Gravity

[richardparkokay]

I'm going to go out on a limb and not reply to my other posts right now. But there's a bigger question that concerns me whenever I practice. (By the way, the reasoning for not being able to reply to my other posts is simply the lack of time, and as we all know, school really tackles you harshly at the end of the year) However, this question passes to me as important.

In a couple books I have read regarding piano technique(two books, to be specific) they always seem to discuss the concept of gravity and its importance in piano playing. I'll quote a passage from Chang's book.
"Relaxation in piano is not relaxing all muscles, but relaxing all unnecessary muscles so that the necessary ones can do the job; the necessary ones are frequently asked to work extremely hard. We also need to quickly relax the working muscles as soon as their work is done in order to reduce fatigue and to prevent interference with subsequent movements. This is called rapid relaxation; the relaxation speeds must match the keystroke speeds for the system to work.
...
'how do I know if I am relaxed?' You are relaxed when you can feel gravity pulling on your body and hands. " - p.20-21 Third Edition

So my first question that jumps out already - is this sound information? I just found out a while ago that some people have very mixed views on the book.

Also, if the author says you are relaxed when you feel gravity pulling on your arms, how come I don't feel that when I play?
 I can relax the arms completely, but the gravity pull on the arms makes the keys sound very loud - and I mean strident, harsh, something of that sort. My fingers feel like they're pressing down with a considerable amount of unnecessary pressure caused by the gravity.
I am always supposed to feel gravity bear down on my arms? Even with staccato? Arm staccato? So many questions. But I must head to sleep. Thanks for reading!

[hardy_practice]

If it's not in his first edition he probably got it here - he used to post.  And he is right.   You do need a very subtle nervous system though.

[keypeg]

The trouble with all these written descriptions is that they are written descriptions.  It can mess you up.  You try to imagine what they meant, and act on what you imagine, and who knows what will happen?

Here's a bit from my own journey.  I was studying another instrument as an adult, and learned things about "relaxed arms hanging from the shoulders", "arm weight", and gravity. So I had these limp, hanging arms, as dead weights - transferred that to the piano when I got back to piano and it didn't work well there either.  Then started to hear from people playing both instruments who had been messed up by the "relaxation craze" a bit over a decade ago.  For heavens sake, get a decent teacher or somebody who knows what they are doing, to observe and work with you!

Here's another one, that we just figured out.  When I restarted piano before having a teacher I came upon a video of a teacher who demonstrated by suspending her young student's wrist in a kind of rubber sling, so that she would have a totally relaxed arm sort of hanging from this wrist.  It seems I internalized that image.  Recently we were trying to get at the bottom of something not working right with my playing and something clued me in on this old "loose hanging arm" and the wrist-sling thing - we altered it.  Shortly after I happened on the old video.  There was another by the same teacher, where she lectured other teachers, showing about 5 principles of playing, and some teaching gadgets.  The sling thing was one.  But she also stated how she was against the idea of the loose, hanging arm, and said it should be more like an arm floating when you stand in a swimming pool. .... (continued, next).

I watched the old video again, and saw lots of conflicts as the lesson went on.  The girl let her arm hang nicely from the sling, which gives a feeling of the wrist lifting the arm, and the wrist gets an arch.  A minute later, when she is slingless, teacher corrects her because of the arched wrist (as per sling) and so the girl uses her muscles to lift her arm, as she must.  They move to the left hand - where she is lifting her arm, and is reminded of the sling-thing, so she does the relaxed arm thing, at which point, predictably, she ends up with the arched wrist.  What I saw was pretty well a duplicate of the war that I had battled the day when we tried to figure out what was going wrong with my technique.

In other words, what gets presented can be gotten wrong.  Also, playing is complex, in the way that walking is complex.   To be described, it gets deconstructed and simplified, and then we get something that is not real, and try to do that.  Anything you read about is and isn't; isn't and is - because it is part of "something more".

[adodd81802]

The trouble with all these written descriptions is that they are written descriptions.  It can mess you up.  You try to imagine what they meant, and act on what you imagine, and who knows what will happen?

This sums up every issue with every theory book ever made on a practical activity. Well put.

A theory book in my opinion is almost simply a reference that could be used by a teacher that already knows what the theory is explaining and then knows how to SHOW that to a student.

[timothy42b]

This sums up every issue with every theory book ever made on a practical activity. Well put.

IMO it is more than that.

The gravity drop is a mental image, not a description of the actual physics involved.  If you don't believe me, do the math. 

