.

[maplecleff1215]

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[timothy42b]

Well, I don't know anybody who can sing a four part fugue. 

Well, maybe this lady:

Can you recognize when you play a wrong note?  If so, you're probably okay. 

[georgey]

Play the piano.  Don’t worry about singing.  I would do the following every day for 1 minute until you can do this without problem:  Play a note on the piano and try to replicate it by humming or whistling.  My guess is you won’t have any problem learning to replicate the pitch.  Tape yourself if you are having problems.  1 minute a day for 2 weeks.  No need to go further.  If you still can’t do this, don’t worry about it.

[outin]

Well, I don't know anybody who can sing a four part fugue. 

Well, maybe this lady:

And do we know anybody who actually wants to listen to that? 

I don't know where you got the idea that you must song to learn to play? No doubt it is helpful sometimes, but it's certainly not in any way necessary. Singing has always been easy for me, but I still suck with the piano 

[dogperson]

Not sure what type of music you are playing?   But there is no genre that requires singing!  Jazz, blues, classical, pop are frequently done without any type of vocal accompaniment.  Singing is not a skill you need to develop in order to have infinite choices with the piano. 

[timothy42b]

Singing is not a skill you need to develop in order to have infinite choices with the piano. 

Well, yes, but...........there's more to it.

Do you need to know any theory to play the notes you see on the page?  Probably not. 

Do you need to be able to audiate?  Look at a line of music and be able to hear inside your head what it will sound like?  Probably not.

But both of those things can be part of becoming a complete musician, if that's your goal.  Piano lessons commonly teach more than just pressing the keys. 

[iansinclair]

No and yes.  You don't have to be able to sing like Kristine Opolais to be a great or even good pianist.  So that's the no.  The yes is that -- at least in my opinion -- you have to be able to at least feel, internally, the shape of a phrase and a line or lines in the music.  That applies just as much to Bach as to bop.  Can't carry a tune in a basket?  Not to worry -- but you do have to be able to hear it, internally.  At least that's my opinion.

[dcstudio]

I can't begin to describe how important being able to sing has been to me personally...and I am not referring to vocal performance.  Singing internalizes music...the more you sing the deeper that internalization becomes.  My ear training classes and studying solfege laid the foundation for it.  It all came together when I was accompanying oodles of singers.  One day I was playing for an unprepared vocalist when suddenly, out of frustration, I began singing her part while I played mine.  Up to that point it had been difficult to even speak while playing. I realized I could sing and play, or converse and play, heck, once I even carried on a game of backgammon...and never missed a beat. 

[timothy42b]

Yeah but can you do the cups?

[pianoplunker]

Just for your own enjoyment, or maybe for friends and family. Maybe even a local performance on occasion. Do you really need to be able to sing well? I understand that being able to sing a pitch is important. Problem is, even though I know the pitch, I cannot replicate it. So assuming I'm not aiming to play professionally, is not having vocal ability something that should stop me from playing? I really enjoy playing and do not want to stop.

LOL, and LOL again. You write " Problem is, even though I know the pitch, I cannot replicate it"  -- Yeah that would be a problem on any instrument. For me , singing enhances my practice of an accompaning part but at the end of that day I leave singing up to those who have practiced singing and all the technique. You can sing or not sing, just depends on what your focus is. Have fun with it either way.

[pianoplunker]

I can't begin to describe how important being able to sing has been to me personally...and I am not referring to vocal performance.  Singing internalizes music...the more you sing the deeper that internalization becomes.  My ear training classes and studying solfege laid the foundation for it.  It all came together when I was accompanying oodles of singers.  One day I was playing for an unprepared vocalist when suddenly, out of frustration, I began singing her part while I played mine.  Up to that point it had been difficult to even speak while playing. I realized I could sing and play, or converse and play, heck, once I even carried on a game of backgammon...and never missed a beat. 

