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Topic: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?  (Read 8854 times)

Offline maplecleff1215

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How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
on: June 06, 2017, 05:46:12 PM
I'm looking back at "Ballade" and "Arabesque" (Burgmüller) again, both of which have fairly fast tempos, and I'm still having trouble with keeping the 16th note sections even. I can play them fine slow, but when I try to bring them up to speed, I end up accidentally "swinging" them, kind of in a jazz/blues way. What techniques or exercises can I use to get the notes even? Should I be using just my fingers or trying to incorporate the whole hand into it? I can play the rest of the pieces just fine; it's just those 16th note sections.
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Offline mjames

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 10:41:13 PM
Practice it with a metronome. If your rhythm messes up in faster tempi it usually means that you're messing it up in slower tempi as well, it's just that it's harder to notice when you're practicing it slowly.
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Offline adodd81802

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #2 on: June 07, 2017, 08:21:38 AM
Another method I have seen advised, is play at a variety of different rhythms, to essentially break the rhythm you keep practicing in.

If you feel you're playing in a rhythm, this may just be coincidental and misleading to the underlying issue that you're losing control of your fingers at a higher speed, as pointed out, working slower speeds with a metronome even just repeating and isolating the problem fingers should help you out.

This is not an instafix, unfortunately, so don't expect to do some exercises one evening and problem is sorted the next day!
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 04:57:27 PM
Yes, using rhythms will help. Metronome practice only helps so much, I've found.

The bigger issue to hear where you're messing up and isolate the smallest possible problem. You might be messing up in one bar, but isolate the individual sections of the bar down to the smallest possible denominator. "I'm messing up on the connection between these two phrases" is a much more approachable problem than "this measure is impossible for me".

Good luck! Clean 16ths is something we all struggle with (unless you're just a technical god, which I certainly am not).
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Offline visitor

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #4 on: June 09, 2017, 11:23:42 AM
I have had success w working passages by specifically practicing them in sorta swing style then reversed that is treat each two sixteenths in a passage as dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth, then reverse it a d practice them as sixteenths followed by dotted eight, work up passages slowly w the french method ie very slow metronome marker increases and then at faster tempi go back to even 16ths, fixes it most of the time for me
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Offline timothy42b

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #5 on: June 09, 2017, 12:33:22 PM
Quote from: mjames on June 06, 2017, 10:41:13 PM
Practice it with a metronome. If your rhythm messes up in faster tempi it usually means that you're messing it up in slower tempi as well, it's just that it's harder to notice when you're practicing it slowly.

Yes. 

But this also points out an inherent danger.

What you're doing at slow tempo doesn't work at fast.  Therefore, you're doing it wrong.

So if you continue to practice at slow tempo without figuring out WHAT you're doing wrong, you will make it permanent.  Practice makes permanent, not perfect.  This is how speed walls are built.

You will have to do some experimentation at fast tempos but in smaller sections to fix this. 
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Tim

Offline maplecleff1215

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: timothy42b on June 09, 2017, 12:33:22 PM
Yes.  

But this also points out an inherent danger.

What you're doing at slow tempo doesn't work at fast.  Therefore, you're doing it wrong.

So if you continue to practice at slow tempo without figuring out WHAT you're doing wrong, you will make it permanent.  Practice makes permanent, not perfect.  This is how speed walls are built.

You will have to do some experimentation at fast tempos but in smaller sections to fix this.  

I thought about this. I can play them fine slow, but once I speed it up, I can't get my fingers to cooperate evenly like I want them to. And the left hand seems to have more problems with this than the right. Maybe it's a dexterity problem?
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Offline anamnesis

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #7 on: June 09, 2017, 06:57:09 PM
Quote from: maplecleff1215 on June 09, 2017, 06:36:13 PM
I thought about this. I can play them fine slow, but once I speed it up, I can't get my fingers to cooperate evenly like I want them too. And the left hand seems to have more problems with this than the right. Maybe it's a dexterity problem?

See here and the follow-up links:

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6bzr22/are_trills_effective_finger_exercises/

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/6d2m1z/a_great_practicing_technique_to_fast_passages

It's  a matter of learning how to "space" notes, which is timing not based just on articulation, but the sensations and actions  that happen "between" individual articulations as well as larger, hierarchical gestures corresponding to longer time spans that "absorb" smaller ones. 
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Offline brogers70

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Re: How to play 16th notes evenly at a fast tempo?
Reply #8 on: June 10, 2017, 12:03:43 AM
You might want to try video recording yourself trying to play them at a fast tempo. Then watch it at half speed and look carefully at what's happening when the 16ths are irregular. Maybe your wrist isn't swiveling to keep each finger lined up with the keys and so they are reaching at difficult angles, maybe you are overholding some notes and delaying the following one, maybe you are rushing through a note just before a difficult stretch. Any of those things could make your 16ths irregular and it's sometimes easier to see on a recording than to try to notice it while you are playing.
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