That's why keypeg's description of the process is so apt.  I just wanted to make it explicit.

We use mental images, metaphors, as a short hand to get students to do a process correctly.  Unfortunately these metaphors do not have universal meanings to all students, and they are sometimes at odds with the actual mechanics.  They do work for a large percentage of students, and fail utterly for some. 

A classic example is that some wind instrument teachers will tell you to "blow warm air."  A thermometer would instantly tell you that 1 it's not possible and 2 they're not doing it.  But, for some students, the image helps them do something right with air flow. 

[georgey]

.

[hardy_practice]

So gravity is not actual physics?  Hmm.

[keypeg]

A theory book in my opinion is almost simply a reference that could be used by a teacher that already knows what the theory is explaining and then knows how to SHOW that to a student.

And even there, choose your teacher with caution! 

[richardparkokay]

get a decent teacher or somebody who knows what they are doing, to observe and work with you!

I hear this a lot from people in the forums, and you guys do seem correct - my teacher doesn't seem to tell me a lot about the more advanced workings of playing the piano. For instance, I asked her why I felt pain when I play, and she told me it just happens when you practice a lot. (The pain has went away so that proves that it was a technical mistake of mine!) My teacher is recognized as proficient in her profession in the state. Our state does not have a very neat education system, both for school and music. She is probably my best option, because I am also in a financial situation. Also, my mother won't change teachers for me.  (don't think I can persuade my mother to get a new teacher anyway, I tried that decades ago!)

See, for this reason I try to learn from books - to gain knowledge about the piano. Sometimes I get a little sad because there is not a single concert pianist who was self-taught for the most part. It tells me that a good teacher apparently is essential to playing well unless you're a genius. I could go on and mope, but really, I am not here to do that. I am here to ask questions!

The gravity drop is a mental image, not a description of the actual physics involved.  If you don't believe me, do the math. 

So wait. The gravity drop you are talking about is the pull of gravity on my arm? And that should be a mental image? Quite confused - sorry about that!

I have an additional question : so when you guys play, you guys always feel the pull? I don't feel the pull when I play, I just try to relax my shoulders and go on.

[louispodesta]

The trouble with all these written descriptions is that they are written descriptions.  It can mess you up.  You try to imagine what they meant, and act on what you imagine, and who knows what will happen?

Here's a bit from my own journey.  I was studying another instrument as an adult, and learned things about "relaxed arms hanging from the shoulders", "arm weight", and gravity. So I had these limp, hanging arms, as dead weights - transferred that to the piano when I got back to piano and it didn't work well there either.  Then started to hear from people playing both instruments who had been messed up by the "relaxation craze" a bit over a decade ago.  For heavens sake, get a decent teacher or somebody who knows what they are doing, to observe and work with you!

Here's another one, that we just figured out.  When I restarted piano before having a teacher I came upon a video of a teacher who demonstrated by suspending her young student's wrist in a kind of rubber sling, so that she would have a totally relaxed arm sort of hanging from this wrist.  It seems I internalized that image.  Recently we were trying to get at the bottom of something not working right with my playing and something clued me in on this old "loose hanging arm" and the wrist-sling thing - we altered it.  Shortly after I happened on the old video.  There was another by the same teacher, where she lectured other teachers, showing about 5 principles of playing, and some teaching gadgets.  The sling thing was one.  But she also stated how she was against the idea of the loose, hanging arm, and said it should be more like an arm floating when you stand in a swimming pool. .... (continued, next).

I watched the old video again, and saw lots of conflicts as the lesson went on.  The girl let her arm hang nicely from the sling, which gives a feeling of the wrist lifting the arm, and the wrist gets an arch.  A minute later, when she is slingless, teacher corrects her because of the arched wrist (as per sling) and so the girl uses her muscles to lift her arm, as she must.  They move to the left hand - where she is lifting her arm, and is reminded of the sling-thing, so she does the relaxed arm thing, at which point, predictably, she ends up with the arched wrist.  What I saw was pretty well a duplicate of the war that I had battled the day when we tried to figure out what was going wrong with my technique.

In other words, what gets presented can be gotten wrong.  Also, playing is complex, in the way that walking is complex.   To be described, it gets deconstructed and simplified, and then we get something that is not real, and try to do that.  Anything you read about is and isn't; isn't and is - because it is part of "something more".

