help with pedal marks in chopin op72 no1

[itzik0525168]

hi, i don't understand when to release the pedal and when to press again.
from the sheet it's seem to me that there is stop between releasing the pedal until the next use

for example in the attached picture
*in the second measure after C realese the pedal,
B without pedal and in E using again.

*in measure 5 if G and F should play with or without pedal?

please indicate specific examples for me to understand

i didn't try this yet but i think it can sound cut?

[themeandvariation]

Your concerned about the pedaling in a measure you haven't even played yet?
Geez. 
You got a teacher?
Try looking at other editions w/ re to pedaling. (Mixed opinion on this).. In the end, it must work with your ear's understanding.   Lot's of aesthetics could be applied to the question, but you haven't even played the measure. 

[iansinclair]

Other than that being one of the most difficult Nocturnes to get to sound well, and yet one of the most beautiful when it does...

You will only be able to figure out when to apply and release the pedal in that Nocturne when you have fully understood the harmonic sequences.  In effect, regard the left hand figures as broken chords (which they are).  The pedal is used to keep the lower notes of the chords sounding as the figure rises.

However.  You have to also take into account what the melodic lines in the right hand are doing (kindly note that there is more than one line in most of the piece, and they must sing and phrase properly!) -- so you can't just blindly pedal along or you will smear them.

If you don't have a teacher, you should listen to a number of different interpretations, and figure out what you do and don't like.  Then set about creating your own version.  If you don't have a teacher -- or a very informed critic -- then you should record what you are doing and see if it is saying what you want.

As I said in the beginning, though -- in my opinion, this is a very difficult Nocturne.  Not technically, emotionally.  It also happens to be one of my favourites, though -- I usually use it as an encore, when asked for one -- so maybe I'm biased!

[outin]

hi, i don't understand when to release the pedal and when to press again.
from the sheet it's seem to me that there is stop between releasing the pedal until the next use

for example in the attached picture
*in the second measure after C realese the pedal,
B without pedal and in E using again.

*in measure 5 if G and F should play with or without pedal?

please indicate specific examples for me to understand

i didn't try this yet but i think it can sound cut?

The pedal markings in Chopin are often a bit weird. Partly because of the inconsistency of his manuscripts and partly because the instruments in his era behaved and sounded differently. You should use your ears to determine what works and just use the marked pedal changes as guides. Just avoid blurring and change rather too often than not if you ask me. Chopin sounds best when played with clarity.

[itzik0525168]

OK thanks
i will try as you say to play and then decided by how it's sound.


it just was new to me that interpretation also related to using pedal.
i thought that using pedal is unconditioned -when mark to use then use, when mark to release then release

[adodd81802]

You must know that there are different levels of pedalling and different calls for it depending on how the piano responds, as one example of composer notation.

I also like to read the music as how the composer intended the piece to sound, not what they intended you to do. Try holding the pedal from the G all the way to the end and see how it sounds, chances are that F-F# will clash and so you can start to get a better idea of why the pedaling was off for the G and F and THEN on for the F#. Just listening to how it sounds should give you a better indication.

[itzik0525168]

OK thanks
i tried playing the measure that you mention and i understand how it's sound different.
i will practice it at the complete piece.
the impotent thing for me from this post is that the way of using pedal in specific piece isn't definite.

i also want to know if there is recommend sequence for learning piece.
what i mean its that so far i was practicing
right hand and left hand separately,
after that i was practice left hand+pedal.
finally i was practice together right+left+pedal.

the reason i ask it that if i for example get used to using pedal only by playing the left hand
there can be dissonant(problems...you name it) in specific place when the right hand will add. but when i will know it, i already accustomed to using the pedal in this way. hope i was clear.


 

[iansinclair]

I think I'd be rather wary of practicing the pedal with one hand alone -- particularly on a piece like this one, where some dissonances which really aren't dissonances appear when you have both hands together.  While, as I mentioned, the left hand is broken chords, the problem is that if you take pieces of the left hand and then add the right, you discover that the left hand chord really becomes something else part way through -- and if one is holding the pedal, you smear that.

So... I think I would get both hands pretty solid together.  Then I would start adding the pedal where it seemed like it added to the piece.  I was just playing that a moment ago, and thinking about it -- and realising that I use rather less pedal than the edition you have suggests, and break the pedal much more often.  But -- that happens to be the way I like it to sound, and your taste, quite legitimately, may be quite different!  Also the piano may make a difference -- I play on a Steinway D concert grand, which has a lot of resonance and power.

[outin]

I personally learn pieces hands together and with the pedal from the start. It is important for me to get the idea of the whole package (how the piece is supposed to sound) into my head first. I usually try to play through once and then start working in somewhat meaningful sections. Later I can practice the more difficult sections hands separate or without the pedal as well to get it into my hands. But if I don't have an idea of what I am aiming for I find practicing details is not working. But that's just me.

I really love this piece too...I am not a huge fan of the nocturnes, but this and a couple of others are really wonderful. I tried to learn it a bit too early myself and kind of lost steam with the last page (there are some tricky chords for my small hand). I should get back to it one day now that I have a bit more ability. And it will probably sound a lot better on the grand that I have now...

[adodd81802]

OK thanks
i tried playing the measure that you mention and i understand how it's sound different.
i will practice it at the complete piece.
the impotent thing for me from this post is that the way of using pedal in specific piece isn't definite.

i also want to know if there is recommend sequence for learning piece.
what i mean its that so far i was practicing
right hand and left hand separately,
after that i was practice left hand+pedal.
finally i was practice together right+left+pedal.

the reason i ask it that if i for example get used to using pedal only by playing the left hand
there can be dissonant(problems...you name it) in specific place when the right hand will add. but when i will know it, i already accustomed to using the pedal in this way. hope i was clear.

Everything in a score is open to at least a limited amount of interpretation because of how vague our musical terms are.

If a composer puts P, or they put F, how can we truely know the exact volume of sound they were suggesting. We have to take the piece as a whole and try to understand the composers intentions as best possible. We can also do research on composers to further understand their play style, for Example, everyone knows Chopin had a very delicate and almost feeble touch, and so what he puts as P could be PP for another composer.

The same applies to pedal, the composer is indicating that Pedal be applied to achieve the sound they had intended, but where exactly is up to your ability to listen to how it sounds.

Regarding your learning strategy, honestly there are 1000 different ways you can learn a piece that works and maybe 10 ways that you can lean that works personally for you.

For me I go a couple bars at a time, almost a phrase, hands together, pedal and where possible dynamics, but I will focus more as I develop my knowledge of the whole piece. Some love going through the whole piece one hand then another, some like learning the notes with no pedalling at all, practice different ways and see what works for you.

[itzik0525168]

OK
thanks for your answers