Questions for people who have learned Beethoven's Op. 106

[nw746]

This is not necessarily a piece I plan to learn at the moment—it's probably beyond my level. But since it contains many of the difficult things I need to learn (scales, arpeggios, leaps, broken and unbroken octaves, counterpoint, very quick passages using only the 3rd/4th/5th fingers) I play through parts of it and practice them in the hope of gaining at least a little of the knowledge for how to do whatever technique.

However there are some things that I simply can't figure out how to play at speed at all, no matter how much I practice them. Playing them slowly doesn't seem to translate into being able to play them at the right tempo. I'm just wondering how other people were able to do them.

(the right tempo meaning: whatever Beethoven's metronome mark says, which I realise many people disagree with, but I'd rather not get into that argument)


In this passage, my right hand is physically unable to play the chord Bb-D-C due to the stretch of a seventh between the 2nd and 5th fingers (the ninth is also one of the most difficult for my hand alongside Eb-F, E-F# and B-C#). I break the chord instead. However I also almost always miss notes in the two following chords Bb-Eb-A and Bb-D-F because of the rapid shifts in vertical hand position and that I have to play the white keys closer to the keyboard lid where it is a bit of an obstacle course with the black keys on all sides. I can play everything here (except the ninth) at slower tempi of e.g. minim = 116 or below but can't figure out how to maintain accuracy at faster tempi, and I can't figure out how to convince my hand to make that stretch at all.


In the sections marked in red Schenker's fingering does not seem usable, or at least I can't play the sixths evenly and legato if I use my thumb on every note. I have substituted in every case 41 52 41 52 which seems the only possible legato fingering. But as soon as I try to get faster my hand falls over itself because the reaction time of my fingers is evidently not good enough. Is that something that can be changed, so I can get my 4 & 1 fingers out of the way in the space of 0.11 seconds? This feels like a brain puzzle more than anything, or like running into a conceptual limitation in maths, but whilst I can with practice get to the point of alternating 41 and 52 and not get confused (I can also pat my head whilst rubbing my tummy) it doesn't seem to play out that way for my hand at speed.


The scherzo is full of this pattern, which requires rapidly restriking the top note of a chord. Again, the top note is usually initially given to the 3rd or 4th finger and it simply can't get off the note fast enough when I try a real Vivace assai, so I end up with unwanted ties.


I play the two upper voices in these bars (195-199) with the right hand because that's the only way that seems feasible. However when I play them at speed, the "hocketing" pattern between the two voices gets blurred and I end up with what sounds like just a bunch of semiquavers; the voices lose their independence. It's possible that slow practice would make it possible to play the voices more independently but I don't really see how.


Again, Schenker's fingering using the thumb repeatedly doesn't seem feasible (or maybe he just had insanely flexible thumbs, who knows). In this case though I'm not sure anything else is possible for me since I can't play sevenths with 52 and if I were to play e.g. G-F with 51 and then the lower F that follows the G with 2, the upper F would turn into a semiquaver, which is not what's written. How do you play semiquavers at crotchet = 144 with just your thumb, basically?

Thanks for your patience, I realise I'm quite annoying >.>

[georgey]

The scherzo is full of this pattern, which requires rapidly restriking the top note of a chord. Again, the top note is usually initially given to the 3rd or 4th finger and it simply can't get off the note fast enough when I try a real Vivace assai, so I end up with unwanted ties.

I haven’t played this work.  I don’t even play the piano.  On this item:  I remember attending a performance of this work at my college by a semi-local pianist that was well respected and earned a living as a performer.  This was more than 35 years ago.  She performed the piece very well with respectable tempos I thought except for this rhythmic figure in the Scherzo.  I think they ALL came out as ties if I remember.  I kept thinking as she was playing that if she would just relax and slow down and get a few “dum-dadum’s” to come out correctly (non-tied), the rest would follow correctly.  Kind of like priming a pump.  It never occurred to me until I heard this performance how difficult it must be to perform this Scherzo live as part of a complete performance of the work.

My advice:  In addition to practicing with strict dotted rhythm, practice also as non-dotted 8th notes and then relaxed dotted rhythm.  If they are all turning out as "ties" in a performance, sneak in a few non-dotted 8th notes rhythm to "prime the pump".  

