Piano Forum logo
September 26, 2017, 09:08:29 AM *
   Forum Home   Help Search  


Live Streamed Piano Recital with Murray McLachlan

A new piano recital series has been launched in Stockholm this fall. The first recital, with pianist Peter Jablonski took place on September 15 and today, you can hear British pianist Murray McLachlan play live from The Royal Academy of Fine Arts. Read more >>

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Was Chopin bisexual?  (Read 319 times)
mjames
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2036


« on: July 16, 2017, 01:59:08 AM »

Quote
How I want to see you; I would go 2 weeks without playing
to see you really, because mentally I see you every day. Don't
show this letter, because I'm ashamed of it. I don't know
whether there's any sense in it, because I haven't read it through.

To his male friend Jan Matsususususu back in 1825.

Like you could say he was overly-friendly or clingy but damn that is too much, enough to mae me suspicious. Was Chopin a little bit into sexy boys or was this just common in 1820s Polish culture?

Source: https://ia800500.us.archive.org/22/items/chopinsletters00chop/chopinsletters00chop.pdf

(there's a lot more homoerotic writing in there  Roll Eyes Grin Grin Grin)
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Pianism is my religion, Bach is my God, and Chopin's my prophet.
cuberdrift
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 364


« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 07:10:15 AM »

While we're at it, on surfing a bit about this topic on Google, I found an older topic on Pianostreet rather identical to this one.

Bernhard posted various alleged writings of Chopin to his women, including this:

*** you is my favourite occupation
Bed beats inspiration
I long for your lovely tits
So says your faithful Fritz


A short, apparently lewd poem...

...in English?

Never knew Chopin could write in English. Well, these writings seem to stem from research by a certain David Wright, and apparently he (or his organization) have written a certain thread in the Internet about questions of his sources.

I wonder how much of the accounts Bernhard wrote about has been proven factual multiple times, and how much of it is unproven and controversial.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
nw746
PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 39


« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2017, 09:55:17 AM »

Never knew Chopin could write in English. Well, these writings seem to stem from research by a certain David Wright, and apparently he (or his organization) have written a certain thread in the Internet about questions of his sources.
"My academic degrees were not purchased for $25 each and the tops of Corn Flake packets."

Well, that's a very specific denial to make.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
ronde_des_sylphes
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2103


« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2017, 11:39:25 AM »

There is certainly some very flowery writing in Chopin's correspondence with some of his male friends (the letters to Titus W.... are often cited in this respect). Of course, it was the style of the times.

George Sand certainly was bisexual; it shouldn't be difficult to find documentation. The Potocka letters (iirc, the "poem" is from there) are generally considered to be forgeries. My late teacher made a BBC documentary on them; sadly I think it's now deleted. When I mentioned the letters, and the forgery allegations, he said "well yes, but it's not as simple as that". Unfortunately I didn't get any more information, because the conversation moved on to gossip about d'Albert.

The good doctor appears to be something of an eccentric, obsessed by Elgar and blue panties, Britten and boys, how only a pervert could appreciate the Scriabin concerto, etc. Don't take my word for it, look around his website Wink
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

cuberdrift
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 364


« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 04:29:11 PM »

Which of these "dirty" letters are NOT forgeries?

And for the forgeries, who forged them? And when?

I remember one letter mentioning about how the "life-giving fluid" of man should be preserved for the creation of great art instead of wasted on the body of a woman, or something like that...and Chopin even made a metaphor concerning his compositions (i.e. the fluid) now within the woman (forgot her name). Is this one a forgery, too?
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
dogperson
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 754


« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 05:07:04 PM »

The question is: why in the world does anyone care about Chopin's  sexual orientation?  It should not change the way you play his music, it should not even change  whether you want to play his music   

This reminds me when in earlier centuries female composers and authors hid behind a male pseudonym to publish.   To have a thread pop up like this in 2017,  is a sad commentary.  I thought this kind of concern was limited to 13-year-old little boys, not grown-up men
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
mjames
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2036


« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2017, 12:35:14 AM »

The question is: why in the world does anyone care about Chopin's  sexual orientation?  It should not change the way you play his music, it should not even change  whether you want to play his music   

It's light-hearted speculation, curiosity for curiosity's sake. Of course it "doesn't matter" Chopin's music is still Chopin's music, but it's not crazy or far-fetched to be interested in the lives and personalities of your idols. I mean there's a huge reason why people invest in reading the biographies of historical figures...

Quote
This reminds me when in earlier centuries female composers and authors hid behind a male pseudonym to publish.   To have a thread pop up like this in 2017,  is a sad commentary.  I thought this kind of concern was limited to 13-year-old little boys, not grown-up men

Sorry to disappoint. Cheesy
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Pianism is my religion, Bach is my God, and Chopin's my prophet.
mjames
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2036


« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2017, 12:43:49 AM »

There is certainly some very flowery writing in Chopin's correspondence with some of his male friends (the letters to Titus W.... are often cited in this respect). Of course, it was the style of the times.

This is so fascinating if it's the case. How is it that this sort of style became common in an extremely anti-homosexual catholic nation like Poland? I'm way beyond convinced that it's just symbolic writing (Chopin missing Titus' lips definitely threw me off) and not meant to be taken literally, but it's just weird and hilarious to see men acting like this in a such a homophobic culture.


Edit: Bernard cites the same Titus letters haha, now after re-considering I'm not so sure anymore but I did enjoy reading this:

Quote
“Oh my sweetest Phindela, think of how much of that precious fluid I have wasted on you ramming away at you to no good purpose. I have not given you a baby and think how many musical ideas have been squandered inside you. Ballads, Polonaises, perhaps even an entire concerto have been lost forever up your D flat major, I cannot tell you how many. I have been so deeply immersed in my love for you I have hardly created anything, everything creative went straight from my cock into your “des durka”. Works that could have seen the light of day are forever drowned in your D flat major. You are now carrying so much of my music in your womb that you are pregnant with my compositions. The saints were right when they said that women were the gates of hell. No, no, I take that back. You are the gates of heaven. For you I will give up fame, work, everything."

Comforting to know that the immortal was just as hungry for des durka as normal men are.  Grin Grin Grin Grin

PG 18 thread
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Pianism is my religion, Bach is my God, and Chopin's my prophet.
ronde_des_sylphes
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2103


« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2017, 11:18:39 AM »

The "sweetest Phindela" is of course Delphina (anagram) Potocka, so the quoted letter is instantly suspect bearing in mind the forgery angle. I could easily be wrong, but it occurs to me that the quoted segment may well be written as either as an emulation or a parody of Balzac, who was a virtual contemporary. Balzac was notorious for bemoaning that he'd "lost a novel in a brothel that afternoon."  Grin
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

cuberdrift
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 364


« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 05:11:10 PM »

I've read a few articles about these bawdy Potocka letters in the internet, and they've said that they were a forgery, probably written during or after the 1940s.

They claim that Chopin's writing that the "life-giving fluid" should not be wasted on women is a much later Freudian concept, thus being pretty much nonexistent in the 1800s.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  


Need more info or help?


Search pianostreet.com - the web's largest resource of information about piano playing:



 
Jump to:  


Most popular classical piano composers:
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!

o