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Topic: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?  (Read 2738 times)

Offline mishamalchik

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How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
on: January 27, 2017, 05:18:49 PM
So the area I'm having problems with is Measures 23-35 of Chopin Etude opus 10 no 1. I know my wrist should be relaxed, and that my fingers should be acting somewhat independently but since the range of my hand is quite stretched here, I'm finding it really difficult to be both relaxed and accurate. The more I relax my hand, the more "alternative" notes slip in there. The more I tense my hand, the less pleased I am with sound and even-ness, plus the more fatigue I feel in practice. Any advice for this section? Or on keeping your hand and wrist relaxed in general?
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Offline milchhpiano

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 05:52:33 PM
I've always heard that this is the hardest Chopin etude, and it's for the reasons you're starting to come across. Stretching, but keeping yourself relaxed, but also playing with strength and accuracy.

I am going to try and explain my general approach to the keyboard in text form, which might help you find a solution to your problem.

First, are you tensing up? Do you typically keep your wrist straight and play with a left-right motion, and are mostly using the muscle in your wrist and fingers to play? It isn't necessarily wrong, and this technique has been used for a long time.

My suggestion is to try and experiment with momentum, inertia, weight, whatever you want to call it.

Try this: At the piano, lid down (or at a table that's the same height you play comfortable at), let your right arm hang on your side. Relax it. Roll your shoulders to make sure you aren't tense. Pick your right arm up with your left hand, and drop your right arm on the lid in front of you. Your fingers will probably curve on their own. Now, with you hand relaxed, try to focus on your "arch" -- that is, your first knuckles which connect your fingers to your hand. Personally, this is my main source of power when it comes to my fingers. Moving on, now that your hand and arm is relaxed, you have your fingers bent, and you're thinking of your place of power is your arch, roll your hand side to side like a pizza cutter. Little by little, start to add motion going front to back (into the piano, away from the piano). Your hand will also, on its own, move up and down (try not to do this too much as it will lead to bad wrist positioning). You'll start making a circle. You'll notice that it's most comfortable in your right hand to to move counter-clockwise (and your left is clockwise). If you're having trouble keeping your arch while being relaxed, place a ping-pong ball in your palm and do this.

Now go to the piano and place a scale. When you go up, think of when your hand was moving to the right and away from the piano -- when you start going down, make a rotation and move your hand as if it was going left and into the piano. What you're doing here is a weight transfer (much like how drifters maneuver their car the way they do). Your energy isn't static anymore and you're able to play more relaxed while still keeping your strength and accuracy. Try to think of doing this literally every time you play a few notes going up, or like in your etude, grouping the notes fours and doing a rotation for each of those.

At first you'll want to make big motions with your wrist and mechanism, but eventually you will have to make them smaller and smaller. You'll end up playing with a series of several small rotations on a very minute level, which allows you to play large stretches of notes without actually having to stretch your hand more than an octave (or if that, once you really get this technique down).

This is a very fundamental approach to the piano, so unfortunately this isn't a quick fix method (but after all this is a forum... if we had the luxury of meeting in real life I could give advice to help you out right now!)

Let me know if you have any questions! :)
Recital/MM Audition Program
Bach Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue
Beethoven Op. 111
Liszt Dante
Rachmaninoff Op. 39/6
Kapustin Variations Op. 41

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 06:52:35 PM
If you have the sustain pedal down there's no need to stretch.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 12:00:07 AM
Don't try to explain technique in words it's so clumsy and severely difficult for anyone to understand. I played piano for 30+ years and teach it for over 20 and what you write here is confusing and absent of accurate enough defined terms.
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Offline mishamalchik

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #4 on: January 28, 2017, 12:20:47 AM
I think I understand what they're trying to say. Weight and flexibility should be natural, not forced or pushed in any way. I'll experiment a bit. I tend to tense up coming down, and coming up in the infamous measure where you have a an "A" to an "E flat" on 4-5. I tense up to hold my position and do a sort of cookie cutter approach where I move my fingers less and sort of place my hand over the notes quickly and rotate my wrist. My teacher tells me that I'm generally not necessarily tense, but not fluid enough in the wrist.
     I don't really feel any tension in my shoulders, and I only feel tension in my wrist when I play this piece, and weirdly enough, I occasionally feel tension in my jaw muscles when I play scales.... guess that speaks to how much I enjoy them lol

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #5 on: January 28, 2017, 01:54:56 AM
What i mean is that you can describe in words what you are doing but it makes real sense only to the person describing it because they can define the generalized terms they use in regards to their own hands where we as readers have to make guesses as to exactly what they are feeling in the hands.
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Offline dcstudio

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #6 on: January 28, 2017, 02:16:13 PM
What i mean is that you can describe in words what you are doing but it makes real sense only to the person describing it because they can define the generalized terms they use in regards to their own hands where we as readers have to make guesses as to exactly what they are feeling in the hands.

