Rests and hand movement

[kuska]

OK, so I was told I should take my hands up significantly when there're rests on the way. And I'm not so sure. I mean, I usually take my hands up (I still mean a visible move) when it's a slower piece and there's e.g. some kind of the end of a part, or when I need to make it louder, or when I need to make it deeper - it's natural. But if I encounter e.g. a quaver rest in Sonatina, should I really really take my hand up? I take it off from the key so why should I move it up? OK, maybe I'm a bit lazy but for me it's just an excess of form.

[outin]

I can see why a teacher would ask for this to make sure you learn to take note of the rests and breath properly on music. But in real playing? Unless one wants to show off with hands falling from high above. Or make a note to the audience. Much of live piano playing is relying on visual clues...

[kuska]

That sounds like a reasonable opinion to me. I wasn't given any like this, that's why I wonder. As far as I understood, I should do it all the time just like that, cause it looks so beautiful. That's not something I'd agree with.

[louispodesta]

OK, so I was told I should take my hands up significantly when there're rests on the way. And I'm not so sure. I mean, I usually take my hands up (I still mean a visible move) when it's a slower piece and there's e.g. some kind of the end of a part, or when I need to make it louder, or when I need to make it deeper - it's natural. But if I encounter e.g. a quaver rest in Sonatina, should I really really take my hand up? I take it off from the key so why should I move it up? OK, maybe I'm a bit lazy but for me it's just an excess of form.

Ever heard of a pianist by the name of Arthur ("Artur") Rubenstein.  Well, one of the first things my late teacher Robert Weaver taught me and all of his students was to observe closely how the great concert pianists performed.

1)  Most of them (Not Lang Lang), sit like a stone.  There is very little physical movement (absent the De Falla "Fire Dance") of Rubenstein jumping around at the the piano.

2)  What he does is to not only rest each hand, but most importantly, is to immediately position the other hand over the notes/chords that are to come next.

3)  Should you do both, in my opinion, absolutely yes!

4)  You have heard of Youtube?  Well, as well as others, look for yourself.

[hardy_practice]

If the following note takes an accent, like it's the beginning of a phrase, then it makes sense.  Post an example.

[kuska]

If the following note takes an accent, like it's the beginning of a phrase, then it makes sense.  Post an example.

I can't as it wasn't about anything concrete, that's why I've got a problem with this. And your remark also sounds sensible to me.

Mentioning Rubinstein doesn't make much sense here for me, though. As far as I observed, older people tend to do this movement a lot automatically and I would just associate it with something like "old school" and I think the remark was also a bit in that style. He was taught so, so he thinks I should also do it but can't give me better reasons than "it looks good". I might be wrong of course, correct me then.
And yes, I use to move at the piano when I feel at ease so I don't sit still unless stressed out. And still, I sometimes also move my hands up

[anamnesis]

Whiteside on rests:

"Are rests an interruption of rhythmic continuity?

They certainly should not be. Rests should be as full of action toward the desired goal as the held tone should be. Probably that is a bad simile, for too many pianists unfortunately rest on held tones. Say, rather, as full of progression as is the body of the polo pony when its feet are off the earth, as we see it in a slow-motion picture."

---

"Ends of phrases should not let down they should carry over. Rests in the music are places to hold the power at attention not for a release of power and it cessation of the rhythmic follow-through. Nothing is more harmful to a musical performance than letting each phrase die at the end. Retards are only vitally effective when they are played in such a manner that the audience waits with bated breath for what is about to follow. Only one retard should be final in its conception and that is the one at the close of the composition."

---

"Even rests should be played by both arms consistently; there should never be relaxation during rests, a letting-down or letting-go of the musical mood. Quite the reverse: Both arms are always alive and subject to the same emotional current from the torso. When this is not the case, and one arm rests in between activity for tone production (in other words, does not stay active in between articulations and during rests), there is never the same kind of control in dynamics which is produced when there is constant tapping of the emotional current of the torso by both arms."

-----

"Teaching must be concerned primarily with implementing a continuity in power (activity in the upper arms) which is active from the first tone through every tone until the musical message has been projected. Rests, as well as tones, must be filled with activity."

----

My thoughts:

Whiteside's approach elevates the actions (and physical sensations)-between-tones just as important, if not more so, than the actions of articulation.  Silence in rests, does not mean inaction, or at least the stopping of the sensation of physical continuity and destination.  Rhythm as we experience has to move forward in time, and our job is to elegantly space tones and silences.     