I agree with you 100% about how singing can bring it internally. However, I would have to see a video of someone winning a BackGammon game while singing and playing. In fact, a video wont even do. I would have to watch with several witnesses  before I believed that, LOL. 
 

[ted]

I am useless at singing and therefore constitute a counterexample. Nonetheless, I sometimes wish I could sing as it seems to impart much joy to those who can, such as my wife, who has a wonderful voice, sings in choirs and frequently chides me about my lack of the ability.

[keypeg]

I sing as an untrained amateur, and probably not too badly.  The only "teaching" I ever got for many years was when a gr. 2 or 3 school teacher decided to give us solfege for that year, so I had a strong sense of diatonic patterns.  Yes, it did help for many things.  But it did not help for others, and the diatonic element even proved to be a handicap eventually.

My strength in singing helps me visualize a melodic line, and I often get comments that these come through strongly in my playing.  That said, I'm overcoming a blurring of registers: I can easily play in the wrong octave and not notice.  Even though I have (had?) 3 octaves, that still doesn't cover the whole span of the keyboard, and what we tend to do is to simply continue an octave higher or lower when music goes out of our range.  That creates a kind of register-blindness.

I can sing chord types melodically; major, minor, diminished, augmented.  But I am weak in recognizing the colour of certain kinds of chords - I might think a diminished chord is a minor chord, because I am hearing the minor third of two of the notes. 

Another thing is that you should not "play like a singer".  When I sing, I have to keep singing the note until it stops sounding.  On piano, you may be holding that note with the sustain pedal, and move over early.  Even if you "hold down" the piano key, you must release the pressure in your hand in order to gain relaxation - while as a singer your effort must continue - while on piano the strings resonate once struck without your effort.

[lostinidlewonder]

Most people suck at singing. Even if you sing in tune and have vibrato it is usually just boring and mediocre. Very rare to have a great singing voice, its not something you can really train, you either have it or not, sad fact.

[outin]

Most people suck at singing. Even if you sing in tune and have vibrato it is usually just boring and mediocre. Very rare to have a great singing voice, its not something you can really train, you either have it or not, sad fact.

Then again, many people have good voice material but just cannot sing properly...that you CAN train.

[Bob]

As a tool, yes.  Not needed as a full instrument though.

[lostinidlewonder]

Then again, many people have good voice material but just cannot sing properly...that you CAN train.

Yeah but "good" voice is nice for karaoke or something like that. Even many "pro" singers these days who make albums rely on technology to sound good but listen to them live and they are nothing special at all.

[outin]

Yeah but "good" voice is nice for karaoke or something like that. Even many "pro" singers these days who make albums rely on technology to sound good but listen to them live and they are nothing special at all.

I was actually referring to more traditional singing, even if not opera. Amateur singing is still quite popular here, especially choruses. Although maybe not among teens.

[themeandvariation]

voice: 'good or bad' is beside the point.  One must Engage the voice in music.
It is part of the practice toolbox.. (not necessarily for others to hear, anymore than having one (another)  listen to a passage being practiced - over and over)

[iansinclair]

I was actually referring to more traditional singing, even if not opera. Amateur singing is still quite popular here, especially choruses. Although maybe not among teens.

I'm glad to hear that!  I have a real fondness for the quality of singing -- the voice quality -- in all the Baltic countries (in which I include Finland -- please don't be offended if that doesn't really apply!).  The choral singing especially is superb -- unequaled in my view -- and several of the brightest current opera singers are from the region.

Not surprised about the teens, though -- though somewhat saddened.  But what can one expect if they never hear any real music?

[maplecleff1215]

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[dogperson]

Thank you for all the answers! What I'm gathering from this is that though it would be very helpful, it's not really a necessity.

Now I'll present another scenario, of which the answer is probably yes: What if you were to go to college for piano? Or what if you wanted to teach or play professionally? Then would vocal ability be required?