What Keypeg is too polite to say, (but as an ASPY Philosopher, I am not), is that the current trend on this website is that you can learn to play the piano with an iPad, Laptop, or Desktop Computer.  You do not need an actual teacher.

Specifically, the physical concept of arm weight, hand weight (and separate combinations of both), have to be taught by actual physical contact with a piano teacher, in my opinion.

My current (DMA) Concerto Coach is teaching me just this concept as it pertains to "group note" slow practice.  And, with all my years at the piano, it is taking me awhile to translate this concept to my entire repertoire (solo as well).

Therefore, "Keypeg's" questioning of some so-called written wisdom in regards "Gravity", is well on point.  That is:  there is a very big difference between the logic of simple and simplistic, which is what the OP's interrogatory states in regards basic piano technique.

[timothy42b]

Most people would agree the "gravity drop" is a mental image students find useful in achieving a relaxed coordinated motion.

however this study
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51469651_Rate_Effects_on_Timing_Key_Velocity_and_Finger_Kinematics_in_Piano_Performance
does not seem to support that with physics. 

[keypeg]

What Keypeg is too polite to say, (but as an ASPY Philosopher, I am not), is that the current trend on this website is that you can learn to play the piano with an iPad, Laptop, or Desktop Computer.  You do not need an actual teacher.

Perhaps I have lost my politeness.  I did not say anything of the kind, implied or otherwise.  If by learning "with" a computer means working with (a) teacher(s) over Skype and by watching, reading, and understanding - that is precisely what I am doing.  And the first damage I experienced happened in in-studio lessons.
In regards to "trends".  The "trend" 30 years ago was that unless you lived in the right place and knew the right people and had money, you were screwed as far as wanting to learn anything.  There were no opportunities.  There was no information.  The good old days was a pile of nothing unless you were lucky.  We now have the opportunity to avail ourselves of information, and it would be foolish not to avail ourselves of it.  Of course when there is wealth, one must acquire discernment, just like instant millionaires can ruin themselves through their inexperience.  If you intend to say that we must be careful about what we read and see, I agree wholeheartedly.

[hardy_practice]

Most people would agree the "gravity drop" is a mental image students find useful in achieving a relaxed coordinated motion.

however this study
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51469651_Rate_Effects_on_Timing_Key_Velocity_and_Finger_Kinematics_in_Piano_Performance
does not seem to support that with physics. 

I read the abstract, it didn't mention arm-weight at all.

[timothy42b]

I read the abstract, it didn't mention arm-weight at all.

Look at the graphs.  The finger acceleration is less than half that of gravity (9.8 m/s^2). 

[timothy42b]

Hmm.  Come to think of it, that paper could actually support the opposite of what I thought.

[hardy_practice]

Using gravity involves being sensitive to the weight of your arm not fingers though in the past some 'systems' have claimed otherwise.  It's not about how fast something falls but that it falls at all.

[timothy42b]

Using gravity involves being sensitive to the weight of your arm not fingers though in the past some 'systems' have claimed otherwise.  It's not about how fast something falls but that it falls at all.

Thinking out loud.

If you do not exert some muscular force upwards, your arm will fall to your side.

If you relax the upward muscles, and there is not much tension in the lowering muscles, your arm will fall.  I think the idea of the gravity drop is largely to minimize the tension in the lowering muscles.

This is not on or off, IMO.  Your arm can drop slowly or quickly.  Control of that is difficult.  So probably in the beginning stages we override the not-relaxed-enough-upward muscles with a little force from the lowering muscles.  Adding force to a muscle is much much much faster than reducing it. 

The maximum speed your arm can drop is when there is no force from the upward muscles.  Is that speed sufficient for all playing?  I very much doubt it, particularly in soft playing where the drop isn't from very high.  When you see skilled players playing rapidly, you see their arms barely moving up and down.  I think they are using controlled force in both directions. 

[hardy_practice]

You can make it up as you go along or you could do some research.  I recommend Schutz and Matthay for that.

The idea you only use arm-weight is bogus.  It needs to be sensed, it needs to be utilized, but it's not the whole story.

[keypeg]

... but it's not the whole story.

Putting it mildly. 

[georgey]

I'm going to go out on a limb and not reply to my other posts right now. But there's a bigger question that concerns me whenever I practice. (By the way, the reasoning for not being able to reply to my other posts is simply the lack of time, and as we all know, school really tackles you harshly at the end of the year) However, this question passes to me as important.

