WHICH GRAND IS BEST?

[amy]

hey guys. i need some advice. if i make it into university for music, mom will buy me a grand piano.
please.. be kind and tell me which ones are good quality..performance notch...good sound, not stiff keys that are hard to press.. etc etc.... for a good price!!!
i need to know...  not a steinway. cuz i cant afford it.. but... the usual.... but nice...
thanks
-amy

[rachfan]

Hi amy,

You really have two questions here: Which grand is best?  And, which grand is best for me within my budget?

It's impossible for anyone to answer the first question without some bias.  Briefly, I like the American sound far better than the European or Japanese piano sound (others will disagree, as it's a matter of personal taste).  So my favorite grands are Baldwin, Steinway, and Mason & Hamlin.  But they are all probably priced out of your range.  A very good and more moderately priced American piano is Charles R. Walter.  So onto your second question.

Most German pianos are quite expensive.  Prices on Eastern European brands like Petrof and Estonia are more reasonable.  Try those brands if you can find them nearby.  If not, your next stop would be Japanese pianos such as Yamaha and Kawai.  Or perhaps Samick (Korean) or Young Chang (Chinese).  

Below that are several other brands I cannot recommend or mention here.  In general, try not to buy a grand less than 5'7" in length.  The longer the piano, the longer the strings and the richer the sound.  Visit all the dealers near you and see what they have to offer, and try the pianos out, including the used ones.  The best actions are made by Renner, but are mostly found on 7' grands and larger.  So in dealing with a more mundane action like Pratt, you'll have to determine what is comfortable to you.  Always remember though, you're always better off with a slightly heavier than too light an action.  It affords better control, evenness in playing, and enhancement of your technique.  Any teacher will confirm that.

See if you can buy or borrow The Piano Book 4th Edition by Larry Fine.  It has more information than you'll ever want to know about buying pianos and piano rankings.  He also has a "Supplement" book that talks about pricing by brand.   Loads of information there.

Good luck shopping!

[rich_galassini]

RachFan,

Great post! I would add that you should play as many pianos as possible, Amy.

Learn what you like and dislike in each of the models and brands. Then.... enjoy!

[frederic]

Steinways are not that expensive.
It may seem so because nowadays nearly all the pianists play on Steinways. But these are concert grands so they are...
You can get a nice 6ft Steinway for quite a fair price.
But yeah...

Bossendorfer are very expensive though...

I would suggest a Yamaha or a Kawai but it really depends on what suits you most.

[amee]

What makes a Steinway so sought after?

[frederic]

cos most pianists play on it for some reason
good for everything

didn't it say on the great pianists of the 20th century CDs that 90% or was it 70% of todays pianists prefer steinways.

[amee]

Doesn't the Steinway have very quick action/light hammers or something?  I can't quite remember.

[rich_galassini]

Amy and Frederic,

Although Steinway builds a wonderful piano, there are many other brands that are just as wonderful or even better.

So, why do so many pianists play Steinway?

The company has made it a mission to service performers like no other piano company in history. They have given away their pianos, paid handsome fees in return for playing their pianos, provided free pianos for concerts, etc. basically, they invented the word image when it comes to pianos.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with this. It is part of the way that they have chosen to do business over the long haul and it has proven to be very successful.

To learn more read "The Steinway Saga" by D.W. Fostle. The author used personal diaries of some Steinway family members and minutes from corporate board meetings as resources. (It airs some good dirty laundry as well if you are into gossip)

I hope this helps,

[tosca1]

Well said Richard!  I too would advise you amy to try as many different pianos as you can. Do not be shy about trying pianos that you may not be able to afford as that gives you a better idea of the range and quality of instruments that are on sale.  With pianos first impressions count and something inside you will tell you when you have found the piano that you really want.
Good luck,
Robert.

[amy]

Hey guys, its AMY.. thanks alot for helping me out. everyone here is so passionate about music. thank you ... very informative  the piano i will get is going to be my present if i get into university for music...so..i think i'll really have to start testing them all out.
a) Can you guys telll me the price range for grand pianos?

b)  baby grand better, or worth a few thousand dollars less?

[frederic]

I thought that Mr Steinway had many clever sons and they continued the family business very well.