I have had several highly trained piano instructors, including one who is a former concert pianist.... and they could not sing well (not even in a paper bag).  What they were capable and unashamed of doing is singing badly to demonstrate the dynamics or phrasing.  ... it was just not always 'pretty' in terms of pitch.   Ability = zero;  demonstration = 100%.  More than 'good enough' for being excellent teachers.

[georgey]

Thank you for all the answers! What I'm gathering from this is that though it would be very helpful, it's not really a necessity.

Now I'll present another scenario, of which the answer is probably yes: What if you were to go to college for piano? Or what if you wanted to teach or play professionally? Then would vocal ability be required?

At my college, music majors had to take 2 semesters of sight singing.  Needed to be able to sing tonal chromatic melodies at first sight. Vocal quality meant nothing but reasonably good intonation was required.  Words sung were do, di, re, ri, me, fa, etc.

[iansinclair]

Thank you for all the answers! What I'm gathering from this is that though it would be very helpful, it's not really a necessity.

Now I'll present another scenario, of which the answer is probably yes: What if you were to go to college for piano? Or what if you wanted to teach or play professionally? Then would vocal ability be required?

If you are going to be a music major, you are going to sing.  They won't expect you to be Jonas Kaufman or Kristine Opolais (or Alison Krauss, in another genre!)(though if you are, they'll grab you quick!) but you are going to sing.  Singing is regarded, rightly, as being absolutely fundamental to being able to shape a phrase -- dynamics, articulation, everything.

[timothy42b]

Now I'll present another scenario, of which the answer is probably yes: What if you were to go to college for piano? Or what if you wanted to teach or play professionally? Then would vocal ability be required?

I don't know, for piano.  My primary instrument is trombone, and singing is mandatory for both teacher and student.  Vocal quality is not expected, but intonation is, breathing in the correct spot, moving the phrase, etc. 

[outin]

Not surprised about the teens, though -- though somewhat saddened.  But what can one expect if they never hear any real music?

I would not say they don't hear real music. It's just appealing to become famous or even rich without years rigorous training...that I guess is the point of the singing competitions on TV...

[lostinidlewonder]

I was actually referring to more traditional singing...

So you reckon you can train "traditional" singing to a high level? Personally I don't see the difference, singing is singing. You need a voice for it, you can't magically make your voice amazing it's what you are born with, it's a physical nature of your voicebox, way of talking, tongue etc, sure you can sing in tune etc but really thats not what great singing is only about, you need to have that special type of voice otherwise its just mediocre which is what most people sound like even if trained. We not talking about choirs here, the op talking about piano playing and singing as the pianist.

Reason why I bring this up is because people can play piano well but when they start singing they ruin it all. As soon as you sing it becomes the focal point not the piano playing.

[anamnesis]

So you reckon you can train "traditional" singing to a high level? Personally I don't see the difference, singing is singing. You need a voice for it, you can't magically make your voice amazing it's what you are born with, it's a physical nature of your voicebox, way of talking, tongue etc, sure you can sing in tune etc but really thats not what great singing is only about, you need to have that special type of voice otherwise its just mediocre which is what most people sound like even if trained. We not talking about choirs here, the op talking about piano playing and singing as the pianist.

Reason why I bring this up is because people can play piano well but when they start singing they ruin it all. As soon as you sing it becomes the focal point not the piano playing.

Since when is training just being able to sing in tune? 

Yes you need a "voice" for it, but there's a reason there's different voice fachs that match certain literature and roles in order to match timbre quality and range requirements.  Everyone's voice can sound amazing with training within the fachs they fit. One of the reason amateur singing sucks is simply that most people aren't actually exposed to music that there voices naturally fit, especially men. 

As for way of talking/tongue, there's a reason singers have to study diction and IPA.  Diction is not just something you just "wing". 



 

[outin]

Since when is training just being able to sing in tune? 