Wow...I am really impressed with how nicely you express this sentiment. I have had such trouble telling people this without sounding annoyed.  Thanks...this is beautiful.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #7 on: January 28, 2017, 04:42:39 PM
Ha thanks dcstudio.  I remember posting this when the forum was flooded by technique in words talk without musical context! https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=50174.0

This thread of course has some context so it's not at a total loss but still very confusing to attempt it with just words. If you can do it you literally can teach piano from start to find just by having students read about it. I'd say videos, diagrams, pictures all could help define everything but still in the end it's very difficult if you are not feeling it yourself. Imagine how difficult it is to feel new movements you had little/no experience with and try to learn about it in words, do you know if what you feel is right or not? Piano is also a tricky instrument because you can get away with not so good technique and still produce a good sound.

There are ways to explain the learning process of a piece in words, you can describe a lot of challenges you may contend with in the fingering and strategies in approaching them, patterns you can observe, reductions in score which help learn etc etc however as soon as you start to explain the exact motions in words you are going to get trapped with the vagueness. Also when describing pieces in this way you must describe it in different ways, since a beginner would not understand you if you explained it all like a theisis ;)
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #8 on: January 28, 2017, 06:08:50 PM
Ha thanks dcstudio.  I remember posting this when the forum was flooded by technique in words talk without musical context! https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=50174.0
Why on earth would you resurrect that load of old bull??
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Offline milchhpiano

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 12:13:26 AM
There are ways to explain the learning process of a piece in words, you can describe a lot of challenges you may contend with in the fingering and strategies in approaching them, patterns you can observe, reductions in score which help learn etc etc however as soon as you start to explain the exact motions in words you are going to get trapped with the vagueness. Also when describing pieces in this way you must describe it in different ways, since a beginner would not understand you if you explained it all like a theisis ;)

The fact that OP was able to understand what I was getting at and enabed them to think of their technique in a small way is enough proof for me that what I wrote was useful. Words can be vague, however we're all here to help each other. That's why I said to ask questions anyway. You, as a teacher of 20 years, should understand that there is not one way to explain technique to somebody, even in person. Heck, some teachers with more experience than you are terrible teachers. Citing years does not equate skill or knowledge. I do not imply that as an insult, but merely a point. But I digress -- this thread is about OP's question. If you're going to hijack the conversation from them without attempting to help, I would expect that you would give us all the respect to reply or message me privately about my explanation -- with detail. That would truly be of use instead of bickering on about how you dislike people explaining technique in words.

Back to the task at hand:

I think I understand what they're trying to say. Weight and flexibility should be natural, not forced or pushed in any way. I'll experiment a bit. I tend to tense up coming down, and coming up in the infamous measure where you have a an "A" to an "E flat" on 4-5. I tense up to hold my position and do a sort of cookie cutter approach where I move my fingers less and sort of place my hand over the notes quickly and rotate my wrist. My teacher tells me that I'm generally not necessarily tense, but not fluid enough in the wrist.
     I don't really feel any tension in my shoulders, and I only feel tension in my wrist when I play this piece, and weirdly enough, I occasionally feel tension in my jaw muscles when I play scales.... guess that speaks to how much I enjoy them lol

I think that "cookie cutter" method you described is close to what I was getting at in my previous post. The big difference is that you say you "tense up to hold [your] position" when you should try as much as you can to not think of that. This may be a little difficult to put into words, however try this:

Point all of your fingers straight up so that you create a straight line from your wrist to the ends of you fingertips. Remember to stay as relaxed as possible through all of this (you'll want to feel tense around your proximal phalanges and metacarpals by your thumb). Next, bend your fingers (keeping them straight) at a 90-degree angle. If your fingers want to curve a little bit, that's natural and good, but don't overextend your joints on your fingers, keep them curved. Now, place your other hand where your proximal phalanges and metacarpals meet -- those big knuckles I explained before -- and softly push down. This is where the power of your "arch" is. Personally I do not believe you should be tense at all, or if you are, you should be able to relax immediately after in order to keep playing freely and free of injury.

I hope this explanation of the arch will help while playing with your "cookie cutter" hand! Try to experiment with this feeling and see how it matches up with how you play. I would suggest practicing this arch with those rotations by playing arpeggios (C-E-G-C-G-E-C, etc.), trying to increase speed and diminish tension. The hard part of dissecting technique is first knowing what we are doing on our own in the first place.

You also mentioned having tension in your jaw. Stop it! You'd be surprised how much tension spreads to other parts of your body and into your playing in subtle ways (which is why your teacher probably doesn't see tension in your playing overall). When warming up with scales or whatever you do before working on your repertoire, try to focus on what your body parts are doing. Play a scale and think "I'm going to focus on my right elbow" or whathaveyou. Keeping a little reminder post-it note on your piano helps too, like "Don't lock up your jaw!!!" I can't tell you how many times those notes've helped me.