Anyway. Amy, i would advise you not to get a baby grand. Because with a baby grand the strings are the same length as large uprights so it won't give you what you want from a grand. If you have set your heart on grands then i would suggest grands that are 5ft or bigger. Anything smaller than 5ft would not be terribly good as a grand. But this might not be the case everytime...

[amee]

Yes even 5ft grands can be a bit dangerous...the strings aren't long enough to give lots of sound.  In price range, it depends if you want to buy a new or used piano.  It can differ a lot, especially with grands.  If you want a grand, try and get the biggest one your room and budget allows.  As for piano make...it depends what you like.  Play around, play lots of pianos, and see what makes a good sound.

[tosca1]

It is certainly not worth buying a baby grand piano for musical reasons.  The only advantages that a baby grand has over a good upright is its appearance and the horizontal strings and soundboard which work better acoustically than their vertical placement in the upright piano.  The smaller the grand piano the more problematic the instrument becomes in terms of its action, the scaling, tone quality and power.

Cost depends on whether you are looking at a brand new piano or a used one.  Personally, I would go for a top of the line upright piano rather than a grand piano shorter than 5'.

Regards,
Robert.

[frederic]

i wouldn't say go for the BIGGEST grand you can fit into the house.
Sometimes you can get concert grands (9ft or 10ft) which are not as good as a simple yamaha upright. But baby grands are not worth the effort and money.

I think you should seriously consider Yamaha or Kawaii.

[amy]

Thank you everyone for helping me out!
my next questions are :

- for a regular sized home...i think i can fit a 7' grand in my family parlour/room.  am i safe to take a 6', or would it be much better to take the 7' ?

- Does it matter what kinda of frame or material my grand is?

- What colour would you get? black?, white?

[dinosaurtales]

First of all, if you have room for a seven footer, great!  That opens up your options, but youdidn't say what the price range was.  SO, like RachFan says, I would get a copy of The Piano Book by Larry Fine - it's available with a pricing supplement on www.pianobook.com.  It will talk about the differences in various brands, and will break them down into categories that will make it a bit easier to digest.  It worked for me!  Be prepared to spend some time looking at pianos - it won't happen over night.  I spent over a year playing pianos.  You won't have to tak ethat long, but it's not like test driving a car, where you can just say *I like it - order me one*.  You pretty much have to play THE piano.

Good luck !  It's definitely fun shopping!  and you can shop for free!

[tosca1]

Hello amy,
Go for the 7' piano which as most of us have said will be a   "real" grand piano.  In particular, in a grand piano that size you should get the great, sonorous bass sound.  I would go for a black ebony finish as if you want to upgrade later it would add to its resale value and a  black piano always looks classy.  Any 7' foot piano built within the last 100 years will have a full iron plate and the technology of the instrument has hardly changed since then.

Good luck,
Robert.

[amy]

Thanks Robert...
i will go for a 7' or more... ( it doesnt matter from that point right, if i were to go for a bigger one?)
anyways..
my price range is = parent's pocket..
and if im not mistaken.. grands start from $20 000 after tax (canadian dollars) or am i underestimating?
i think they will buy me a decent 7' grand...maybe a yamaha or whatever i can get a hold of... so much do you think that would be?
-thank you

[tosca1]

Dear amy,
It will be a marvellous gesture of generosity and support for your piano studies for your parents to give you  a nice 7' grand piano.
I am not familiar with piano prices in Canada but I would guess that  a brand new 7' Yamaha would be considerably more than $20,000.  Here in NZ they are about NZ$55,000 new.  Of course you can  buy  a good one much more cheaply second hand and there are no doubt some beautifully maintained used instruments for  sale around the $20,000 mark.

I would not buy a used piano more than 40 years old unless it was exceptionally good or had been reconditioned.  

Your family will never regret the investment and it will be an enormous encouragement for your piano playing.

Kind regards,
Robert.

[amy]

hey robert.. thanks for helping me out.

i guess over 20 000$ CAN sounds right...  i wouldnt buy any used pianos older than 10 years... so dont worry.. i just get that awkward feeling ya know?.. but the advantages to a used would be: richer, more "broken-in" sound, right??