It's not. One can learn to breath better, use the right muscles and relax where needed and so on and all of this can be heard in the voice. Keeping in tune is important but it will not alone make your voice sound pleasant. It is true that one cannot change the basic shape of your body and the size of the resonant chambers, but there's still plenty one can train. The actual voice is produced with muscles (the so called vocal chords). You can learn to control them, the air flow and the resonances just like any instrument.

Articulation is another thing and it depends a lot on the kind of music one is singing. It tends to sound quite horrible when a trained opera singer sings jazz. But maybe Lost thinks only classical singing is great singing? When I said traditional singing I referred to folk music, hymns and such which we used to be exposed a lot as children. Many songs we all learned in school were written by "classical" composers and were also performed by professional singers.

For me a beautiful singing voice is  resonant, effortless, full bodied, in tune and has beautiful tones and colours in different registers. It is rare to have all that and even more rare to have it "naturally" without training. But I'd say I can find more amateur singers from the street that sound good to me than I can find piano players of the same quality. I personally know quite a few people who studies singing to a very high level but never made a living out of it.

[timothy42b]

Personally I don't see the difference, singing is singing. You need a voice for it, you can't magically make your voice amazing it's what you are born with, it's a physical nature of your voicebox, way of talking, tongue etc, sure you can sing in tune etc but really thats not what great singing is only about, you need to have that special type of voice otherwise its just mediocre which is what most people sound like even if trained.

I do not think this is correct.

I think singing is a skill, and the largest component of that is tuning the formants and upper harmonics.  Unlike piano, where all the overtones for a given note are fixed, the voice can sing a Bb on thousands of subtle vowel variations and can tune those harmonics to resonate in the vocal cavities. 

I think people with that "special voice" you describe often learned this by accident, "naturally," but it can be taught to most of the rest of us.

Voice teachers vary in skill even more than piano teachers, unfortunately, and a bad one can do irreversible damage. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Since when is training just being able to sing in tune? 

Who said that?

Everyone's voice can sound amazing with training within the fachs they fit.

I think that is wishful thinking.

I think singing is a skill, and the largest component of that is tuning the formants and upper harmonics.  

You can train as hard as you like if you can't naturally sing well you have no hope.

I think people with that "special voice" you describe often learned this by accident, "naturally," but it can be taught to most of the rest of us.

Nope I disagree with the "most" part, I haven't heard many good voices out there, certainly much rarer than good pianists.

Voice teachers vary in skill even more than piano teachers, unfortunately, and a bad one can do irreversible damage.  

That's just your opinion, how can you say its MORE than piano teachers?


Im sorry but you can't train someone to sing amazingly if they don't already have a naturally good voice to start with. If you play piano well then start singing with an average voice it ruins the whole performance, i've heard it tonns and tonns of times on boat cruises, pubs, clubs, dining venues busking, concert halls etc etc etc.

[outin]

Im sorry but you can't train someone to sing amazingly if they don't already have a naturally good voice to start with. If you play piano well then start singing with an average voice it ruins the whole performance, i've heard it tonns and tonns of times on boat cruises, pubs, clubs, dining venues busking, concert halls etc etc etc.

It's really difficult to sing well while playing and I would not even try. Singing is best done standing up and playing is usually done sitting. But I really did not think the op was talking about playing and singing at the same time, but rather if studying singing should be added to  studying piano playing...

I don't know if it's in our genes or if it's the climate, but good voices that can be trained to much better seemed to be rather common in my younger days. Every class had at least one or two natural born singers...

[timothy42b]

Quote from: timothy42b on Today at 12:10:22 PM

I think singing is a skill, and the largest component of that is tuning the formants and upper harmonics

. 

Quote from L-I-w: You can train as hard as you like if you can't naturally sing well you have no hope.

Sounds like you haven't put any thought into what specifically differentiates a good voice. 

Or how to develop the grit, chest voice, head voice, and whistle registers. 