Does this mean you have to take your hand up?   Not necessarily, in the obvious sense.  The actions-in-between tones primarily involves the centrally-organized movement of the body, which can be a lot more subtle if even noticed by the audience (but it must always be felt by the performer). 

Having said that,  the fact that you only mention the hands being "up" misses part of the point because it doesn't involve the sensation of follow-though, which is anathema to Whiteside.   

"An integral factor in a rhythm is that it is going forward: its essence is destination. It is possessed of a follow-through. It never stands still. It creates relationships by this going forward to a destination."

In other words, the rest needs to be elegantly embodied along the way to the destination of the next note in how it spaced within a phrase as the phrase is spaced within the entire piece.  If you statically just let the hand rest without any sensation of spaced destination, you stop embodying time and continuity.  Again, look at the polo pony simile in the first quote.  It's not on the ground, but can you say nothing is happening and that there is no sensation of destination for the pony? Should the experience of being on the ground make it ignore the experience as it gallops through the air? 

[hardy_practice]

I can't as it wasn't about anything concrete, that's why I've got a problem with this. And your remark also sounds sensible to me.

I meant post a few bars of music that illustrate your dilemma.  Anything will do.

[kuska]

I meant post a few bars of music that illustrate your dilemma.  Anything will do.

We don't understand each other  I don't have that dilemma regarding anything that I would be able to show. If that was it, I would be able to ask more specific questions, indeed. That remark was told me just in general. And this is why I oppose. It just doesn't sound right to me to tell someone that they should take up their hands each time then encounter rests in a sheet.

However, we can of course talk on an example of a piece if this makes you easier to express your opinion.

I used to play this one in a bit slower tempo and I do take my hands up on the rests - just to make the bass sound better and deeper. This is understandable for me. Even though she doesn't do this here.

However, here, e.g.
https://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/8/8b/IMSLP226470-SIBLEY1802.19368.c0da-39087012741296score.pdf

I'd rather go withough moving my hand more than I need to play a beginning of the coucou sound but then when it comes to bars 5-9 I do take my hand up, as again it's needed for the sound in a way that I believe in

Does it make any sense?

[hardy_practice]

You wouldn't move your hands at all for the Daquin.  In fact I very much doubt it was written for the piano.

[keypeg]

As far as I understood, I should do it all the time just like that, cause it looks so beautiful. That's not something I'd agree with.

So if I understand this, your teacher wants you to move your hands a lot during rest, for the sake of it looking pretty?

[kuska]

So if I understand this, your teacher wants you to move your hands a lot during rest, for the sake of it looking pretty?

Well, not really my teacher (he helps me for now) but as to the second part of your statement - yes, this is what I understood from that remark.

Btw, I'm looking for a teacher on Skype, for advanced. Can anyone recommend me a good one? I'm not really willing to take somebody I can't listen to before I write. What do you guys think of these two? (I also hate when they don't give their full names so that I can check them up)

https://pianoteachersconnect.com/skype-apostolos
https://pianoteachersconnect.com/skype-cecilia

[keypeg]

Well, not really my teacher (he helps me for now) but as to the second part of your statement - yes, this is what I understood from that remark. 

The point was whether the teacher who told you this, while teaching you, was saying it was for the sake of looking pretty.  You have confirmed it.  If it's for looking pretty, I can't respect that.

Btw, I'm looking for a teacher on Skype, for advanced. Can anyone recommend me a good one? I'm not really willing to take somebody I can't listen to before I write. What do you guys think of these two? (I also hate when they don't give their full names so that I can check them up)
https://pianoteachersconnect.com/skype-apostolos
https://pianoteachersconnect.com/skype-cecilia

How could any of us have an opinion about either of these teachers, unless we studied with them?

[kuska]

How could any of us have an opinion about either of these teachers, unless we studied with them?

Lol, you can't. It was about recordings provided there 

[keypeg]

Lol, you can't. It was about recordings provided there 

The recording doesn't tell us anything about how well they teach.
I'm wondering whether both recordings were done using the same equipment, because there is a similar quality to them.  There is an utter lack of dynamics in both recordings, which may mean that the sound is being "equalized" by the recording equipment or software, or maybe they're using digital pianos without touch sensitivity?  My ears are not fine enough for the latter.
Thing is, somebody might play superbly, but can he or she teach?