- also, when can you test out pianos, other than in the store?.. cuz i dont think they'll let you sit there for hours  upon days just playing on their showcase one..

thank you

[dinosaurtales]

Don't worry about playing a lot in the stores.  I was self-conscious about that at first, too, until I began torealize that they expect you to play several pianos, maybe for hours, so you can get comfortable with the sound and all.  Believe it or not, the ONLY store that made me feel uncomfortable playing much was the Steinway dealer here in town.  All the other places I went, even Steinway ones, were quite accustomed to pianists playing for long periods of time.  If you find a *slow* day in the store, they can busy themselves in their offices, or on restroation projects and will leave you quite alone if you wish.  It's really the only way to get familiar. - AND it's a bunch of fun!

[tosca1]

Dear amy,
Yes, you are taking a very sensible approach.  Used grand pianos within 10 years should be much cheaper than new. After about 10 years with inflation a grand piano should not lose its value but (because of inflation) it may gain on its original purchase price especially if it is a quality piano.

You are right too about a used piano sounding better than a brand new piano that has not been "played in".  I am sure that provided the piano has been well housed, played and maintained,  even after 5 years, it will sound better than new.

This has definitely been my own experience with my piano and after 5 years from new the bass sounds richer and the treble sings more.  My tuner/technician has also noticed this.

You should have no problem trying pianos at dealerships and in fact you are doing the dealer a service by playing the piano provided you treat it with care and respect as I am sure you will.

I am delighted that your dream may become a reality.
Robert.

[amy]

thank you robert
you are very helpful.....
i guess i will see what the stores have for me.. i live in toronto, you?
hopefully i'll get a used.. maybe about 5-10 years old... how much cheaper do you think it will be?

which would you (personally) rather get?
a Yamaha, Steinway, Baldwin, or Estonia?

-thank you
p.s. do you have an email address?

[coolice_56]

Hi Amy

I'm living in Canada too, and thinking about buying a grand piano as well. The problem is that it's really hard to find a decent used grand piano in Canada. It's much easier to find one in the US, if your willing to buy it from there. I'm looking for a good deal on a Boston piano. I really like the touch and sound on it. If I cant find any after a month or so, I'm going to go with a Yamaha. Here's a few links that might help with the price question you have:

Pricing and small reviews on yamaha pianos.The prices are in american dollars:

https://www.scopereviews.com/piano.html

Prices on the Boston collection:

https://www.bluebookofpianos.com/boston.htm

anyways, good luck....
ice

[tosca1]

Dear amy,
My first choice would be Steinway.  This is the most expensive choice.  My second choice would be Yamaha as I am not familiar with the other two brands that you have mentioned.

I live in Auckland, NZ and my email is: tosca1@ihug.co.nz

Good luck,
Robert.

[Bosendorfer_214]

I recently got my new 7' Bosendorfer and think it is the finest piano I have played.  I looked at the new Steinway B's and some used D's and found that they had no character but were all dull and lifelessly uniform.  I have found that through the internet you can find just about anything.  For those of you who are looking for a good new piano that will not break your bank, the Petrof is the way to go.  I have owned two of them, the 50'' upright and the 6'4 grand.  I loved them both.  keep looking and don't be afraid to leave your state to find a good one.  When you find the piano that you want you will be willing to fly half way across the planet just to play it.
Happy hunting,

Nic

[amee]

What's a Steinway B or Steinway D?  Is that the size or what?

[dinosaurtales]

The B is the 7 foot, the D is the BIG 9 foot concert grand.  You will get familiar with the model names for the brands when you start going to stores and playing them.  DEFINTELY look at LOTS of pianos.  I think it's a big mistake to just get something that seems good right away. You'll own it for a long time, and play it a lot!

[amy]

HEY guys.... here's my replies to the following:

Robert: thanks man.... yeah.. ill def. try looking for the steinway B and the petrof...and the Yamaha... steinway and petrof are both german right?.. so whats the difference between sounds from the german and the asian pianos?   Also...which keys have medium action..(my fingers are a bit weak..so heavy keys is Really bad for me)  and..... how much money difference is a steinway b (7') and a steinway d (9')  an extra couple thousand???...

thank you..
-----------------------
to coolice 56.....  thank you... yeah.. im finding it hard to get some pianos in canada.. i dont know about buying them from boston... did u actually go there and play their piano?... cuz wow... thatd be several trips just to touch those keys!?!>.. and you're also paying american dollars right?...  thanks
---------------------
to Borgendorfer (sorry if i mispelled)
 i've never heard of that kind of piano! is it very pricey compared to the steinway?..... and how is it a nicer sound?  do tell.. thank you.