I can't explain this next idea too far because its very "DIY" in nature, but: Everytime you start to feel tension, even in the slightest, stop playing. Let your arms drop. Take a slow, deep breath. When we tense up, blood is restricted from flowing freely into an area. Although this isn't 100% fool-proof, you should feel blood flowing in the areas that are tense. This isn't a fix-all kind of method and it's extremely visceral, however that is something which could help you when practicing certain passages in music.

I hope this helps! And again, let me know if you have any questions, happy practicing!
Recital/MM Audition Program
Bach Chromatic Fantasy & Fugue
Beethoven Op. 111
Liszt Dante
Rachmaninoff Op. 39/6
Kapustin Variations Op. 41

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 01:57:14 AM
Why on earth would you resurrect that load of old bull??
Load of bull? Funnily enough you agreed with my position in that thread, you won't be able to delete that either since it is a locked thread loool.


The fact that OP was able to understand what I was getting at and enabed them to think of their technique in a small way is enough proof for me that what I wrote was useful.
Op said: "I think I understand what they're trying to say." not I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. Also used the word "trying", if what was said was mathematically strong then you would be slapping me saying it's so obviously understandable.

Words can be vague, however we're all here to help each other.
Yes that is why we are here to help you to tell you that your words trying to describe technique is certainly vague. Elaboration of the vagueness needs diagrams, videos and pictures online to become more understandable simply resorting to words and using arbitrary terms (subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion) to describe it will just make it even more confusing.

That's why I said to ask questions anyway.
You are trying to get others to explain technique in words, its just going to create a whole ball of mess and confusion.


You, as a teacher of 20 years, should understand that there is not one way to explain technique to somebody, even in person.
I don't explain technique in words without musical context and the student being right next to me. You are confusing lesson environment with online discussion. They are totally different mediums, you can't treat them the same. I am trying to explain to you that talking technique in words ONLINE is pretty much useless. The discussion is not mathematically accurate, the words can be interpreted in so many ways, piano technique is very specific for specific hands, you are trying to tell it what to do with vague words, it's just so clumsy!

Heck, some teachers with more experience than you are terrible teachers. Citing years does not equate skill or knowledge.
You must be very young. Respect your elders, have you head that saying? There is wisdom that comes with more and more years. I certainly learned the majority of what I know while teaching in the industry, not thinking theoretical ideas and reading text. This took years of experience to learn much. So please don't be idiotic and say years doesn't equate to skill or knowledge. I have focused on teaching for 20+ years 6 out of 7 days of the week. You tell me that doesn't equate to skill and knowledge, who will agree with you, you just will have people laughing in your face.

I do not imply that as an insult, but merely a point.
I wouldn't care if it is was an insult or not, if people are willing to discuss on internet forums they have to expect whatever comes to them and not take things personally.

But I digress -- this thread is about OP's question. If you're going to hijack the conversation from them without attempting to help,
I am trying to say that thinking about technique in words is NOT going to help them. If other people even write about it in words he is not going to understand it completely because you need to FEEL what is said in the hands and because the word directions are so much open to interpretation what you exactly feel could be anything at all!!!

I would expect that you would give us all the respect to reply or message me privately about my explanation -- with detail. That would truly be of use instead of bickering on about how you dislike people explaining technique in words.
Why should I post in a PM when you have posted your disapproval on the public forum???? Why dont YOU pm me and start this? No i am sorry you have put it in the public forum that is your choice.

I think that "cookie cutter" method you described is close to what I was getting at in my previous post.
What the hell is a cookie cutter piano technique? You see how difficult it is to understand you???

The big difference is that you say you "tense up to hold [your] position" when you should try as much as you can to not think of that. This may be a little difficult to put into words, however try this:
How is he tensing up, what exact notes are causing the tension. You think tension is simply a yes no, 1 0 binary situation?? No it extends from many situations.

Point all of your fingers straight up so that you create a straight line from your wrist to the ends of you fingertips.
What is the point? Straight up? Like pointing the the ceiling? Why do this?

Remember to stay as relaxed as possible through all of this (you'll want to feel tense around your proximal phalanges and metacarpals by your thumb).
More madness even more vague, what the hell lol.

Next, bend your fingers (keeping them straight) at a 90-degree angle. If your fingers want to curve a little bit, that's natural and good, but don't overextend your joints on your fingers, keep them curved. Now, place your other hand where your proximal phalanges and metacarpals meet -- those big knuckles I explained before -- and softly push down. This is where the power of your "arch" is. Personally I do not believe you should be tense at all, or if you are, you should be able to relax immediately after in order to keep playing freely and free of injury.
Im sure you are the only person who fully understand what you are saying here. You may feel clever and that you have really explain what you feel, but unfortunately other people will be wondering what on earth you are talking about.

