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Anyone seen the movie Whiplash? (Read 1684 times)

Offline Bob

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Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
« on: June 16, 2017, 04:42:19 PM »
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2582802/

I haven't finished watching it but some of it is spot on...
Minus the racist, sexist, etc. words used, the verbal abuse and pressure is real world.
Director's motivations possibly.
The guy's decision with the girl he was seeing.


A few things that were off...
The director's movement.
Definitely the strain and blood in the performance/practice.  That was ridiculous.  You just get injured and parts don't work right anymore.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline mjames

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 08:26:57 PM »
NOT MY *** TEMPO

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 09:00:19 PM »
Relevant:

Jazz Ambassador 8)

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #3 on: June 16, 2017, 11:04:34 PM »
Finished it.  Interesting movie.

I think it does capture something in terms of determination in music practicing.  And the honest, no bullshit approach that clarifies things.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline toughbo

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 11:12:00 AM »
One of the best movies I've seen.
I remember getting up and cheering after seeing it, I don't think I've done that before :)

Offline keypeg

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 02:33:48 PM »
I heard about it from my teacher, who was incensed.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 02:58:09 PM »
I think it does capture something in terms of determination in music practicing.  And the honest, no bullshit approach that clarifies things.
From the clip I just saw, it seems to capture how some students manage to succeed despite the undermining of delusional characters who think hysterical bullying is teaching, and can't figure out that lack of clarity does bugger all.  Having seen the clip, I can understand why my teacher was outraged and disturbed by it.  Unfortunately sometimes one must deal with incompetence in a position of authority.

I'm reminded of a real story.  There was a young woman, a high school senior, who used to practice violin, which one could sometimes hear coming through her window.  At some point there was suddenly a whole added level to the playing, just wonderful, and it stayed.  So here's the story.  When she moved into our area she had gotten a teacher that was supposedly "good". That teacher undermined her every lesson, telling her she was worthless, would never rise above last chair professionally, was a failure etc.  She cried herself to sleep after every lesson, and it did nothing "for" her, this nonsense.  Some other students told an old teacher about her, and that teacher phoned her up, offering to teach her.  She started studying with that teacher, who actually TAUGHT her things, and this is when her playing soared to new heights and stayed that way.

Worst scenario in the movie if it were real is the student getting Stockholm syndrome and actually being grateful to this idiot.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 03:31:14 PM »
And the honest, no bullshit approach that clarifies things.
What clarity?  In the clip he never defines what he wants, and never states precisely what is wrong.  It is one long guessing game.  The purpose of the whole one-sided exchange is to undermine, and to emotionally crush the student; this is emotional - there is no clarity.  Is there anything less precise than to liken a male teen to a nine-year old girl?  Did the young man have a sex change and hormone therapy, or what's up with that? 
It is ALL bullshit.  Well actually, it's not an approach.  It's just somebody yelling and hitting.

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 03:43:30 PM »
I heard about it from my teacher, who was incensed.

Incensed about what?  There is the racist, etc. angle.  He's just super clear, in-your-face about what is/isn't. But it did sound honest.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #9 on: June 17, 2017, 03:53:26 PM »
I have run into or had several teachers who were like that.  Not quite as intense/in-your-face.  I'm thinking more directors.  They could produce the same effect from the podium.  Nothing racist, etc. or at least not obviously.  Leaving out the group-ism for general society, there is still a type of insult possible that's "allowed."  Even in this clip, he mentions "big boy tempo."  That idea.  Back on the racist/sexist side, it would possible to make a comment where people generally know what you mean, but still leaving wiggle room, like when he says, "Let's see how you got into the ensemble."


One oddball part was being able to change group members at will.  For everything I've seen for college/university groups it's always a course and you're in it for the whole semester. 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline mjames

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #10 on: June 17, 2017, 10:32:45 PM »



for keypeg

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #11 on: June 18, 2017, 12:48:51 AM »
Aye man some of that sh*t isn't too far off from the real world

I've heard stories about the voice faculty at my old school and it's pretty bad


HOWEVER...

I WISH MY TEACHER WOULD THROW A *** CYMBAL AT ME!  I'd throw that sh*t  right back at him!  You wanna talk about my parents and yell at me then square up and throw them hands what's good! >:(
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #12 on: June 18, 2017, 12:20:46 PM »
Weird.  There's something different about the youtube videos.  I've got Whiplash on disc now.  I think youtube is speed up slightly, doesn't have all frames, and the pitch is slightly higher.  It is a slightly different effect when the voice isn't as solid and the pauses aren't as long. 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline keypeg

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #14 on: June 18, 2017, 04:11:59 PM »
for keypeg
What point are you trying to make?

This is fiction, the scene is scripted, so it's not real.  Supposing it was real.  The young man finally answers to the question "Are you out of tune?" with "Yes."  Did he hear he was out of tune and said yes?  Or did he figure out what answer this jerk wanted?

I don't know if you were ever taught by a power-loving teacher that plays mind games for that purpose, and if so, you managed to remain unscarred.  I did have that happen to me for a period.  The irony is that I had to spend a fair amount of time undoing what I had learned, because additionally, it was wrong and outdated!    The teacher I have been with for a number of years needed time and effort to undo the emotional impact.  I was overly attentive.  The first time we ever got together, I blanked out in a fear reaction even though I knew and trusted him.

Please don't ask me to watch any more things of this nature.  It's upsetting on all levels, including as a teacher who knows something about teaching.  I'm going for a long and brisk walk!

What point were you trying to make, btw?  :)

Offline keypeg

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #15 on: June 18, 2017, 04:14:35 PM »
Aye man some of that sh*t isn't too far off from the real world

I've heard stories about the voice faculty at my old school and it's pretty bad
I've heard stories too.