In a couple books I have read regarding piano technique(two books, to be specific) they always seem to discuss the concept of gravity and its importance in piano playing. I'll quote a passage from Chang's book.
"Relaxation in piano is not relaxing all muscles, but relaxing all unnecessary muscles so that the necessary ones can do the job; the necessary ones are frequently asked to work extremely hard. We also need to quickly relax the working muscles as soon as their work is done in order to reduce fatigue and to prevent interference with subsequent movements. This is called rapid relaxation; the relaxation speeds must match the keystroke speeds for the system to work.
...
'how do I know if I am relaxed?' You are relaxed when you can feel gravity pulling on your body and hands. " - p.20-21 Third Edition

So my first question that jumps out already - is this sound information? I just found out a while ago that some people have very mixed views on the book.

Also, if the author says you are relaxed when you feel gravity pulling on your arms, how come I don't feel that when I play?
 I can relax the arms completely, but the gravity pull on the arms makes the keys sound very loud - and I mean strident, harsh, something of that sort. My fingers feel like they're pressing down with a considerable amount of unnecessary pressure caused by the gravity.
I am always supposed to feel gravity bear down on my arms? Even with staccato? Arm staccato? So many questions. But I must head to sleep. Thanks for reading!

I took a little time and read the original post this time.  Here are my thoughts.  

I am now holding my left arm in front of me at about shoulder height with palm facing down.  My hand and fingers and forearm and upper arm are all in a straight line.  There are 6 joints to look at here:  1) Shoulder, 2) elbow, 3) wrist, 4) knuckle, 5) middle finger joint and 6) finger joint closest to the fingertip.

Playing around with relaxation, I am noticing there are 3 joints mainly in play with my arm and hand held straight in front of me, palm down as described above.  1) Shoulder, 2) wrist and 3) knuckle..  If I COMPLETELY relax any of these 3 joints, the joint collapses due to the force of gravity.  

If I relax my wrist completely, for example, the wrist hand falls down.  I’ll call this “completely relaxed wrist”. I can also stiffen my wrist so not only does the hand not go down due to gravity, it does not go down even if someone pushes down on it with force.  I’ll call this “stiff wrist”.

Here now are my thoughts on what I think the author meant by “feel gravity pulling” taken from p.20-21 Third Edition “how do I know if I am relaxed?' You are relaxed when you can feel gravity pulling on your body and hands.”

I start with my straight arm in front of me, palm down as described above with a “stiff wrist” then I start to relax my wrist gradually.  At the stiffest point, it may take 30 pounds of pressure force by someone pressing down on my wrist hand to force the wrist to collapse.  As I relax the wrist more and more, the amount of pressure force needed to force my wrist to collapse drops to 20 pounds then 10 pounds.  Finally I get to the POINT OF EQUALIBRIUM where my wrist is relaxed to the point where only 1/1000th pounds are needed to collapse my wrist. This is the point where I feel gravity pulling:  at the point of equilibrium.  Note that my wrist is not falling.  If I were to relax any further, the wrist would start to fall.

[hardy_practice]

Nicely put.  That feeing of minimal holding can often be confused with tension.  The more you feel the denseness of the body the more unnerving it is.   Look away if you have a weak constitution - to feel your hand as a slab of meat lying on the keyboard is weird.

[louispodesta]

Perhaps I have lost my politeness.  I did not say anything of the kind, implied or otherwise.  If by learning "with" a computer means working with (a) teacher(s) over Skype and by watching, reading, and understanding - that is precisely what I am doing.  And the first damage I experienced happened in in-studio lessons.
In regards to "trends".  The "trend" 30 years ago was that unless you lived in the right place and knew the right people and had money, you were screwed as far as wanting to learn anything.  There were no opportunities.  There was no information.  The good old days was a pile of nothing unless you were lucky.  We now have the opportunity to avail ourselves of information, and it would be foolish not to avail ourselves of it.  Of course when there is wealth, one must acquire discernment, just like instant millionaires can ruin themselves through their inexperience.  If you intend to say that we must be careful about what we read and see, I agree wholeheartedly.

Dear "Keypeg":

I was not allowed to practice in my own house as and adult, when my mother was present.  Accordingly, I could not practice on this exquisite 1949 Baldwin Baby Grand manufucatured in their factory in Cincinnati Ohio, which was my late father's birthplace.

Therefore, as an adult, I had to take the City Bus Downtown to the Junior College where my late teacher's Studio was located (and it took an hour, each way).

