, the one that is supposed to be the most difficult didn't give me any problems at all sight reading (except for the scales in the beginning). Why does everybody think it is so difficult? I found it to be one of the easiest. (I even used the correct fingering)

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piulento

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Posts: 224

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #1 on: January 01, 2017, 07:04:26 PM

Everybody has different difficulties. I think one of this particualr etude's main difficulties is stamina. Sight reading it is one thing, but playing it is a whole new challenge. I admit that I never went near that particualr demon, but I'm guessing it can really leave your body aching (I remember how I once tried studying the 'Eroica' etude but quit after just a week because the octave section was simply too tiring, can't imagine how this one might feel).
But I personally think that Feux Follets might be harder. In Mazeppa you can pretty much go crazy on the piano and nobody would bat an eye, but in FF you have to deal with this enormous technical challenge, but at the same time keeping it really light, like it's the easiest piece you've ever played. That's what so many pianists fail to do.
If you think Mazeppa might be easier for you - go for it! But you might change your mind after a while

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pianoville

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Posts: 203

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #2 on: January 01, 2017, 08:33:23 PM

Quote from: piulento on January 01, 2017, 07:04:26 PM

Everybody has different difficulties. I think one of this particualr etude's main difficulties is stamina. Sight reading it is one thing, but playing it is a whole new challenge. I admit that I never went near that particualr demon, but I'm guessing it can really leave your body aching (I remember how I once tried studying the 'Eroica' etude but quit after just a week because the octave section was simply too tiring, can't imagine how this one might feel).
But I personally think that Feux Follets might be harder. In Mazeppa you can pretty much go crazy on the piano and nobody would bat an eye, but in FF you have to deal with this enormous technical challenge, but at the same time keeping it really light, like it's the easiest piece you've ever played. That's what so many pianists fail to do.
If you think Mazeppa might be easier for you - go for it! But you might change your mind after a while

Thank you for the response! You might be right actually. Would probably be a pretty stupid mistake to go for Mazeppa when I really can't play anything more difficult than la valse!

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pianoplayer002

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Posts: 157

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #3 on: January 01, 2017, 09:41:08 PM

Quote from: piulento on January 01, 2017, 07:04:26 PM

I admit that I never went near that particualr demon, but I'm guessing it can really leave your body aching (I remember how I once tried studying the 'Eroica' etude but quit after just a week because the octave section was simply too tiring, can't imagine how this one might feel).

It can, but it shouldn't. Playing these etudes is all about doing it with the correct technique, and playing with the correct technique, even in big chord pieces like this one, never leaves your body aching. I know just saying this is not very helpful in terms of "how do I actually do that, then?" but I think it's an important start to at least be aware of that playing doesn't have to, and shouldn't be tiring. For example, playing all the Chopin etudes after one another is perfectly doable without aching at the end.

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richard black

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Posts: 2104

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #4 on: January 02, 2017, 11:27:41 AM

I've never heard it said that Mazeppa is the most difficult, but anyway it _is_ tricky - basically because the combination of quite long jumps and tricky figurations (right after the jumps) make it a finger synchronisation problem that most players find takes some time to work out. Plus long jumps always have their own element of risk, even if you're Dick Hyman.

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piulento

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Posts: 224

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #5 on: January 02, 2017, 05:27:42 PM

Quote from: pianoplayer002 on January 01, 2017, 09:41:08 PM

It can, but it shouldn't. Playing these etudes is all about doing it with the correct technique, and playing with the correct technique, even in big chord pieces like this one, never leaves your body aching.

Agree, but that's exactly the problem. One of this etude's purposes, I guess, is to test proper "stamina saving" playing. I'd stay away from this one unless you already know how to do this correctly (which is the big mistake I made in the past).

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devila03

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Posts: 1

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #6 on: January 02, 2017, 05:57:54 PM

Slightly off topic, but how do Liszt's Concertos 1 & 2 compare in difficulty to the Transcendental etudes (and this list in general https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=3568.0 , no pun intended)

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minhogang

Jr. Member
Posts: 42

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 08:41:07 AM

If this ones easier for you, great! I personally have found Eroica (rated 8/9 Henle) to be easy for me, while finding something like Bach's C minor toccata (rated 7) to be immensely difficult.

As the others have posted, stamina is a big part of playing this piece. It is also the reason why I am sometimes too lazy to practice Wilde Jagd.

Just wondering did you use the 4242 2424 4242 fingering?

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pianoville

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Posts: 203

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #8 on: January 03, 2017, 11:48:48 AM

@minhogang Yes I did use the 42 42 fingering, except for the third and fourth 'variation' where i did use 31 42. Are you supposed to use 42 all the way trough?

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minhogang

Jr. Member
Posts: 42

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 01:05:20 AM

Nope, you are doing it correctly. It is not humanly possible to play acciaccaturas that fast consistently anyway.

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pianoplayer002

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Posts: 157

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 03:44:55 AM

Quote from: piulento on January 02, 2017, 05:27:42 PM

Agree, but that's exactly the problem. One of this etude's purposes, I guess, is to test proper "stamina saving" playing. I'd stay away from this one unless you already know how to do this correctly (which is the big mistake I made in the past).

I think even using the wording "stamina saving" is starting from the wrong angle. "Saving" implies it's a resource you could run out of - in this case the "endurance" needed to be able to play it to the end before getting tired. Correct technique has nothing to do with "building up endurance" or "saving resources". It's not like when you train up your endurance before a long distance running competition, or planning when to spurt and when to take it easy in said competition. You just play and that's it. No getting tired, no need to grind passages until fatigue in order to "build stamina". When I even hear the word "stamina" being uttered in relation to piano playing I just think of students grinding Chopin op. 25 no. 12 over and over until unable to continue, hoping to "build" enough "stamina" to play the piece without getting tired. Correct technique gets rid of the problem of getting tired entirely.

Quote from: minhogang on January 03, 2017, 08:41:07 AM

As the others have posted, stamina is a big part of playing this piece. It is also the reason why I am sometimes too lazy to practice Wilde Jagd.

Stamina is not a big part of playing these pieces. Do you get tired when practising Wilde Jagd? Then it's not a problem of "lacking stamina", it's a problem of incorrect coordination. Practising Wilde Jagd will not be tiring for the arms with correct technique (and "correct technique" means "correctly coordinated technique", not "enough endurance trained technique"). See my response above.

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minhogang

Jr. Member
Posts: 42

Re: What is the difficulty with Mazeppa?

Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 06:59:25 AM

That is a good point. When I practice I am intensely focused and I move my body as if in a concert. So how do I actually practice, then? Start using more wrist/forearm motion? When I practice the opening of Wilde Jagd I use a lot of arm (not forearm) motion which is tiring. And for most of the piece as well.

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