I hope this explanation of the arch will help while playing with your "cookie cutter" hand!
You need to spend a few paragraphs defining the term "cookie cutter" or other readers simply can interpret what that means a billion different ways.

Try to experiment with this feeling and see how it matches up with how you play.
How to experiment? What should they look out for?

I would suggest practicing this arch with those rotations by playing arpeggios (C-E-G-C-G-E-C, etc.), trying to increase speed and diminish tension. The hard part of dissecting technique is first knowing what we are doing on our own in the first place.
What is the "arch", what do these "rotations" look like how are the rotations controlled, how do we go about increasing the speed and what is the tension we should be aware of that is diminishing???? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU DON'T KNOW THAT YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!

You also mentioned having tension in your jaw. Stop it! You'd be surprised how much tension spreads to other parts of your body and into your playing in subtle ways (which is why your teacher probably doesn't see tension in your playing overall).
Im sorry if he has a tense jaw then if he is tense playing Chopin etude this has little to do with the jaw. My eyes sometimes feel tense when I am sight reading for long periods but the rest of my body is fine.


I can't explain this next idea too far because its very "DIY" in nature, but: Everytime you start to feel tension, even in the slightest, stop playing. Let your arms drop. Take a slow, deep breath. When we tense up, blood is restricted from flowing freely into an area. Although this isn't 100% fool-proof, you should feel blood flowing in the areas that are tense. This isn't a fix-all kind of method and it's extremely visceral, however that is something which could help you when practicing certain passages in music.
You admit that describing a methodology of technical improvement is very difficult to explain because it is very "DIY" Why is the experimentation of technical movement not also a part of this system? Certainly it should since it is even more confusing when trying to describe that in words!
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Offline dcstudio

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 05:07:41 AM
Lol. So much for not sounding annoyed... I agree this poster must be very young. 

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 05:17:30 AM
I wish there was a tone of voice on the internet hehe :)

My use of capitals and punctuation is to try to draw attention to important issues lol.

I hope to educate that one need to define their terms clearly to present their idea in an understandable way for others.

I think it is important to realize that if you attempt to discuss some technical idea that you can't go about explaining what it feels like in your own hands, you need to draw together a lot more written knowledge and other media than that to make it understandable. If people go through the effort trying to explain how it works for them they would benefit from knowing all this.
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 06:37:20 AM
Load of bull? Funnily enough you agreed with my position in that thread, you won't be able to delete that either since it is a locked thread loool.
May be but was I going to read through all that again?  Yours was not the only bull obviously - thank god those nutters are gone!
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Offline outin

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #14 on: January 29, 2017, 07:17:27 AM
May be but was I going to read through all that again?  Yours was not the only bull obviously - thank god those nutters are gone!
But we still have some thankfully! How boring would it be without them...

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #15 on: January 29, 2017, 07:26:29 AM
May be but was I going to read through all that again?  Yours was not the only bull obviously - thank god those nutters are gone!
Who told you to read all again? Well you had a chance in that thread to define how it was all "bull" you chose not to and agreed with my stance. You now call it bull without reading it and realising you agreed with me, what does that say about you? Who cares anyway what you think about it hey lol.

Here you go https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=50174.msg546917#msg546917
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #16 on: January 29, 2017, 07:44:50 AM
Thanks.  'hot air' = bull!  That thread, and this forum at the time, was infested by a gang (the 'nutters' I referred to) from a certain Fraser's forum.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #17 on: January 29, 2017, 07:53:02 AM
It was what I was promoting against so to call what I said as bull makes you agree with them. There was two sides of the story both can't be bull unless you have no idea what was being discussed although you will see you took my side as I have provided above so you don't need read ever single post lol. Just be careful when you try and tell me what I said is bull because I'm going to ask you to explain yourself, because you obviously agreed with me back then but now call it bull doesn't speak highly of you, just arguing for the sake of it and changing your stance however it suits you.
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #18 on: January 29, 2017, 08:01:39 AM
Six pages of posts about a topic that can't be written about?  What is that if not total bull?
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #19 on: January 29, 2017, 08:07:04 AM
And yet you agreed with me in that thread. Why are you talking past me now lol. I know too hard to deal with truths against you. Hush now Shh shh shh it's ok... Haha
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 08:48:33 AM
Don't know what your beef is.  Here's my post:

'I must agree with LiiW.  There's much too much hot air and not enough hard example in this forum when it comes to technique.'

In other words why use text when pics and vids illustrate (literally) so much better?
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: How to keep your hand relaxed when you're stretched ?
Reply #21 on: January 29, 2017, 09:26:35 AM
You don't know what my beef is, maybe it was the use of the word "bull" with regards to what I posted in another thread. You should have just kept that to yourself.
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