-AMy

[Bosendorfer_214]

Amy-

You had some questions in your last email... I'll do my bes to answer some of them.  The retail price of a Steinway B (6'10'')is I believe $58,000 give or take a couple grand.  The retail price of a Steinway D (9') is i believe $88,000.  If you are willing to go smaller Steinway makes an L (5'10'') Steinway rounds it to 6'.  You can get a used L that needs some work for about 10,000. If you want one that needs minimal work (keep in mind that any piano that you buy will need some work, tuning, viocing, regulation) you will probably end up spending about $16,000 or $17,000.  An L is not going to have the same sound as lush as a B or D but there ar some pretty fine L's out there.

There are two branches of the Steinway factory, New York Steinways, and Hamburg Steinways.  Most of the Hamburgs are in Manhattan and cost considerably more than New Your Steinways.  Usually when you read Steinway on this site they are referring to New York Steinways.  (Horowitz swore by his New York Steinway)

Petrofs are pianos that are made in Prague, the Czech Republic.  They are all handmade since 1864.  They have Renner actions and a traditional big bombastic bright sound.  The feel of the actions in there pianos ranges from heavy to medium light.  Keep in mind that ther is nothing wrong with a heavy action.  As a 10 year old I played on an extremely heavy Petrof Upright for a year and then moved on to a heavier Petrof 6'4'' grand which I had for over three years.  It really helped my hand strength and technique.  Their Grand sizes are 5'3'', 5'8'', 6'4'',7'9'' and 9'3''.  You can pick up a 6'4 for a little over 20K these days.

I am almost 15 and have a Bosendorfer model 214 (7') that my parents generously bought for me.  In my opinion the Bosendorfer is the finest piano made today.  Their company was founded in 1828 in Vienna, Austria.They produce on average, 100 pianos a year, opposed to Steinway whose numbers are in the thousands. Teir actions are firm, and flowing.  Their sound is pure and powerful.   Their sound is much cleaner than that of a Steinway. Bosendorfer makes the 170 (5'8''), the 195 (6'2''), the 200 (6'7''), the 214 (7'), the 225 (7'4'' with 92 keys, 4 extra in the bass), the 275 (9' also with 4 extra notes), the 280 (9'2'' with 88 keys) and the Imperial 295 (9'6'' with 97 keys it goes all the way down to the C).  The retail price of a Bosendorfer 9'6'' is $175,000.  They are more expensive that the Steinway and are very much worth it.  

if i were you I would stay away from Samicks. And if you are going to buy an Asian Piano you should stick with the Yamaha.  But from what you have said the Petrof is probably going to be your best bet.

Nic

[amy]

Bosendorfer,...
thank you soo much for that in depth explanation... sounds like bosendorfer pianos are great.. ill check them out. ill also look at the steinways and yamaha's..
my problem is that the petrof keys are heavy...  because im used to my zimmermann (where the keys are incredibly light...like you wouldnt believe).
thanks

[coolice_56]

Hi amy

I first heard about Boston from my piano teacher, then I played one in a friends house. Boston is designed by Steinway and made by Kawai. There are definately some shops in Toronto that carry boston, which you can go and try out.

[amp]

Amy- I think you will find that the Steinways have heavier action than you are used to, altough some are very light. It is really different. Dino is right, you really have to shop for a good Steinway. At school, I play in a given week about 10 different Steinways, there is only one I love. But, then other people don't like the one I do, so it's all personal taste. I have found with Yamaha's is that they don't seem to have much character. They look beautiful, and sound beautiful, but not much more than that. It's like getting a "B" on a term paper, overall great grade, but could do better. I think if you want to buy a piano for longevity, you should aim higher, provided you can finiace it.

Of course, I love Steinway, Baldwin, Mason and Hamlin.

[OZPIANOMAN]

One of the questions asked in this discussion was for advice about the retail prices for grand pianos.