In that it was after hours, the Janitor had to sneak me in so I could practice for two hours.  After that, I had to Hitchhike home (at night!) because the Buses were always running late.  For the record, this teacher taught me "for free" for fifteen years! 

That is why I have a "Singing Tone" because Robert Weaver taught me how to do it!

Many teachers throughout the years have also done the same.  For the record, Earl Wild (Memoir) never charged a penny for any of his 50 plus years Master Classes at Carnegie Mellon University.

2)  This current BS about "Gravity," is no more than a simplistic address to what my current Concerto Coach takes an immense amount of time to school me on.  That it is a combination of arm, hand, and (Thomas Mark) upper and lower "Body Mapping."

And "Keypeg," it most certainly does take a significant amount of personal time with a highly qualified teacher to effectuate this concept from the abstract to the concrete.

[timothy42b]

Therefore, as an adult, I had to take the City Bus Downtown to the Junior College where my late teacher's Studio was located (and it took an hour, each way).

Wow, an hour each way, no wonder your teacher was late.

[keypeg]

Dear Louis, I'm familiar with your story because you have told it before.  It has nothing to do with what I wrote.  There is nothing wrong with people being able to find information, when there was a time when no information was available.
Not that it mattered, but at the same age there were no buses (literally) where I was, and nobody to take a bus to from whom one might learn, had there been one.  Had there been the Internet and the richness of resources that exist now, there is much that I could have learned while in such isolation.
What bothers me is the apparent hostility toward people who are trying to learn - unless I am misunderstanding what you are projecting.

[louispodesta]

Your situation is unique, but in no way is it the normal matriculation for most of the world's pianists.  Nevertheless, you have my high compliments to what you have achieved with your limited means.

 does not mean that one who has the ability to access a decent piano and an associated teacher, should TOTALLY ignore private instruction and accordingly seek their very well-intentioned answers from the Internet.

Can one have both?  In terms of serious progress associated with serious instruction, the answer, in my opinion, is no!

Between Thomas Mark and my new Concerto Coach, I have advanced "Light Years," in term of my playing at the piano.  And, after 65 years, I think I would know the difference.

[louispodesta]

Please ignore the prior post.  The corrected Post is to follow

[louispodesta]

Your situation is unique, but in no way is it the normal matriculation for most of the world's pianists.  Nevertheless, you have my high compliments to what you have achieved with your limited means.

However, it does not mean that one who has the ability to access a decent piano and an associated teacher, should TOTALLY ignore private instruction and accordingly seek their very well-intentioned answers from the Internet.

Can one have both?  In terms of serious progress associated with serious instruction, the answer, in my opinion, is no!

Between Thomas Mark and my new Concerto Coach, I have advanced "Light Years," in term of my playing at the piano.  And, after 65 years, I think I would know the difference.
 

 
 
 

[keypeg]

Your situation is unique, ...

My past situation is anything but unique.  There are many variations of such situations.

....but in no way is it the normal matriculation for most of the world's pianists. 

We are not discussing "the world's pianists", by which I assume you mean the few people who end up being known and perhaps more or less famous.  The world is full of people who want to learn to play an instrument, etc.  These people are in all kinds of places and situations.  Those who do want to learn to play an instrument also do not necessarily have the ambition to become one of the world's pianists, though some might.
I can tell you from experience that it is a pretty good idea to get information before even trying to sign up with a teacher, because of what can go wrong, which you won't know is wrong, because of said lack of information and experience.  At the first stages you may ask the wrong questions, and seek the wrong things, for the fact of that not knowing.  Such people should be guided, encouraged, and not belittled or judged.  At one time it could have been me.

However, it does not mean that one who has the ability to access a decent piano and an associated teacher, should TOTALLY ignore private instruction and accordingly seek their very well-intentioned answers from the Internet.

There is no question of anyone doing any of those things.  However, there may be a question of judging others, and making assumptions about them.  We do not know about anyone else.  There is no harm in helping.  There may be harm in driving people who need help underground.

Between Thomas Mark and my new Concerto Coach, I have advanced "Light Years," in term of my playing at the piano.  And, after 65 years, I think I would know the difference.

I congratulate you on having found good instruction in this confusing world.  I feel fortunate by the same token.  However neither your good fortune nor mine has anything to do with someone asking questions in a forum.  Again, at one time it could have been me.  The only way to get out of confusion can be by starting to ask questions, whether stupid seeming or on the mark, without being judged.
 

 
 
 

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