[ronde_des_sylphes]

My advice:

1. Omit the first low Bb.
2. I think he's advising thumb on the low notes because they *aren't* marked legato. That said, if it's inconveniencing the legato of the top notes by throwing the hand off-balance, play them as "normal" sixth fingering.
3. Try rh 2, 41, 52, 31.
4. You're correct to use the rh, but play the separate groups with differing emphases.
5. I don't like his fingering. I think it's chosen for consistency across the groupings. I'd do 123211; 312112 (but your hands are smaller, so 1 on the first will be needed); 123121. There is room for individual choice in such passages, though.

[nw746]

My advice:  In addition to practicing with strict dotted rhythm, practice also as non-dotted 8th notes and then relaxed dotted rhythm.  If they are all turning out as "ties" in a performance, sneak in a few non-dotted 8th notes rhythm to "prime the pump".  

Hmm. I'm not sure slower practice has done much to improve my ability to play quickly though. I can try playing it as non-dotted quavers whilst lifting the upper finger off the note as quickly as possible anyway.

My advice:

1. Omit the first low Bb.
2. I think he's advising thumb on the low notes because they *aren't* marked legato. That said, if it's inconveniencing the legato of the top notes by throwing the hand off-balance, play them as "normal" sixth fingering.
3. Try rh 2, 41, 52, 31.
4. You're correct to use the rh, but play the separate groups with differing emphases.
5. I don't like his fingering. I think it's chosen for consistency across the groupings. I'd do 123211; 312112 (but your hands are smaller, so 1 on the first will be needed); 123121. There is room for individual choice in such passages, though.

1. I've tried that, as well as rolling the chord, but it doesn't really sound right and also it doesn't help me gain the ability to stretch that wide (or the other benefit of the passage which is strength and flexibility in the 4th and 5th fingers).
2. The other reason why using the thumb on every note is hard is because my thumb is still quite slow to move and I'm not sure how to speed it up. So I either end up with the bottom voice being extremely staccato which also sounds wrong, or I miss notes. I'll probably stick with the standard 6ths fingering for now and just practice scales and arpeggios and so on in 6ths to help convince my brain that it can actually do it :p
3. That's a good fingering but the 4th finger still gets stuck on the top F. Though I think my parents' piano has sticky action which doesn't help.
4. I will try that & see how it goes. I'll also play more Bach, I guess.
5. It's mostly the 11s at the ends that are problematic... I feel like it's probably not a big deal in performance to end every bar with 12 and sustain the top note with pedal, but I'd be curious to know what can be done to make using the thumb repeatedly in fast tempi easier.

[mike_lang]

I haven’t played this work.  I don’t even play the piano.  . . .

My advice: . . .

LEGENDARY!

[georgey]

LEGENDARY!

Don't forget my at the end.   

[georgey]

Hmm. I'm not sure slower practice has done much to improve my ability to play quickly though. I can try playing it as non-dotted quavers whilst lifting the upper finger off the note as quickly as possible anyway.

DISCLOSURE:  I don't know what I'm talking about.  

"I can try playing it as ...." This is not what I had in mind. Instead, here is my thought process and suggestion:

Say you can play the entire Scherzo as non-dotted quavers with good accuracy and sound and without "ties". (I suggest you try and practice this at your performance tempo. Just play it normally as if it were written as non-dotted quarvers.) Now when you try to play it with STRICT dotted quavers, you get many "ties".  Then there exists a RELAXED dotted rhythm (somewhere in between non-dotted and strict) that you can play without any or very few "ties".  

Now you say:  I can't play this with relaxed dotted rhythm.  Everyone will hate it.  I say:  They won't hate it as much as your "ties".  Eventually try to move the rhythm to a more strict dotted rhythm.  

You can fall back to less strict dotted rhythm in places (or even a few non-dotted) if you are having an off day or are playing "ties" due to fatigue or tension.  In a performance, for example, you could play the 1st 6 measures with very relaxed dotted rhythm just to get things started without "ties".

Of course this assumes you have fully explored fingering issues (such as Ronde's suggestion) and are playing with proper technique.

[georgey]

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