Improving Finger Independance

[adodd81802]

Not exactly the question, but figured it would get the most attention.

4TH/5TH fingers are a little sloppy in clarity of notes.

Question on improving this as there seems to be exercises which have 2 opposite instructions.

One being hold all the fingers down and practice raising the one you're working on and continue (Dohnanyi style)

Or keeping all fingers raised and pressing down the finger you want to play, quickly raising after playing the next note. (Arguably Hanon style)

The first example is more difficult particularly for fingers like 4 which just aren't meant to do that, is this something you can improve or is it just counter productive

The 2nd example is easier, but not as logical in practice for me, you want your fingers low, not all raised, but the argument seems to be it gets in the muscle memory of raising your fingers quickly , even if not as high and improving clarity. If that is the case is there argument for both instructions or different benefits for both?

[brogers70]

I think there are two kinds of finger non-independence. The first is the anatomical kind caused by the shared extensor tendon on the 3rd and 4th fingers. There's really nothing to be done about that. The second is the neurological overlap in which impulses sent to one finger, "bleed over" into the nerves controlling other fingers. That actually can get better with practice over time - you're rewiring your brain a little bit so that the control of individual fingers is better separated. There's not much call for that in most daily activities. Grasp a broom and your fingers mostly all do the same thing. But there's enough neural plasticity to get better control if you practice.

I like exercises by Aloys Schitt for finger independence. The link is below. Lots of the exercises are just variants of Hanon (I'd ignore them) but exercises 34-169 have you holding one or more notes while playing others. Keep everything relaxed, do HS then HT. You'll be surprised how often you think your brain is sending a message to one finger, and it's actually sending it to another. You may have to stare at your hands for many seconds at the beginning to make sure the right fingers actually move. Remember that you are not trying to stretch anything, or build strength; all you are doing is working on your brain's ability to send messages only to the fingers you want. It's addictive, or at least I found it to be so, and helpful. It took me a couple of months before I could reliably do them all HT.

https://pianoexercises.org/exercises/schmitt/schmitt-preparatory-exercises-op-16.pdf

[anamnesis]

Not exactly the question, but figured it would get the most attention.

4TH/5TH fingers are a little sloppy in clarity of notes.

Question on improving this as there seems to be exercises which have 2 opposite instructions.

One being hold all the fingers down and practice raising the one you're working on and continue (Dohnanyi style)

Or keeping all fingers raised and pressing down the finger you want to play, quickly raising after playing the next note. (Arguably Hanon style)

The first example is more difficult particularly for fingers like 4 which just aren't meant to do that, is this something you can improve or is it just counter productive

The 2nd example is easier, but not as logical in practice for me, you want your fingers low, not all raised, but the argument seems to be it gets in the muscle memory of raising your fingers quickly , even if not as high and improving clarity. If that is the case is there argument for both instructions or different benefits for both?

Neither or at least not quite.  

You have to perfectly balance and time 4 and 5 within the context of where you are coming from and where you are going.  

Raising your fingers should be done in the context of forearm rotation (and several other related actions) in terms of how it times the releases with where you are going.

The problem with static exercises is that the common way they are coordinated desensitizes you to an extremely refined sense of balance on the mechanism of the keyboard, which interferes with timing and relating it to the horizontal progression along the keyboard.

Even the CDEFG white key position itself, even not holding down the keys, already messes up an extremely refined balance with any minute sense of maintaining that position.  What's funny is that I've seen articles and videos promoting a similar idea with a "closed position" or neutral position of the hand, but they actually don't go far enough because they often hold the CDEFG as an exemplar!

The articulation you do before 4 or 5 should be done in such away that it sends you on top of 4 or 5, knowing you are balanced and will have full tonal control.  There should be a sense that you have the leverage to do so.  And then the particular articulation you do on 4 and 5 should have the same forward relation to the next note, putting you in the optimal position for it.  

[feddera]

I don't think it has to be either/or with these kinds of exercices. Both can have their place. Josh Wright has some good videos on youtube on how to do the fingerlifting-thing. It did help me in some passages, but I don't use it much.

Here's a good "exercise" for weak 4th/5th fingers:

Place both hands in the CDEFG-position, one octave apart, with each finger resting on the surface of the corresponding key of this 5-finger scale. Set the metronome to 60, and play CDEFGFED etc. up and down with both hands, one note every 4 clicks. Can you do this effortlessly, without lifting or moving any of the non-playing fingers from the key surface, without any rotation, with both hands completely syncronized? If not, try working on that until you can. I've found working on extremely low tempos like this very useful for minimizing superfluous movement, and also for making the weak fingers feel more stable and less sloppy when they play. Try it!

[visitor]

best work i have done for finger independence especially strengthening number 4 is a few selections from the notoriously hard Brahms 51, i set them down for a little while but starting them up again next couple weeks to readdress/review

[adodd81802]

Thanks for your responses.

I am certainly looking at Brahms and a few other similar exercises, the biggest problem I have found with learning the piano mostly by myself is not that I don't know where to improve or how to improve (thanks to the internet) but actually I don't really know where I currently am and there's a massive imbalance of different' technical skills that I possess.

We could have something right, not know it's right, and then make it wrong through fear that we are not achieving our goals. It then puts you in a difficult position of not wanting to practice in case you take steps back, which you ultimately do because you're not practicing anymore!

[visitor]

Thanks for your responses.

I am certainly looking at Brahms and a few other similar exercises, the biggest problem I have ....

I would seriously build the routine around no 16
Bt make sure you nail the rotation down vs just pressing , it csn hurt if you do it wrong

The add in 7, 10  and 11

The above are what i am working and building on this summer to strengthen 4 , firm up 5, and improvd independencd and ease between the
 

[visitor]

I would seriously build the routine around no 16
Bt make sure you nail the rotation down vs just pressing , it csn hurt if you do it wrong

The add in 7, 10  and 11

The above are what i am working and building on this summer to strengthen 4 , firm up 5, and improvd independencd and ease between the
 

Bonus work for fine tuning it all , 18a and 18b

[adodd81802]

Helpful as always. Thanks, I'll go through them. I've never felt injury from exercises, so I'm pretty confident I do them correctly, just too lazy to do enough of them