I'm thinking that there are two views.  One can be to understand the ugly side of the music industry.  In that case, kudoz.  But what I think it's supposed to do is to show "good teaching", and if that's the case, it is extremely harmful and that is what disturbs me the most.

Offline mjames

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #16 on: June 18, 2017, 04:32:02 PM »
What point were you trying to make, btw?  :)

I just wanted you to watch the scene!!! ;( ;( ;(

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 08:21:42 PM »
The competition angle seemed a little bogus too.  I don't remember hearing anything college or high school level really being concerned with winning a competition except for marching band or drum corp.  I have seen concern about participating in a festival.  Even then it doesn't hugely change anyone's opinion of the organization unless something becomes consistent.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #18 on: June 18, 2017, 08:41:20 PM »
I've seen or had the teachers.  About the power play thing.  You can even see it in the first seen.  When I watched that I was thinking I might tell the guy I was practicing (I'd probably continue practicing if he walked in), and then tell him I understood he was trying to do some kind of Yoda thing and my response really wouldn't change what he was doing much and ask what he wanted.


For the tuning scene, I think the same effect could be pulled off without the racist/sexist/etc. wording...
Director: Are you in tune?
Student:  ...
Director:  Don't you know?  Don't you think you should know?  You can't tell me if you're in tune or not?  Do you think you should be here if you can't tell if you're in tune?

Followed by "How do you get in here?"  "Who let you in here?"  Something like that.  I would think the same belittling could happen without being in your face.  It's done in front of an ensemble too so there's the social aspect there along with the fear in others that they might be called out for something.


What the student could say (because it's pretty vague asking, 'Are you in tune?') is that his instrument was in tune and at x, y, and z spot he was listening down and was in tune.

Tuning's a whole ensemble effort though.  That guy was a trombone (4th chair?, not that it would matter so much I think) so if he's the lowest note he's only got himself for other notes for reference pitches.  Everyone would be adjusting to him, being the lowest note.


The director's setting himself up for criticism though.  His speaking and hand gestures are a little out of sync with each other  ("jazz" conducting, not classical).  It doesn't look that precise for hand gestures.  And.... I don't know where gets the 5, 6, 7, 8 from except dance maybe (the actor thinking that, that is) but for conducting you don't need to give a full measure to cue an ensemble in.  It's redundant.  Too much.  You only need beat.  This guy is so specific with measure numbers, why is he that sloppy (or that nice?) with giving a full measure to come in?  It's also training his ensemble to be a little less ready.  All he needs to give is 4-1 (or breath-1) to cue them in.  His speaking could be more rythmic to help them in too.  I thought for a bit he might be doing the director thing where not everyone comes in so the director stops the ensemble multiple times and cues them all in so they all breath and attack together.  He does seem concerned about the tempo though.  You'd think though, considering he makes them stay there for apparently hours, that he'd realize it's him for the tempo matching thing and not the ensemble.  He's got ~10 people all very alert and waiting, but none of them match his tempo for hours and hours?  But it could be another power move, or it could be training the ensemble (esp. rhythm section) to be that precise for honing in on the very exact tempo the director is giving.  (He should just be doing a better job giving them the tempo.)  He does seem really concerned about "perfect tempo" in a few parts where he expects the percussionists to be able to play at a very specific tempo on the fly.

The New Yorker article had some interesting points -- No mention of studying theory, music history, listening, improvising, etc.  For the tempo issue again, none of the student were or had taken conducting lessons?  If he's going to attack the ensemble, wouldn't someone also be up front with him and tell him he needs to cue them in better?





Haha...




For tempo scene, I'm actually surprised he says 'all good,' except to let them know.... It's not a big deal?  He also tells them (gives them the answer) that they're rushing.  Why not stop and ask the group why he stopped them?  Even in this clip he starts to clap.  I thought he was going to clap and force them to keep his beat but he doesn't carry on with that.  I've seen director's (did it myself) clap when the group isn't in time and they're out of idea.  Just force them in time by clapping.  
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #19 on: June 18, 2017, 08:52:52 PM »
Here's another spoof.



5-4f12-83a3-12053ffa461c


I like the Mars bar part.  8)
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #20 on: July 03, 2018, 12:16:33 AM »


Not blank.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline minor9th

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #21 on: October 07, 2018, 05:34:12 PM »
I enjoyed it very much..Simmons is amazing. My only quibble is there is not enough explanation for why he is so hard on the students. Is he simply a sadist? A failed musician who deeply cares? Mommy/daddy issues?

Well, I guess my other quibble is he would be fired, if not arrested, if he treated students that way in our snowflake world today.

Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #22 on: October 07, 2018, 10:21:34 PM »
this is some old  school idea of don't spare the rod.. I remember humiliation used in group ensembles, manytimes reducing the student to tears... which never did engender a better performance, or understanding.. I dont think being slapped would help me play better... and having been a teacher for 30 years, i can say, (regardless of the morality of violence), that this method doesn't work..  But, this film, (though i resisted to even give it the time of day), if there is something to be redeemed, it is a character study, of a lineage of 'thought' passed down (decrepid as it is) about how to effectively 'teach' music..  abusively. 
So, it goes. (luckily this is less and less the norm)
4'33"

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #23 on: November 26, 2018, 12:47:23 PM »
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: Anyone seen the movie Whiplash?
«Reply #24 on: November 27, 2018, 12:14:19 AM »
Whoa.  It's live right now.


Adam Neely's youtube channel

mentioned this in the live session
http://www.youtube.com/user/NolteFam/videos
Amie Nolte's youtube channel
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."