I recently discovered this wonderful offering from the Blue Book web site.
Don't know how up to date the list is - auto clock probably updates the page daily, but take a look... you can compare them all - uprights and grands!


https://www.bluebookofpianos.com/Subscriber3925.htm

regards from OzPianoman  

[sprinterpd]

I'm going to be in the $25K US range and I have a bit of an off-beat question.  For that money, I can get a Kawai, Yamaha, or Petrof Grand in the 5'10" range, OR a Steinway 52" upright.  
I will clearly be playing them all before making a purchase of that magnitude, but I already know that I prefer the sound of a Kawai over a Yamaha, am I the only one?
Michael

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

Amy, I know several Canadian piano techs, some who also sell pianos. If you would email me I can put you in touch with them. No commitment, just the help of subscribing to this piano forum.

[Pianotuna]

Hi,

I'd suggest you have a look at the instruments at the Robert Lowrey Company in Toronto. They have a great number of high end grands.

I'd also suggest you have a look at my website at https://us.geocities.com/drpt1948/ and the article called "Piano's On Trial"

[amy]

hey guys! thank you for replying to my initial question...
thanks pianotuna for your suggestion.. i shall check it out.

as for Sprinterpd... were u only able to purchase those pianos in the 5'10 models..and nothing of the larger grand sizes?? 25ooo U.S. is worth a lot Canadian... couldn't you get a Steinway with that much? (before tax maybe) ?    i heard some dont like kawai... but i dont know...  the petrof's good.. and so i yamaha.. its up to you!.. im no expert tho...  i find the asian pianos have a more crisp tone and sound to it.. don;t you agree???
ciao
-Amy

[sprinterpd]

although I want to hear for myself, I have been advised against the Steinway uprights for a number of reasons that do NOT apply to their grands.  The reason that I'm looking at or under 6' is that it is the limit of my floorspace.  I have to have room to actually put it in the room, you know?  I live in California near the bay area and you wouldn't BELIEVE the cost of just the little place I bought.  
As to Asian vs. European models I need to play more.  I have enough time to visit nearly every dealer in the area before my car is paid off and can get the piano.  To my fingers and ears, the Kawai is a wonderful instrument.  Most of my lessons in my teen-age years was on a Yamaha 5'6" so that feeling will be engrained into my fingers as the standard to which others will be compared.  To me (again, personal preference) the Kawai RX-3 has a better feel and sound than the Yamaha.  That is the limit of my testing thus far.  
For the cost of a piano, I think the addition price of Larry Fine's book is a smart investment.  
I also need to play some quality uprights.  We had a baldwin upright in the house growing up (new when I was ten) and I don't think it was a pile of firewood by any standard.  
I think a piano purchase for a serious hobbyist like myself should balance price and performance and space available.  Never wanted to learn to juggle, but that's life
Michael

[Bosendorfer_214]

Sprinterpd-

I highly suggest that you purchase Larry Fine's book.  As for your options in pianos...  You will be best off getting the largest piano that you can afford.  With 25 large you can get a pretty nice piano.  i have friends who like their Kawais but I have played on many, and find that after about 5-10 years you will find that you will not like the sound, among other things.  In my opinion, (take it for what it is worth) the Kawais are great for schools but are not long term pianos.  Yamahas are better but if not meticulously cared after they will not age well either.  I still recomend Petrof.  If you can up your budget by about 5,000 you can get a couple year old Bosendorfer 5'8.  I just recently got a new 7' Bosendorfer and think it is great.  Steinway also makes an L (5'10'') good examples can be found for about 25-30, 000.  if you can afford a grand DON"T buy an upright.  you will kick yourself later.  I apologize for being so blunt, but I think most of you in the forum will agree with me.
Happy Hunting-

Nic

P.S. Youy should start a fresh topic on your situation so that it can be more easily accessable.

[Steinwayman]

If you are looking for a 7 foot or larger Yamaha grand, there are lots of used C7s around in great condition with relatively low pricetags ($20K US or lower).  They are pretty reliable if unexciting instruments. I had a Yamaha grand (C3) for close to 25 years; actually it aged quite well and required relatively little maintenance.  I finally bought a lovely Hamburg Steinway C, though, and sold the Yamaha last year. I was sorry to see it go; it was an old friend. The Hamburg is really more similar in many ways to a Bosendorfer than a New York Steinway, but really combines the best of both in my opinion.  Also, the quality of workmanship is quite extraordinary--certainly on a par with Bosendorfer or Bechstein.