[iansinclair]

I agree on singing while playing -- it's very very difficult, and I admire the folks who can.  I can't; never could!  On most people singing -- there are very very few people who absolutely cannot hear or duplicate pitches, although there are some.  Most people who claim they can't simply have never really tried.  Not saying that most people will have great or beautiful or even interesting singing voices; they won't.  But to hum along or sing along?  Almost anyone.

[maplecleff1215]

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[iansinclair]

Well now I'm a bit discouraged haha. Is there absolutely anything that I can do at home without a teacher to improve singing on key (and maybe even widen my range)? College for piano is just wishful thinking at this point, but if I cannot sing, then I don't think I should even attempt it.

I presume from your comment about college that you are in high school?  Does your school have a choral group?  You might try that.  Do you belong to a church?  Does it have a choir?  Try that -- or your minister of music.  At home, you might try recording yourself.  Also -- don't laugh -- singing in the shower!

[maplecleff1215]

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[outin]

Well now I'm a bit discouraged haha. Is there absolutely anything that I can do at home without a teacher to improve singing on key (and maybe even widen my range)? College for piano is just wishful thinking at this point, but if I cannot sing, then I don't think I should even attempt it.

Of course you can. Practice. Start with something easy, use the piano to check pitch and maybe record yourself. Just like you would self teach piano. Learn easy songs and also sing scales and do voice exercises. There's plenty of material in the net how.

Don't listen to Lost...You don't need a beautiful voice or to be anything special to pass singing courses. Lower grade  teachers here are required to study  singing, but they are not expected to sound like professions performers.

[Bob]

Just do some vocal sirens to match pitch.  Do them in the car.

Get a guitar.  Then you free up some mental resources.  Break a few strings.  Who cares?  Learn how to tune a guitar and match the pitch of the strings exactly.  It gets your ear in tune.

Learn to sing Do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do.  A scale.  If you can do that, you'll train your ear to focus on pitch more.  Then figure out how to match pitch (sirens).  

Buzz your lips or flap them to practice some air support.  Lead with the belly.  (Or take some beginner voice lessons.)   Speak, then speak longer, and longer, and then it becomes a sustained tone.  Then match that tone to something else.  Or just hold it and hit keys on the piano, and you've got some kind of harmony.  "See" (hear) what sounds good.  Then move your voice around or move the piano pitches around.  Eventually you're going to match.

Then go through an ear training course.  Ear training 101.  You probably won't regret it at all.  Consider it an investment in your piano practice, like theory.  It IS theory and IS music still.

[Bob]

Ditto.  You're looking for voice as a tool, not as an instrument.  You don't need a beautiful voice.  You just need a basic working voice.

It's not that much in our (American, at least where I live) culture anymore.  And there'a  stigma attached to it too, or a self-consciousness.

Learn to sing Happy Birthday.  That will definitely payoff.  You won't feel self-conscious, you'll sound halfway decent, and very likely no one will criticize you because their singing will be far, far, far subpar what you can do with an ounce of effort.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sounds like you haven't put any thought into what specifically differentiates a good voice.  

Well what else do you need but your own ears and personal opinion? It is not mathematics when it comes to music, but I have a good ear for music and I really find most people who sing are not that crash hot. That is just me, perhaps others who are less picky will appreciate mediocre singers, perhaps I am more like a Simon Cowell lol. I wouldn't listen to people who say you can do it and encourage you even though you sound silly, thats more cruel.

[maplecleff1215]

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[keypeg]

Buzz your lips or flap them to practice some air support.  Lead with the belly.  

How, exactly, does someone read those words, and then go about doing them?  And as far as playing piano goes, why would they even try to do belly-leads, lip buzzes, etc.?  I once had an air mattress - that gave me air support when I was sleeping.

