Ascending right hand runs

[Rockitman]

Mine are terrible.  I have this horrible stutter at the points the thumb crosses under.  Yes I am aware of this thumb over technique but just can't seem to get the hang of it.  Is thumb over really just a hand shift?
For instance, C major scale, ascending, right hand:  after I play the E with the third finger, am I supposed to just slide/shift over my hand and play the F with the thumb?  I can't for the life of me get it to sound smooth. 
Any tricks or advice would be greatly appreciated.

It's weird though,  my decsending left hand runs don't have nearly the same problem.  Wonder if it's because I'm left handed. 

[pat]

Dear friend,

I encountered the same problem before.  Firstly, I am right handed.  From my experience, it is relatively difficult to control the thumbs cos' it always produces a louder sound compared to others.  To me, it is rather difficult for left-hand.  I think you are the opposite.

The main point is lack of preparation.  Actually, when you are playing the E, you have to make your thumb stand-by on the next note.  In other words, when you play the E, the thumb position should already been on F.  It is not a easy technique cos' the brain is usually slower than the fingers.  What can do is to try to focus on prastising the parts of turning the fingers for thousands of time until your brain gets used to the way of playing.  For instance, ascending E->F / B->C, descending F->E, C->B.

To help with the above practice, sing the note in your heart before playing it.  It leads you think before taking action.  Of course do it slowly at the start.  To be smooth, don't play the note one by one.  Try to treat it as a phrase, play from the beginning until the end, no matter the tempo is fast or slow.

I believe, practice makes perfect.  Good Luck to you!!

[Rockitman]

Hi Pat.  Thanks for the advice.   But this is just standard thumb under advice right?   I've been told this before and you're right,  I probably just need to practice it a "million" times to get the thumb to respond timely.
But I'm more interested in thumb over technique, (which from what I can tell, is a very inaccurate description),  where the awkward thumb under is forsaken especially in faster runs.

[xvimbi]

Hi Pat.  Thanks for the advice.   But this is just standard thumb under advice right?   I've been told this before and you're right,  I probably just need to practice it a "million" times to get the thumb to respond timely.
But I'm more interested in thumb over technique, (which from what I can tell, is a very inaccurate description),  where the awkward thumb under is forsaken especially in faster runs.

I think you are absolutely right. You should go with thumb-over. There is no other way for faster passages anyway. There are many pianists who have never even heard of the thumb-under technique, and I wish it would have been the same with me. Moving the thumb under the palm is a very awkward movement. Then moving it down to strike a key is one of the most unnatural movements ever. When it comes to thumb-under, the best one can do is to rotate the hand such that the thumb, which should be roughly behind finger 2, is being positioned over the key to be played, then lower the entire hand to play the note, rather than lower the thumb at its joint. This motion is similar the other way around too, i.e. when going from the thumb to finger 3 or 4.

Thumb-over has some issues too, but they relate to sound production, not to abusing the human body, e.g., getting a good legato when the passage is rather slow. Practicing the appropriate hand displacement movements will solve this.

[Rockitman]

Man I wish I could just watch somebody demonstrate a good thumb over.
I am only learning about it here and Chang's book, but it does not translate well with a written word.   It seems that one just shifts the hand over to accomplish this but when I do it, it sounds unconnected.  My third finger tends to stacatto hop off the E (C major scale) before I can play the thumb on the F. 

[Brian Healey]

It's funny, I have the same problem. My descending runs are much better (faster and cleaner) in both left and right hands than ascending runs. You would think that the abilities of one hand would be sort of mirrored by the other, but it's not the case. Weird.....


Cheesecake,
Bri

[johnnypiano]

I don't understand what 'thumb over' means.  Would someone please explain to a simple creature?  Thanks.

[anda]

I think you are absolutely right. You should go with thumb-over. There is no other way for faster passages anyway. There are many pianists who have never even heard of the thumb-under technique

i don't think it's possible to play "anything" using thumb-over, but rather choose between thumb-under and thumb-over on a per-case base.

for instance: i think thumb-over is the best technique for fast accurate arppegios, but i prefer thumb-under for scales (that's the way i play).

[anda]

The main point is lack of preparation.  Actually, when you are playing the E, you have to make your thumb stand-by on the next note.  In other words, when you play the E, the thumb position should already been on F. 

that is very true! i noticed the same problem with many of my students. but practicing those 2 notes (i.e. e and f) won't help - the problem arises earlier. best ask your teacher for methods.

[xvimbi]

i don't think it's possible to play "anything" using thumb-over, but rather choose between thumb-under and thumb-over on a per-case base.

for instance: i think thumb-over is the best technique for fast accurate arppegios, but i prefer thumb-under for scales (that's the way i play).

You probably meant that it is not possible to play "everything" thumb-over. Although, I personally use thumb-under or thumb-over, depending on the passage, like you it seems, I have come to witness that it is possible to not use thumb-under at all.

The main point is lack of preparation.  Actually, when you are playing the E, you have to make your thumb stand-by on the next note.  In other words, when you play the E, the thumb position should already been on F. 

Your point is well taken (the importance of preparation, that is), but what you are suggesting is simply impossible. The thumb can't be on F already before finger 3 is playing the E. The contortions that are necessary to achieve this are highly unnatural and, I guarantee, lead to injury in the long run.

[xvimbi]

I don't understand what 'thumb over' means.  Would someone please explain to a simple creature?  Thanks.

The way I like to describe it is the following: In the thumb-under technique, the thumb is moving actively under the palm by bending more or less all its joints. Once under the palm it is supposed to strike a key by moving it downwards.

In the thumb-over technique, the thumb does not take an active role. It remains more or less static relative to the rest of the hand. In practice, if we are looking at the right hand in a perfect and relaxed posture, the thumb never moves much past finger 2 towards the palm. Rather than moving actively to the key it wants to play, the thumb is placed over the appropriate key by hand movements, i.e. the hand is dragging the thumb along; the thumb is never "pushing" the hand. Positioning the thumb over the appropriate key can be done by laterally shifting the hand. This will result in a more or less detached effect, which is perfectly fine for playing legato scales at higher speed. It can also be positioned by rotating the hand while one of the other fingers is still on the key (like I described earlier), thus achieving a true legato without the thumb having to carry out motions it is not designed for (like those found in the thumb-under technique).

[johnnypiano]

Hi! Xvimbi.

Just to thank you for your rapid reply.  I will look at what you say and get back to you.  All the best John   

[ted]

Although I am an improviser rather than a performer I agree with xvimbi. As a child and as a young man I played naturally using thumb over nearly all the time. Then, in my thirties I was a fool and listened to an "expert" who said I should pass my thumbs under. Following that advice resulted in a quite appalling deterioration of  what had been a natural, if highly individual and a bit rough in parts, technique. I have since gone back to the way I used to play and can more or less play any idea which comes to mind again. I have not sought a teacher for over ten years now and work out my own solutions to everything. I don't want a repetition of that episode thank you.