[kuska]

Thing is, somebody might play superbly, but can he or she teach?

I get your point. The problem is that I'm a bit picky when it comes to teachers. At best they should be great pianists, great teachers and there has to be this very sense of chemistry between us as this is also about a relationship to me. Well, maybe I'm not very good at judging the first one, so I just judge what I like (Bach Scholar isn't what I like for sure) and I ask better pianists than I. The good thing is once I accept my teacher I'm a very commited student willing to give everything from myself (in the sense of studies of course ). The bad thing is I don't have many people to choose from right now, so it's not probably the best idea to be picky.
And being a good teacher is probably the hardest one to check - I believe you can only judge this by the results in time.

[dogperson]

Well, not really my teacher (he helps me for now) but as to the second part of your statement - yes, this is what I understood from that remark.

Btw, I'm looking for a teacher on Skype, for advanced. Can anyone recommend me a good one? I'm not really willing to take somebody I can't listen to before I write. What do you guys think of these two? (I also hate when they don't give their full names so that I can check them up)

https://pianoteachersconnect.com/skype-apostolos
https://pianoteachersconnect.com/skype-cecilia

If you're looking for a Skype teacher,  check out Josh Wright
https://www.joshwrightpiano.com/skype-lessons.html

You can find his instructions on You Tube, and also listen to some of his recordings

[kuska]

If you're looking for a Skype teacher,  check out Josh Wright
https://www.joshwrightpiano.com/skype-lessons.html

You can find his instructions on You Tube, and also listen to some of his recordings

I know Josh's videos and I love them. Unfortunately it's not my financial category. I could try a quarter version of his lesson but not really sure it this makes sense if I'm looking for a regular, thoroughful guidance. Pau Barton, on the other hand, doesn't even teach

[dogperson]

I know Josh's videos and I love them. Unfortunately it's not my financial category. I could try a quarter version of his lesson but not really sure it this makes sense if I'm looking for a regular, thoroughful guidance. Pau Barton, on the other hand, doesn't even teach

 I personally don't see that inexpensive and advanced Skype lessons will ever be in the same sentence,   If you want advanced training, either Skype or in person,  it will be costly  as instructors who teach advanced students well Will not be on the lower end of the cost spectrum. 

[kuska]

I personally don't see that inexpensive and advanced Skype lessons will ever be in the same sentence,   If you want advanced training, either Skype or in person,  it will be costly  as instructors who teach advanced students well Will not be on the lower end of the cost spectrum.  

Probably you're right and I'm far from saying that they charge too much anyway. But while Josh Wright earns $120 per hour, I earn $4. It's simple just beyond my ability, so I need to find some substitutes I guess, like 15 minutes lessons e.g.

[dogperson]

Probably you're right and I'm far from saying that they charge too much anyway. But while Josh Wright earns $120 per hour, I earn $4. It's simple just beyond my ability, so I need to find some substitutes I guess, like 15 minutes lessons e.g.

I did understand your post to be abut not being  able to afford the high-tier options.  Rather than looking at 15 min lessons, which would be unsatisfying in really digging into the music,  I would suggest;
- Looking for a more affordable option where you could maintain a reasonable frequency -- this may mean you 'need to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince'.   OR
- Take VERY occasional lessons from one of the more expensive teachers---- but having an hour lesson.  This means you would need to  do more self-work, and organize the lesson time so that it is the most productive.

I truly sympathize and the options will take some work to find out what is best for you. 

[keypeg]

 as instructors who teach advanced students well Will not be on the lower end of the cost spectrum. 

Fortunately that is not always true, either way.

[dogperson]

Fortunately that is not always true, either way.

How many instructors do you know who teach advanced students WELL who are inexpensive?   I cannot personally name one,  so your personal experience would be great for all of us to here. 

[keypeg]

How many instructors do you know who teach advanced students WELL who are inexpensive?   I cannot personally name one,  so your personal experience would be great for all of us to here. 

I know one who does, and I know of several who are expensive who have come close to ruining students.  I am not sure what to do about "advanced students" because that can be iffy ground.  Many students are brought to advanced grade levels and have been taught dubiously at best.

When you say that my experience would be "great for all of 'you'" this sounds like you are being sarcastic or rhetorical.