I was once invited by a fellow chorist to come practice a difficult piece of music with her.  At some point she revealed she had had lessons with some teacher, and came out with the weirdest things, of which I assume "flapping lips" was one of them.  I could find and reach the notes, and she couldn't, as untrained as I was.  I was also in a choir where the "choirmaster", who was not a singer, played vocal trainer and imposed some exercises which led to my feeling like I was choking.  Later I discovered that exercise had been abandoned decades ago because, guess what - it caused people to choke (or blow out the vocal chords through the extra air that went up that direction).  Then there was the piano accompanist who took over from the choirmaster when he was sick and finally got to do the teaching that she had always wanted to do.  Red faces and coughing all round - in fact both these dabblers in teaching singing left an aftermath of hoarse voices.

The point is that trying out technical ideas you read about for something as delicate and elusive and singing is not a good idea.  We do not need to become singers in order to play the piano.  I do sing, and not badly, and it does not help me with my technique.  Nor can I sing the full range of the piano (nobody can) even with my three octaves, and most untrained singers have a much smaller range.

[iansinclair]

Keypeg has a point -- although there seems to be a history of truly unfortunate vocal training, which is, I regret to say, all too common.

However, my point is this: you don't have to be a pro. or even trained singer to be a pianist.  In fact, to be a technically competent pianist I doubt that you even need to be able to sing at all.  Years ago I had a nice player piano upright, with a whole library of rolls to go with it, which was technically stunning.  That, however, is not what I presume you are after: you would like to be a musician, not a machine -- and unless you can at least think and feel in terms of the shape of a melody and phrase you will never be a musician.  And that is not an intellectual exercise; that is singing. 

[Bob]

How, exactly, does someone read those words, and then go about doing them?  And as far as playing piano goes, why would they even try to do belly-leads, lip buzzes, etc.?  I once had an air mattress - that gave me air support when I was sleeping.

I was writing fast, and if the original poster doesn't sing... It's not critical to me.  It dawned on me they not breathe with enough power for sining.  So a step below singing is breath.  Deep, relaxed breath in, leading with the abs.  Push the air out, leading with the abs.  The lips could buzz, lap, whatever, as a measurement for that air stream.  If the air support isn't there, singing is going to be a lot more difficult.  It's building on crappy support.  There's also posture below that, not squeezing with the chest....

[iansinclair]

Good points, Bob -- to which I will add this: if one learns to breathe properly -- from the abdomen or diaphragm or abs or however you want to put it, and not use the chest muscles for all that work, it frees one's shoulders -- and voila!  Much less tension while you are playing piano!

[maplecleff1215]

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[outin]

Piano pedagogy is just a stray thought at the moment. Do you think that one could really improve well enough at meet at least the bare minimum standards to pass any singing tests that may occur during those classes?

Absolutely yes. Stop worrying and practice playing instead

[timothy42b]

Piano pedagogy is just a stray thought at the moment. Do you think that one could really improve well enough at meet at least the bare minimum standards to pass any singing tests that may occur during those classes?

Barring some unusual difficulty (hearing defect, learning disorder, etc.) of course.

The singing required as part of learning piano is simply listening and matching tones, recognizing and producing intervals.  No particular vocal quality is needed. 

The singing required of a vocalist, despite L-I-w's contempt for their craft, requires the same effort and dedication as learning piano, violin, or any other instrument. 

Singing while playing is a different problem.  It does take an expanded attention and some find this impossible, just as I imagine some find playing both hands impossible, and some organist find playing both hands plus the feet impossible.  On the other hand a lot of people learn to do all of those reasonably well, so it may just be a matter of taking the time to learn it.

If you've been around here a while you've seen the video I did of singing while playing the cups ala Pitch Perfect.  My singing definitely suffered while adding the percussion, and it isn't great to begin with, but I got through the task (it was a requirement for work).  But this was something I threw together in an evening, not something I practiced daily until mastered. 

[keypeg]

Can anyone possibly match tones on all the notes of the piano?  Who would possibly have that kind of range.