There are many used Steinway Bs around, in all sorts of conditions. In my search I did come across quite a few nice ones (rebuilt or relatively new) in the $30-40K US range.

[amy]

thanks steinwayman...
i havent started looking around yet.. i will when summer starts...
but im interested in a steinway.. a yamaha.. mason and hamlin.. or a petrof..
what is your opinion between the yamaha and the petrof?
thanks
-amy

[chopiszte]

Stiff keys are good (not too stiff but you don't want them light).  You'll freak out later when you come to a stiff piano if you practice on a light one, and this will be a major problem if you want to be a pianist.

[amy]

hey there chopitsze

thats my problem.
my zimmermannn upright's keys are extremely thin, and light.
when i play even 3 scales on a yamaha grand ( this peticular one at school)

it KIlls me! my fingers get tired already!

-bye

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

There is no reason you should suffer with a too heavy or even too light action (touch) These problems can be fixed by any competant tech.

[dj]

well, i personally love steinway, but ur gonna have to look long and hard b4 u find a steinway grand 4 under $20,000 that u will b happy with.....for the price range ur looking at, i would recommend estonia all the way....i played on a 7' yamaha just recently for a competition, and i personally like my 5'6" estonia better, the tones are not as harsh and it sounds much cleaner and richer.

now, as to the action, don't be afraid of a stiffer feel. when i was piano shopping, i was scared out of my wits that i wasn't gonna b able 2 play on a "good" piano because i didn't think i could handle the stiff action; however, after playing a lowrey upright all my life, i couldn't believe how much more in control of the keyboard i felt with "heaver" keys. yamaha definately has a looser feel than estonia; however, the more challenging the music gets, the more u r gonna want a tighter action. im sorry i can't say much about petroff because i have never in my life played one, but i've heard they are comparable to estonia.

as for price, im pretty sure u could get a brand new 6'3" estonia for under $25,000.....i didn't do much used piano shopping, but obviously the prices would go down for used pianos.

o yeah and hey, i didn't read one post saying anything about hand-made vs. factory made pianos. im not a brilliant piano expert but im pretty sure handmade beats the heck out of factory made (estonia and steinway being handmade....yamaha and kawai being factory made)....just something else to think about.

well i've put more than my 2 cents in so im gonna shut up now.....just do somoe shopping b4 u make your decision.

[amy]

hey DJ thanks....
mhm... yes i would think handmade is always better..in terms of pianos..  and for estonia.. yes.. i heard the keys and tones are a lot crisper and sweeter, but theres problems with the piano itself.. they're not very reliable or something like that... needs a lot of work and care....   as for petrof.. they're good.. better than the estonia.. in terms of what i was talking about.
steinway for under 20 000 U.S. or canadian?
i wuld think U.S.   so what's a reasonble price for a reasonable steinway then?
thanks

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

Hi dj, I would be interested to know what you understand by the terms handmade and factory made.

Steinway has a factory, in fact they used to be most of Queens as I understand.

[dj]

well to tell the truth, i actually have no idea what is meant by handmade and factory made....i always thought it was self explanitory and i've played "handmade" and "factory" made pianos and i liked the handmade ones better and i've heard it said that the handmade ones r better....but as 2 what parts of the piano r actually made by hand i really never took the time 2 do any research on that. i was just going by what i 've heard said and what i've heard played.

and amy, if u think u like petroff better than estonia, i really can't argue with u on that point cuz, as i've said, i never played a petroff.........but i've also never heard anything said about estonia being unreliable......i guess i'll find out soon if they are (given that i have an estonia) well i guess i'll look into it......just keep playing different pianos and whatever u decide is best 4 u, go 4 it. i think it's impossible 2 say which piano is the "best" because so much depends on the musicians preferences.

[dj]

o yeah and i was talking about US dollars (sorry about that) and the price of a brand new steinway grand that was the same size as my estonia was over 30,000...again, i don't know much about used prices so that might b something worth looking into.